ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[genjamon]

Wouldn't star-quad DC wire do the same thing?  I have the Canare star-quad wire recommended by John Swenson in past threads and found it to improve upon high end neotech silver/gold solid core wire with oyaide connectors in my system.  Are you claiming that this tweak improves on the star-quad?

[genjamon]

I sprung for the $10 to buy the POE adapters and have an extra 1M Supra CAT8 cable I can use to connect them.  Will let you guys know what I find compared to my 6" DIY Canare star quad between LPS-2 and Ultrarendu.  

[genjamon]

I converted my extra Supra 8 cable last night. Linking an LPS-1.2 to an Ultrarendu straight into DAC with a USPCB. Previous cable was a DIY Canare star quad with screw connectors. Listened to a couple songs, with the Supra, and definitwly heard a more relaxed and natural overall character. This morning i also noticed sibilance less pronounced and more of a piece with the rest of the music. I wouldnt say gobsmacked or noght and day, but a nice improvement. 

 

I combined connectors according to charles’s original approach. Given twist geometry of the cable bundles, this also seems to emulate the way you combine wires in the Canare star quad, so made intuitive sense to me. Combine opposing bundles in a star quad twist pattern. 

 

I also tinned the wires together to better hold them together before inserting into the barrel connector screw terminals. 

[genjamon]

Well, I’ve converted all my DC cables (powering Ultrarendu, netgear switch, and centurylink router) to Supra Cat8 w/JSSG as described in this thread and have achieved a nice overall SQ boost. Before the Supra Cat8 stuff surfaced, I had ordered the PoE adapters. Given all the butt-hurt posts by Tubelover, etc, I’ve gone ahead and ordered an Ibra cable so I can compare their recommended PoE setup to Charles’s Supra Cat8 approach. I also just ordered my first LDover LT3045 board to play with. I know I’m playing catch up with some of this stuff, but looking forward to comparing with the Supra Cat8. 

[genjamon]

Umm, I just ordered the Ibra that you just linked - just now. Why did you provide a link to the Ibra, when it’s really the Ugreen that you recommend? 

 

Also, I wasn’t referring so much to your posts here as the ones on USAM. 

[genjamon]

Alright, I just finished comparing the PoE adapters with Ugreen flat 1m in between compared with ~.5m Supra Cat8 with two twisted pairs +V and two pairs -V, tinned conductors, plugged into cheap screw type barrel connectors on each end, and with JSSG ground wire hanging loose rather than tightly wound like Charles did. That’s how I read JS’s instructions, to leave it loose rather than tightly wound.

 

This is between an Uptone LPS 1.2 and a Sonora Ultrarendu. Into a Lampizator Big7 DAC using the R2R PCM module. Streaming from Tidal. 

 

Results: absolutely no contest. Supra Cat8 clearly superior. Ugreen/PoE had good detail, but white washed presentation in comparison. Supra has more body to instruments, and more micro detail retrieval as well. Overall much more realistic portrayal and more musical. All effects are along the lines of what I have come to exoerience whenever noise floor is lowered in digital circuits, whether through DAC, streamer/computer, modem/router/switch, etc. 

[genjamon]

No, my meaning of “white wash” is quite the opposite. That of emphasizing transients, not a fully fleshed out sound of real instruments with real tone, etc. for instance, with guitar, an emphasis on the plucked string, but not much in the way of resonance from the body of the guitar which is essential to the tone of a guitar’s sound. 

 

My my suspicion is that this effect has its basis in an emphasis on upper midrange frequencies over lower midrange and upper bass frequencies - the frequency balance is out of whack. 

 

However, I also hear additional micro details within he sounds of instruments with the Supra that I don’t hear as well with the Ugreen flat. For instance, snare drum has more detail and decay to its sound, whereas the Ugreen/PoE combo blunts that detail and decay somewhat. 

 

So, I’m hearing both a better frequency balance, as well as better microdetail/resolution/refinement with the Supra. 

 

Sorry. 

[genjamon]

7 hours ago, bit01 said:

@genjamon - Does your UGREEN/PoE adapter combo use the two or the four twisted pairs for power? I take it the Supra is using the four. I am wondering if it is really apples & apples you are comparing?

