ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[Quadman]

Big thank you to @sligolad who made me aware of the thread over at US Audiomart, I guess I spend to much time listening to music and not enough time reading forums, tho 224 page threads are a bit intimidating to peruse.  It never ceases to amaze me the paths that computer based audiophiles will travel down in the name of improving the audio stream from a PC.  Hats off to you all.

 

Well my uGreen 1m cat 7 cables and passive PoE adaptors showed up yesterday, despite reading very favorable comments from folks who use this setup to power devices I was skeptical, how could adding more connections in the power path be a good thing.  I was using shielded (JSSG mod) starquad power cables connected directly to PSU at one end and 2.1x5.5mm barrel connector at device end, now I was removing the direct connection at LPSU end installing a female 2.1mm connector and plugging a PoE adaptor into that, a ugreen cat 7 cable into the ethernet part at both ends of PoE's and the barrel of the second PoE into a Isoregen located at the dac (T+A dac 8 DSD) and a regen located at the PC.  So I had now replaced 2 shielded direct connected (at LPSU) starquad cables with this mess of cat 7 and PoE adaptors.  It took several on/off, plug/unplug cycles for the PC to see the Dac (that IR is a fussy piece) and I set a playlist to play with the amps turned off my goal to get 4-5 hours of burn in before sitting to listen.

 

Well it was now time to sit and listen and listen I did, it was a 6 hour session and for most of it I was playing music from my most played albums on Roon, the first 3 pages of albums, albums I know very well as I listen an average of 100 hours a month, not background listening, but sit and focus on music listening.  Dumbfounded is all I can say this was a pretty big change, a very positive change.  Wider, deeper soundstage with much more energy inside it.  Backgrounds just disappeared and you are left with just the performers, more solid than before even at the edges of the sound stage, their presence was just more than anytime before.  Leading edges of transients where fast and very well defined giving a nice dynamic jump to the sound from pre PoE.  I detected no edges of digital glare at all to the sound 6 hours in I still wanted to listen, but the clock told me to go to bed (it was 2:30am).  Overall the sound was more like I was at he performance than the performance playing on my stereo.  It had more of a human quality to it, more dynamic, more transparent, more speed.  Very pleased with this PoE chain and I have no idea why it does what it does.  If you read the thread over at Audiomart start around page 204 and you'll get 98% of this PoE experiment.  My next move is to direct connect the PoE adaptor to the LPSU's and add another one to power my SLC OS SSD inside my PC.  I will also add some in series LT3045 regulators to step the voltage down from my LPSU from 7V to 5V and I will power the SSD, IR and regen at this voltage, that I expect will be another jump up based on comments of those who have done the same.

[Quadman]

Interesting the shielding solved the ibra issue you reported in AM thread.  I may have to try that but once I finally got the pc and dac to see each other the IR was stable all evening and I had no further issues with playback.  This was one of those R U F'ing kidding me moments in SQ jump.  Digital from a PC and ways to improve, many times, just don't seem to make sense but the results speak for themselves.  Well time to crawl back down the rabbit hole.

[Quadman]

I cut one open this afternoon and was shocked on the power lead wiring, which leads me to believe that we should just buy RJ45 female, perhaps shielded and solder our own power leads to it.  Either shielded or not then connect other ends of leads directly to LPSU's.  The existing power lead to PoE is to the right.  No transformers.  This wiring does confirm your multimeter readings tho.

 

[Quadman]

Good Point Larry.  For my use I'll power a regen at the PC, the isoregen at the dac and my intel SLC SSD inside my PC, all draw less than .5A so this solution should work fine.  Trying to power higher amperage devices may not be advised, tho you could use 2 pairs of cat 7 for each DC + and - and up the amperage levels thru the cable using your tear it apart method.

 

Here is a RJ45 pre soldered to a breakout board that has a magnetic transformer inside, you can also buy just the breakout board and solder your own RJ45 to it with no transformer inside the RJ45.  I will try both ways.  Then play with different power leads from board to LPSU.

