ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[totoxio]

Hello everybody. First post in this forum, which I find fascinating. I'd like to thank you all for the useful findings you share, that have resulted in a noticieable improvement in my audio enjoyment. 

 

My dac is a Chord Mojo, which I consider ultra sensitive to noise on its inputs (especially USB), so I migrated to coax, using Singxer F1, which is also very sensitive to the quality of DC it is fed in.

 

The POE DC / DC over CAT cable tweak using Ugreen CAT7 round cable brought an inmediate noticeable change which I like, but there's one thing that worries me, and it is the fact that I have to lower volume on my Mojo around 2db to get to the same volume than when I don't use the POE trick. The thing is that if I use the DAC's optical input, totally galvanic isolated by nature, I need to increase the volume instead of decreasing with the POE. This makes me wonder that maybe I might be introducing some kind of noise with the CAT cable that creates pleasant coloration, but coloration after all. It feels like if I was using an equalizer to create a smiley face eq, with more aparent width and separation, but without the phase changes that usually come with using eq.

 

Singxer+regular DC cable --> Baseline

Singxer+POE ---> Need to decrease 2db volume

Optical input (no noise) ---> Need to increase 2-3db volume to get to baseline

 

Is there any explanation for this difference in volume with/without POE and using optical input?

 

 

 

[totoxio]

@bit01  Thank you... Ugreen CAT7 flat cable on the way. I will report as soon as I can try it.

[totoxio]

@bit01 Is the flat Tera Grand similar in construction to the flat Ugreen Cat7? Because I tried the Ugreen last night... It was pure audio bliss!. I think it's better than the round Ugreen, a bit smoother, darker and slightly better midrange. And you were right, almost no volume increase. Both my round and flat Ugreen Cat7 are not fully broken in yet, so I'll report back in a few days.

[totoxio]

Thank you @bit01

 

This is some interesting information: If I understand correctly, ethernet cables could maybe act as a common mode noise filter, in part because each pair of conductors is twisted at a different rate. 

 

Could this explain the magic?

 

https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/data-center/some-interesting-twists-about-ethernet-cabling/

[totoxio]

I just realized that wushuliu had posted some very interesting info regarding this topic (twisting rate on ethernet cable pairs) on page 3.

 

[totoxio]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Do either of you have another idea or explanation as to the cause of the positive impact of these various DC and network cables on sound quality observed here?

Well, not really. They will be all speculation until someone actually tests this cables with the right equipment. But that doesn't stop us from enjoying this POE trick. It's very fun actually, the cable swapping, the differences among cable brands, flat vs. round... And above all it's so inexpensive!

[totoxio]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Well it definitely is NOT dielectric absorption, it is a high frequency ac issue, the main thing being ac not dc as we are discussing with these cables. Sorry but we can't ignore physics. 

 

Whichever the cause is, it seems that it's not blocked by galvanic isolation. 

[totoxio]

I use a Singxer F1 to feed my Chord Mojo. It has isolation after the conversion to I2S  and a DC-DC isolator. I use a Jitterbug, a LT3045 board and a ferrite bead before the Singxer to filter some high freq noise. Not as effective as more complete options, I guess, but I read that people who use those solutions are reporting the same benefits with the CAT cables for DC. 

[totoxio]

Thanks @mansr

 

I understand that my setup is somewhat limited, but is improving (CAT for DC made a noticeable difference). This doesn't change the fact that people with much better setups and isolation schemes are reporting the same benefits. So my reasoning is A) In case CAT cables are acting like filters, the kind of noise they are filtering is not blocked by these better setups or B) The benefits have nothing to do with noise blocking.

[totoxio]

I forgot to add as a possibility: C) There are no objective benefits by usinc CAT for DC, just a coloration that we like. (Just a possiblility).

[totoxio]

A Ugreen round CAT7 cable is less than $6 on amazon, plus the passive POE injectors around $7. It would be awesome if you could test them. Certainly a few people and myself would be very thankful for that!