If it is using the PoE 2 pairs and you would like to try all the 4, you can have a look at my post on page 11 showing the mod to the adapter that achieves this without cutting the cable.

 

 

Its absolutely not an apples to apples comparison. It’s been at least a couple pages back in the thread, not sure exactly, but the original initiator of this tweak Rob was posting on this thread claiming the evolution to the Supra Cat8 approach developed by Charles on this thread would not sound as good as the original suggested PoE adapters with cheap Ugreen Ethernet cable. He was saying there was something magical about the flat Ugreen geometry that was superior. I doubted him, but given that I already had the original referenced PoE adapters in hand, I splurged and ordered the $6 Ugreen flat cable to check his assertion. So, not intended to be apples to apples, since the claims of superiority were actually based in the differences. 

 

As for modding the PoE connectors, I’m not really interested in going further with that. But I am interested in adding an LT3045 in-line as Charles has done. I have one on the way to test.

[genjamon]

2 minutes ago, totoxio said:

@genjamon First, thank you for your detailed description of how you compare uGreen flat to Supra cables. While your impressions are totally different than mine, this is not a right or wrong situation. You know, different ears, different systems, even different goals. But after your excellent review, I now think that trying the Supra cables is a must. I will do a comparison when I get them.

 

I think you may hear a difference once you add the LT3045 in-line. That's the way I have it. I'd like to point out that the POE injector and the CAT cables are an addition to my system, they have not replaced anything. I still use a 30 cm Canare 4S6 with Oyaide plugs  and a micro usb adaptor between the LT3045 board and the iDefender that feeds my Singxer F1. The POE trick comes only before the LT3045 because I think that while the CAT7 is doing some good, it is still a cable, no matter how insulated or twisted it is. So, this EMI/RFI they are introducing to the system has to be filtered out somehow. (I also use a ferrite bead).

 

BTW, I also plan to keep my POE injector intact. This cable swapping thing is mindblowing!. One night I prefer a certain cable, next night the other, depending on mood and type of music. Almost like different EQ presets! But as I wrote before, I don't hear any of the disadvantages of EQing. For example, if I boost the bass with UAPP, it sounds looser. With POE the bass sounds more noticeable but tighter! And the midrange sounds just right! So, no phase shift and no bleeding into other frequencies I guess? 

 

 

 

Well, we have a ton of differences between our two implementations, so no need to even get into the different ears/different goals stuff.  Just the differences you've explained are enough to make my head spin:

 

Me - straight DC cable swap between LPS-1.2 and UltraRendu > USB DAC input - no further tweaks

You - some kind of power supply > PoE > LT3045 > Canare 4s6 > iDefender > Singxer F1 > SPDIF DAC input

 

These are very different power chains, feeding very different system implementations.  The LT3045, iDefender, Singxer F1, and whatever DAC you have and its SPDIF input could all have impacts that change the nature of the impacts of this ethernet cable tweak.  So yeah, not really worth comparing our impressions side by side and expecting consistencies IMO.

[genjamon]

Any chance this is similar to benefits from Litz wiring? I’m not too fluent in the specifics of Litz benefits, and maybe they’re just for AC and not for DC? But if they do apply to DC conditions, maybe that’s part of the story? Doesn’t that have to do with reducing skin effect? And the multiple sets of twisted pairs further twisted around each other might give us a similar benefit?

 

Whether or not Litz effects are at work, my money is on this being a simple matter of better shielding and wire geometry for rejection of noise. 

[genjamon]

Supra considers their air infused dielectric to reduce capacitance of their wire. Capacitance is important to minimize in audio interconnects (i.e. at low frequencies) - correct? 

 

I realize this may not have anything to do with DC, but still thought your point about having no effect at low frequencies seemed off. 

[genjamon]

@Quadman, what you describe sounds pretty good to me. As my own system has gotten more refined and the perception of music has fully detached from the speakers, I’d describe a very deep soundstage as well, and music usually coming from behind the plane of the speakers. Yes, I’m sure with more incisive and aggressive speakers, I could make the soundstage move forward, but I tend to reject the sound of these kinds of designs as overly emphasizing upper midrange and high frequencies at the expense of the all-important (to me) “power” region of lower midrange and upper bass that gives music its soul. By emphasizing the upper frequency transients, you can achieve attack that brings the soundstage forward, but I also have found that this flattens the soundstage to less depth, and brightens the sound to an unnatural and artificial timbre. 