 

[Quadman]

9 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

Will this give any improvement with Regen first generation (amber Regen)? Thank you.

 

I put 2 PoE into my system at first, one at PC side going from LPSU to regen and one at dac side going to IR.  Did both at same time so can't comment on change for each device but the effect was very huge in my system and I was using starquad cable with JSSG mod shield as my DC connectors before this change.

 

FYI as reported on the audiomart forum different brands of cat 7 cable sound different from one another, go figure.

[Quadman]

15 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Ultimately what needs to be considered and gotten to the bottom of is which wire construction and topology sounds best and why. 

 

 

And I suppose it can vary by system as to which cable sounds best.  The Why part may be a bit harder to explain.

[Quadman]

These cat 7 cables 1m or 3 ft.  I ordered 2 pcs and then yesterday ordered 2 more pcs, as I have yet to do my SSD.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QV1F0RU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

these PoE, I ordered 2 sets so I would have 8 pcs total for mix and match combo's.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LX1WL2Z/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Quadman]

21 minutes ago, sligolad said:

I will open one of the round IBRA CAT7 cables i have to see how good it is.

Larry has a picture of the round Ibra posted above, it's shielding looked okay, compared to your remarks about the flat cable.

[Quadman]

My second order of cat 7 tables came and I quickly made a JSSG shielded cable from OS SSD (intel SLC) to outside the case where I connected the cheap $2 PoE to it with uGreen cat 7 cable.  Fired the PC back up and it worked fine.  Tonight long listening session and tomorrow I'll report if that also offered additional improvement.  

 

I placed the order yesterday for RJ45 breakout boards, RJ45 Females and a pre soldered RJ45 breakout board with transformers inside the RJ45.  Reports on those and if they further improve the cheap PoE this weekend or early next week.

[Quadman]

Yesterday my second order of uGreen cat 7 cables arrived and this allowed me to add a PoE on my OS SSD (Intel SLC SSD).  Before adding this I made a better power cable to run from the SSD to just outside the case a star quad with JSSG shield, whereas before I just used a unshielded starquad and left apprx 6 inches of sata adapter cable run from it to the SSD.  The PoE stayed outside the case.  Well I listened past 3 am last night, I just couldn't turn the music off.  This was a much larger jump in SQ than my first two PoE's which are at a regen at the PC and IR at the dac.  Bass dynamics just jumped out of the system, tight fast impressive bass (My speakers are capable of 20 Hz in my room), Transparency went up quite a bit and it already was about as good as you could expect.  Wider deeper stage with even more solid images within.  Piano really grabbed my attention as I was more aware of the it's sound board then I remember ever hearing before.  A naturalness that made me feel I was part of the event not sitting listening to the event played back on my system.  Speed, dynamics and natural transparency thoughts kept running thru my head last night.

 

By the weekend I should have assembled my DIY PoE's using shielded RJ45's both with and without internal transformers, I'll report back after that.  

 

Adding DC plugs to the stripped ends of cat 7 is what Larry proposed after taking his cat7 apart, nice report on that charles.

[Quadman]

Take a night off and look what happens, wow excellent reporting.  I just ordered 3M of bulk supra cat 8 and can't wait.  That and my DIY PoE using RJ45 ethernet jacks with transformers will be interesting.

 

BTW- I have been using gotham cables (Gac 2 V1) as my interconnects for over 15 years they are outstanding and compete with many cables that cost hundreds per meter. 

[Quadman]

So my RJ45 magic jack breakout boards showed up today with a RJ45 plug with transformers installed in the jack.  Continuity check with MM from pins 1-8 on the back of the board to the RJ45 pins showed that pins 1-3 connected together, Pins 4 & 5 isolated to pin 4 and pin 5 and pins 6-8 connected together.  Searching further I managed to find a data sheet for this jack.  Pins 1-3 connect to one transformer pins 6-8 connect to another transformer on the RJ45 plug side all pins seem connected to a transformer.  Based on my PoE teardown pins 4 & 5 were connected to DC +, and pins 7&8 connected to DC - (there was no transformer in that PoE).  So what would you guys think the best way to wire this PoE (wish I was an EE).  Seems to me if you want to use the full transformer effect then DC+ would go to pins 1&2 and DC- would go to pins 7&8.  Anyone with deeper understanding of this your help would be appreciated.  Direct wired Cat 8 certainly be easier, but I have to try all options.