 

I'd like to add that I'm sure there are much better solutions, but none at this price, which I think is the main point.

[totoxio]

@Bricki I will try 2m uGreen round CAT7 tonight. I have been using 1m round and flat uGreen. I will report my first impressions tomorrow. The song I use the most for testing is Babylon sisters, by Steely Dan. It has a great dynamic range, bass, vocals, treble and also shows any sibilances very clearly.

 

 

[totoxio]

7 hours ago, marce said:

A few links and a screen shot of my EMC folder from my collection of electronic based data, should provide plenty of information regarding EMC....

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/APEC-2002.pdf

http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-095.pdf

https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/anablog/4309627/EMC-RFI-SI-consultant-Henry-Ott-has-a-new-book

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/aug-ptk.pdf

http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/keitharmstrong/design_techniques1.html

https://incompliancemag.com/article/complying-with-the-eus-emc-directive-without-3rd-party-testing/

http://www.vicorpower.com/dc-dc-filters/qpi

 

This is great and useful information. Thank you!

[totoxio]

2 hours ago, Quadman said:

Then around 1:30AM I played my most frequent tracks some live, some acoustic, some rock and blues.  I then realized on these tracks that I have heard several hundred times that the speakers were just not there, not once did I hear a sound that came near a speaker the sound was behind and to the sides of the speakers depth went well beyond my back wall, it was as if the sound came from my acoustic panels behind the speakers.  Now the system came really close to this level before but this was just a bit different more real in an eerie life like kind of a way.  Transparency was not much different, I ended up playing about 1 click down on the volume knob with cat 8, depth and width really was not that much deeper and wider but this FELT different, more organic, more real.  All the audiophile adjectives were there but the feeling was real.

 

 

 

What cable length were you using at 1:30 a.m.?

[totoxio]

2 minutes ago, Quadman said:

Same that I used all evening.  30" from S11 to LT3045 boards, before was 1m uGreen, 13" from Belleson PSU to regen before was 1m ugreen, 38" from S11 to lt3045 boards before was about the same, 1m ugreen.

 

Thanks. Great post BTW.

[totoxio]

17 minutes ago, bit01 said:

It is possible that  residual differential AC noise on the DC +ve is further reduced (filtered) via crosstalk to -ve pairs via coupling of the individual shields. Somewhat demo'd by this little experiment (no affiliation).

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0060/T1100264/001/Cable Crosstalk Test_v1.pdf

 

Some folks report better SQ by simply inserting the CAT7/8 into the existing wiring, thus suggesting a resulting noise reduction.

Exactly! I posted this reasoning on the now closed thread on another forum. That maybe some leakage is finding its way to ground through crosstalk.

[totoxio]

@genjamon Have you tried uGreen round? I have both 1m round and flat versions, and I found flat version to produce a softer/smoother sound than round version. Perhaps is it the same you describe as white wash? I tend to prefer smoother sound but thats just me. Round version sounds a bit livelier, but still conserves this "rightness" in sound.

[totoxio]

@genjamon First, thank you for your detailed description of how you compare uGreen flat to Supra cables. While your impressions are totally different than mine, this is not a right or wrong situation. You know, different ears, different systems, even different goals. But after your excellent review, I now think that trying the Supra cables is a must. I will do a comparison when I get them.

 

I think you may hear a difference once you add the LT3045 in-line. That's the way I have it. I'd like to point out that the POE injector and the CAT cables are an addition to my system, they have not replaced anything. I still use a 30 cm Canare 4S6 with Oyaide plugs  and a micro usb adaptor between the LT3045 board and the iDefender that feeds my Singxer F1. The POE trick comes only before the LT3045 because I think that while the CAT7 is doing some good, it is still a cable, no matter how insulated or twisted it is. So, this EMI/RFI they are introducing to the system has to be filtered out somehow. (I also use a ferrite bead).