 

In other words, I bet your system sounds awesome, and keep on keepin’ on!

[genjamon]

I think what we have here is a simple case of removing one bottleneck in the system and revealing another.

 

If the noise of the regulator/output device is higher than that of the noise pickup in the cabling, I would agree with all of the skepticism expressed.  But the quality of these regulators is now at a point that this is no longer true.

 

These LT3042/45 devices are so low noise that now the noise being picked up in the cabling connecting to the load is the dominant feature in the noise profile, thus making all of these cable changes quite audible. 

 

A good biking friend of mine is a laser physicist who works with very ultra fast lasers, and their ability to test the speed of these lasers and their other characteristics depends upon low noise sensors.  He laughs at me when I talk about the noise specs of our audio equipment, since in his carefully controlled lab environment he and his peers can't get anywhere close to 1uV noise threshold - he says the wiring picks up WAY more noise than that.  

 

What exactly is causing which effects - now that's a good question.  And many ideas have been posited on this thread.  We won't be able to do anything more than this silly game of trial and error unless someone with skill and tools actually properly tests systematically for the effects of geometry, shielding, dielectric, etc on rejection and/or filtration of electrical interference.

[genjamon]

4 hours ago, marce said:

Oliver Heaviside

I found this interesting paragraph in Wikipedia on Heaviside:

 

Between 1880 and 1887, Heaviside developed the operational calculus using p for the differential operator, (which Boole^[10] had previously denoted by D), giving a method of solving differential equations by direct solution as algebraic equations. This later caused a great deal of controversy, owing to its lack of rigour. He famously said, "Mathematics is an experimental science, and definitions do not come first, but later on."^[11] On another occasion he asked somewhat more defensively, "Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?"^[12]

[genjamon]

Cornan, can you describe your reasoning behind joining the shield loops of the two DAC cables?  Why wouldn't just JSSGing them each individually be just as good - or even better?  

[genjamon]

Ok, after 8 pages of debate about the best way to tighten a screw, I have something actually substantive to report regarding sound quality impressions and DC cabling.

 

I've just finished a somewhat extended comparison between short (<6") cables made with 12awg solid core from the hardware store ($.69/ft) both with and without Kemets on each end.  This is between my LPS 1.2 and UltraRendu.  So, it's a bit simpler system than some of the others discussed on here.  I do have a LDover LT3045 board in the house, but haven't yet hooked it up.  I wanted to get a handle on my preferred cabling first, and plus, the LPS 1.2 output is already driven by a LT3045 regulator.  

 

So, at risk of starting yet another front here, I"m actually not digging the Kemets at all in this setup.  I gave them 48 hours of continuous use, and in three listening sessions throughout that period (immediately upon plugging in, after 24 hours, and at the end of the 48 hours) my impressions remained consistent throughout.  It sounded like a haze was over the full frequency spectrum of the music.  With just the raw unadulterated 12awg wire, I get more micro detail, clarity, realism throughout.  My first thought when I first swapped to the Kemets was "where'd my dynamics go?!".  Now, I'll acknowledge a certain smoothening of any sibilance in my system, and I can see how those with tinnitus and/or bright systems could benefit from the haze the Kemets added.  In Charles's case, using a LPS-1 and MicroRendu, which I am very familiar with, I wonder if it's not a better synergy.  And maybe the Kemets are providing more benefit over the LPS-1, but the LPS 1.2 may not need the Kemets due to better output regulation.  So, I'm not trying to say the Kemets are trash or anything, and I'm still interested in trying them when I put my LT3045 board in between LPS 1.2 and the UltraRendu.  But at this point, the Kemets are not going back into the system in this configuration - no way, no how.  I'm getting magic with the straight 12awg romex and will be happy to come back to this configuration if results are mixed with other experiments.

 

This result is after living with and enjoying the Supra Cat8 w/JSSG for about a month before trying the 12awg solid core.  I found the Supra Cat8 to be an easy improvement over my former DIY Canare 4s6.