 

[Quadman]

This, its a breakout board with a RJ45 soldered into it. the RJ45 has transformers inside it.  Solder pads are just visible on the rear of the unit.  Pads for pins 1-8, Y LED + and -, Grn LED + and - and shield.  I also ordered bare boards and RJ45 with no transformers so I can see

the effect of transformer coupled RJ45 vs non transformer coupled RJ45.  This may all be moot now with the direct cat 8 connection but these parts were already on order so try I will.

 

 

 

[Quadman]

So it certainly appears the direct connect method is probably the best and my Cat 8 showed up today, but before all this I ordered parts for a better DIY PoE and Thursday I completed them and put into my system just to get power thru them.  Last night I sat in to listen to them, 6 1/2 hours worth.  It took what already was pretty good (cheap PoE) and kicked it up another notch.  The whole presentation had a different feeling to it.  The transparency was up again, the dynamics/leading edges up again, the width and depth was even bigger.  The presence of everything within the stage was more solid and palpable then I had ever heard particularly the "other" musicians, not the center vocalist, or lead guitarist, or sax player, it was the edge performers to the side or way back in the stage they had a presence almost as strong as the lead center performer.  This made the whole performance more real than I had ever heard from a 2 channel system before, it was almost erie it definitely had a different feel to it and very good feel to it.  I have to admit this PoE/direct connect idea Rob came up with is the real deal.  This is one of the biggest gains my system has ever had and it already was a very high resolving system.

 

It took me 2 days to make these DIY PoE's I started with 24ga litz silver coated copper wire.  I carefully kept the orientation of the wires to the same direction so when all was connected all the PoE leads I made ran in the same direction as I took it off the roll.  I twisted these and then added tinned copper shield and a JSSG ground wire then some shrink wrap.  Like this

 

Below are shielded JSSG wires and wires before shielding and jssg.  I used the tape to keep the direction known

 

Now completed PoE's along with a cheap amazon PoE I took apart to see what was inside-cheap 2 small wires probably not twisted, no shield from DC barrel connector to breakout board.  RJ45 was also not shielded.

 

My PoE had much better shielded RJ45's thou I did not connect the shield to anything, and of course my fancy home brew shielded leads.  I ran a uGreen cat 7 cable between these PoE's and got the results I described above.  My best sound to date.  BTW, these RJ45 do NOT have transformers inside.  I may get to those in the future once I confirm how DC goes thru these, just been to busy lately to do that.

 

I am going to wait until next weekend before I insert the direct connect cat 8 cable between my LPSU's and devices I power (isoregen, regen and OS SSD).  Then I will probably direct connect some cat 7 to compare to direct cat 8.  I need time for my ears to adjust to the sound before anymore changes, making changes to fast one can loose the base to which they refer to.  Liking what I am hearing so far.

 

Side note- Rob aka Tubelover2 requested the admins to shut the very large thread over at USaudiomart, he was the one we own a debt to for the power over ethernet idea.  Supposedly he will start another thread to begin further conversation on audio streaming.

[Quadman]

9 minutes ago, mansr said:

It doesn't. That's the purpose of the transformers

 

There are articles on the web discussing sending DC over PoE magnetic transformers they are designed to do so.  I just have not had the time to research more and figure out are these PoE certified magnetic transformers.  If not then you are correct, if they are then it should be doable off the center taps on the network side.