 

BTW, I also plan to keep my POE injector intact. This cable swapping thing is mindblowing!. One night I prefer a certain cable, next night the other, depending on mood and type of music. Almost like different EQ presets but subtler. But as I wrote before, I don't hear any of the disadvantages of EQing. For example, if I boost the bass with UAPP, it sounds looser. With POE the bass sounds more noticeable but tighter! And the midrange sounds just right! So, no phase shift and no bleeding into other frequencies I guess? 

 

 

[totoxio]

3 minutes ago, genjamon said:

So yeah, not really worth comparing our impressions side by side and expecting consistencies IMO.

 

In other words, that's exactly what I said. Glad we agree. 

 

Cheers.

[totoxio]

Question: Are dielectric absorption and insulation resistance the same or related?

 

Mr. JS mentioned something about dielectric absortion as one of the possible causes for this POE discovery. After that, marce replied "

"John, I cannot see how dielectric absorption can have any effect at DC... Even low frequencies it has minimal effect at DC it will have none? Puzzled".

 

These CAT cables strands are very thin, and proportionally, the insulation is higher (maybe). The cheaper CAT cables also use PVC as insulation material. So maybe there's a lot of insulation resistance going on. Combining both posts (and yours), maybe there's some atenuation going on for AC leakages because they travel in the outside layer of the CAT cables by skin effect, closer to insulation than the DC. So, more resistance to AC than to DC, so AC filtering.

 

Maybe I'm saying nonsense, but hey, it's just another theory.

[totoxio]

I've been using 2m uGreen round cat 7 for the whole week. I like it better than 1m flat and round, same brand. It puzzles me the fact that a longer cable can sound better, when no cable used to be the best cable, right?

 

This is what I like: Increased soundstage and imaging, tighter bass, clearer midrange, with more presence, darker highs but with the same overal resolution. Like if I hear hidden textures beneath the main sounds.

 

Two strange effects: Perceived volume seems increased around 3db and also, much added musicality. My listening sessions have been much longer than before.

 

I just love these $25 mushrooms.

[totoxio]

@Boomboy I plug POE adapter directly into the power supply, then 2 m Ugreen, then POE end, then LT3045 board and finally 30 cm Ghent Canare 4S6 cable.

 

Maybe you can get some RJ45 couplers like this, to combine different lengths:

 

https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Coupler-Ethernet-Extender-Adapter/dp/B016B13UDK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1528691507&sr=8-4&keywords=ugreen+coupler

 

Enjoy!

 

[totoxio]

@sandyk I completely understand that. How can added cable make my system sound better? I was skeptical but I tried just because it was cheap to try, and the results are very noticeable. And the expectation bias for something so inexpensive was also very low. What can I say? I don't know the reason why this is making my system sound better, but it is.

 

 

[totoxio]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 I have already explained this elsewhere several times.

Unless you use additional larger value capacitors at the input of the LT3045 PSU PCB, such as you would when using it after a bridge rectifier in a PSU, you will exaggerate HF detail.

Put 2 in series and you will get a further HF detail increase, and possibly at the expense of a more overall balanced sound.

 Low end impact and lower mid range warmth may suffer unless you use extra capacitance, due to the LT3045 PCBs only using low value Tantalum or ceramic capacitors at their input.   But, if your system is lacking in  the HF detail area you may gain an apparent increase in the size of the soundstage and HF detail.

Micael  loves putting a couple in series because it appears to improve what appears to be lacklustre performance from  Spotify etc..

 

Thank you @sandyk. The ldovr LT3045 (stock) was already in my system and as you say, it added detail. Honestly, I don't think it was because of increased HF but because of decreased noise floor. The POE+CAT7 added bottom end tightness, instrument separation, and more expansive soundstage but it made the highs a bit darker, in a musical way, more enjoyable. Not sure how to explain it... Darker but with increased resolution, is that possible?

 

Is this POE thing creating some coloration or distortion that is balancing my system?. That's a possibility, but improvements are not only in freq response and are also noticeable in all the freqs range.

 

Cheers. 

[totoxio]

Same vendor, on ebay:

 

$9 per meter.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/401540485197