[Quadman]

Well said @charlesphoto

[Quadman]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

To send DC power you need access to the cable side of the transformer

Yea your probably right

[Quadman]

Yes, the PoE change was nothing short of jaw dropping.  Well my LT3045 boards showed up Thursday and Friday I put together 2 new PSU's to replace my dual DIYinHK PSU that powered my regen and SSD.  I made a new S11 PSU at 7V and a Belleson based PSU at 7.5V.  I put together 2 LT3045 based step down PSU' to connect with a 6V board going to a 5V LT3045 in series.  So I put these boards after my new S11 PSU at 7V which steps down to 6V then 5V with the 3045's, this powers my PC's OS intel SLC SSD.  The belleson PSU now powers the regen located at my PC with no step down board yet.  Another S11 PSU at 7V powers my Isoregen at the dac with another 3045 based step down (6V to 5V) so 5V powers my IR which now bypasses the TI LDO regulators inside the IR and according to Rob further increases the sound of the IR.

 

My custom made PoE's (see photo's of on P4 of this thread) and 1m runs of uGreen cat 7 cable now connect between the LPSU's and my 3 devices.  So, S11 PSU> Custom PoE/Cat 7> LT3045 step down boards> Device.  Step down boards connect to SSD and IR.  Before the new PSU's I had been running the custom PoE with ugreen cat 7 between PSU and devices.

 

Friday night I spent 7 hours listening, until 3AM.  Dang another nice step forward, my first obvious impression of the new step-downs was the bass, wow.  Even faster, more dynamic more transparent.  Harmonic overtones of low bass strings were so obvious so there.  Then as the night progressed and the new PSU's caps begin to settle some and I played a wider range of familiar music.  Like the first experience with PoE's the sound was wider, deeper more transparent with images more palpable more there, more real, solid.  I almost couldn't believe the level of sound I was now hearing.  Having just returned from MN and hearing my buddies $500k all analog based system that was just re-set up by someone considered to be a expert.  My sound was way more transparent, had more speed, and much more dynamics.  Due to listening room differences my geometry of stage is not as large as his but to scale to my smaller room my depth and width of stage are his equal.  My sound is so lifelike, every change to this DC power chain has provided more life more pleasure and enjoyment of sound it just keeps progressing forward.  I couldn't be happier.  

 

My supra cat 8 cable has been here over a week, but I made the decision to wait for the new power boards to be installed before I would even attempt adding the cat 8.  I will let my ears settle on this new wonderful sound for the next week and next weekend I will drop the cat 8 into this chain removing the PoE and direct wiring between the PSU's and devices with this wire, 2 pairs + and 2 pairs - .  Ears have to settle and brain needs to adjust to new sound before I attempt another change. I have to know what each step does before forging forward.  Times in digital are so exciting now.                                             

[Quadman]

57 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Is anyone else finding there are further improvements from longer lengths?? 

 

 

Well I just put my cat 8 in today replacing 3-1M runs of uGreen cat 7 (round).  The cat 8 I cut to the just needed length which in every case but one was shorter that the cat 7.  So I hope you are wrong otherwise I may be stepping back.  First sonic impressions I will report on tomorrow.

[Quadman]

Ok so last night was my first night listening to a all Cat 8 DC power cable chain in my system.  Moving from my custom PoE's (photo of back on page 4 of thread) and 1m Ugreen round cat 7 cable.  I cut the Cat 8 for just the length needed and due to the stiffness of this cable I ended longer than a more flexible cable would have but I was still shorter than the 1m Ugreen.  I generally direct connected to each PSU with the screw terminals that solder to the PCB's, like what Alexy supplies with the 1A LT3045 boards and then used a CUI barrel connector soldered to the Cat 8 to connect to my devices.  Here's a photo.  The longer runs got the JSSG ground wire before installing.

 

FYI- I upsample all music to DSD512 with HQP using Polysinc XTR mp 2s, with DSD5v2 filter to a T+A dac 8DSD

 

I selected a showoff playlist I have on Roon and selected shuffle, the very first song was a acoustic live recording and the shear size and presence of the audience startled me.  It shouldn't have, I spend an average of 100 hours per month listening to this system for the past 4 years via digital, it is really good, very transparent and very dynamic with a huge stage, but never the less I was startled by the presence and realness of the audience.  For the entire evening I listened to very familiar tracks I was enjoying myself, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what this was doing different.  The cat 7 setup was also very transparent, dynamic and threw a huge stage and clearly was better than before the PoE discovery, but the cat 8 was different, I couldn't pin what it was that caused this.  Then around 1:30AM I played my most frequent tracks some live, some acoustic, some rock and blues.  I then realized on these tracks that I have heard several hundred times that the speakers were just not there, not once did I hear a sound that came near a speaker the sound was behind and to the sides of the speakers depth went well beyond my back wall, it was as if the sound came from my acoustic panels behind the speakers.  Now the system came really close to this level before but this was just a bit different more real in an eerie life like kind of a way.  Transparency was not much different, I ended up playing about 1 click down on the volume knob with cat 8, depth and width really was not that much deeper and wider but this FELT different, more organic, more real.  All the audiophile adjectives were there but the feeling was real.

 

Now I have big speakers about 5 ft tall, I sit 8.5 ft from each speaker, the speakers are 8.5 ft from the back wall to the front of the speaker.  Bass plays flat down to 25 hz I EQ the bass only with a digital parametric equalizer which we set up using Clio 8.53 software.  Generally I am plus or minus 5db from 25-20K Htz and plus or minus 2-3db from 250-17K Htz.   Hard to believe these big speakers can disappear so effectively like they did last night.  Here's a photo for your reference.

 

8.5 ft away and it was like they were not there on a level I have never heard before, which by the way was already pretty impressive (is there an echo :D).  So my next move after friends come for a few days and I finish the BBQ contest we compete in later this month I will try the full Gotham Gac 4 ultra pro Larry says will even top this.  I ask can it really get any better?  Well it has so far in each PoE step up.  Big thanks to Bi-Polar Rob for the discovery (tho his other half was wrong saying the cat 8 was a step back), and to the community for sharing all their experiments and results with us followers.  Thank you!!

 

[Quadman]

Same that I used all evening.  30" from S11 to LT3045 boards, before was 1m uGreen, 13" from Belleson PSU to regen before was 1m ugreen, 38" from S11 to lt3045 boards before was about the same, 1m ugreen.

[Quadman]

40 minutes ago, tims said:

Any chance you could go over this again?

Near the bottom of page 4 I have photos of the wires I made for custom PoE and then the final assembly of PoE.  I used these Poe's with Cat 7 (ugreen round 1m) essentially replacing the cheap eBay and amazon PoE's everyone else was using.  This made an improvement over the cheap PoE but at a cost of a lot of labor and time. This stayed in my system until last night when I pulled all custom PoE's from system and all cat 7 and replaced with a direct wired cat 8 set up.  So there now is  NO PoE's in my system just direct wired cat 8 (I bought bulk cat 8).  Now it could be argued that I should open the cat 7 and direct wire like cat 8 and compare and maybe some day I will, First I want to try the Gotham Larry talks about, as my whole interconnect set up in my system has been gotham Gac 2v1 since the early 00's and that stuff hangs with cables costing thousands.  I notice Gotham has a ultra pro gac 2 that would make a wicked good IC and be easier to work than Gac 4/1.  Always something to do.

 

[Quadman]

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Sometimes a sound stage seems zoomed in creating what I call " big head" syndrome. That is not happening here. It's more like attending a concert with the room's ambience all around. Sizes seem natural and very 3 dimensional. I would add there is much more harmonic content than ever, with the subtle beauty of the instruments and voices shining through. I find myself turning my head to focus on a particular artist on the stage.

 

Like you, the best way I can describe the SQ is that it sounds live. I am lucky in that I attend a live performance once or twice a month. These could be rock, jazz or classical performances. I recently sat in the front row of a Cowboy Junkies concert, outside the enhanced sound area, and heard Margot sing Misguided Angel. The live version of this same song on the Trinity Revisited album is spine tingling, along with the addition of Natalie Merchant on the vocals. It sounds very much live here at home including the opening harmonica, mandolin and all.

 

I have never heard music reproduced like this before.

Larry, thank you for putting in words what my audio vocabulary couldn't.  Yep the exact same thing here, many times I lean forward to see the performer on the far right or left of the stage too.  Life, live no reproduction just pure musical bliss.  I'll have to play that Junkies tune. The cut that started it last night was Travis Tritt Live at the Franklin in Nashville,  just him and a guitar on the stage and a few thousand enthusiastic friends, Modern Day Bonnie and Clyde.

 

I was unaware that David passed, years ago I had his watt puppy 3/2, so sad, he was still young, but cancer does not discriminate.

[Quadman]

LT3045 boards after LPSU's in series and acting as step down devices really do make a positive change in the sound.

 

Last night was my second session of the full cat 8 direct connect DC power cable set up.  By the time I sat to listen the cables had 54 hours under power.  Nothin subtle about this session whereas the first night I really enjoyed the sound but it wasn't until 1:30 AM when I realized what these cables were doing different from the cat 7/custom PoE I was using until then.  Nope this was as subtle as a jackhammer wow, the transformation with over 50 hours with power was simply amazing.  No mistaking anything, this simply was the best sound I have ever heard.  The whole stage starts 3 feet behind my speakers and then just goes back as far and as wide as you can imagine, never have I heard the depth and width that I got last night from my system/room.  The solidity and realness of the images so there so palpable, proper sized, not big headed, they had body and real dimension to them, harmonics and tonality again the best I have had.  The body of wood instruments had the best attack of the string and fullness of the instruments body that I have heard.  Second harmonics of these and the piano's sound board left my jaw agape.

 

I got into a 2 hour section of the evening playing classical, violin concerto's, that truly reminded my of my time in Minnesota sitting in center row 12 listening to Osmo Vanska leading the orchestra.  The width, depth, separation of the orchestra coupled with the magic tonality of the violins just took my breath away.  Even the softest woodwind passages had magic and clarity.  I had no walls, no speakers just glorious sound filling my room.  It was the most lifelike sound I have heard from any system.  Is there a limit to how good this can get?

 

Obviously these cables take some time to burn in and settle down, I don't know if the improvement has peaked or will it continue to improve as the hours roll up.  I can't wait until Friday evening to find out.

[Quadman]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

there have been moments when I've realised that there is even more on tap, when enough of the setup is peaking simultaneously. If you can sustain the SQ you describe indefinitely, congrats!!

 Yes I too have found there is always more to wring out the system, but if it stayed as it is now I would be very happy.  Perhaps the Gotham will further improve, but this stays in for a few weeks to let ear/brain memorize the sound and while I finish some other projects.

 

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

Does the soundstage also extend to the listening position, and even behind it with suitable material  ?

I didn't try specifically the Q sound effect, but I will try the song you suggest, In the past with when I played a Deep Forest track where the sound circles, yes the sound can come forward of the speakers.  Normal 2 channel recordings tho everything is behind the plane of the speakers.

 

6 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

what is your entire system configuration (especially the network cable)?

I do not use network cables, the router is located 2 floors above me and the house is not wired for ethernet, so I use 5 Ghz wi-fi.  Configuration of this is Ryzen 1800x PC with externally powered SLC SSD (S11 7V-LT3045 6V-LT3045 5V cat 8 cable to a star quad JSSG shield cable to SSD), Dac-up2 USB port to custom made 6" silver USB cable, Regen powered by 7.5V belleson LPSU, 1.5M wire world starlight (the red one) USB cable to iso regen with USPCB to T+A Dac8 DSD, Isoregen powered by s11 at 7V with 2 lt3045 boards stepping down to 5V, full cat 8 DC cables.  powering the IR at 5V bypasses the Texas instruments regulators inside the IR and improves it sound further.  Music source is Roon/Tidal or internal 5200RPM surveillance HDD.