ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[jabbr]

On 5/29/2018 at 8:48 PM, JohnSwenson said:

My current ideas as to what matters for a DC cable is inductance and dielectric absorption. The inductance is primarily determined by the geometry of the wires, and dielectric absorption is determined by the insulation on the wires.

 

 

Really? In an idealized DC situation, an inductor is a simple resistor and hopefully your cable has low resistance. Whatever inductance you actually desire can be placed at either the PSU output or device input. Right? I mean the Regen in this situation has sufficient onboard capacitance that there aren't large current surges or is there something about the ISO Regen engineering that makes current draw widely variable? But I'm assuming that you have sufficient inductors on the board that the cable should be irrelevent i.e. X + 0.0000001X remains roughly X. That's a design issue then, no?

[jabbr]

46 minutes ago, One and a half said:

The idealised DC is just that , ideal. There’s the usual suspects of higher AC taking a ride on the DC and the inductance takes a stick to these somewhat. Just how much is a design issue

 

The designer of both  the power supply and device should be able to determine exactly what the ideal inductance is and create that. No need for speculation. Not just ideal, we are dealing with very specific devices here.

[jabbr]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_element_(electrical_networks)

 

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54 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Exactly.

I suppose there may be recordings engineered that way the same as there are recordings that have sounds circling the room. However if many/most recordings start 3' behind the plane of the drivers I would describe it as "recessed".

The world is a very bizarre place when a DC power cable between an UpTone LPS1 and ISO Regen affects soundstage!!! Are we still talking about that?. @Superdad I ain’t goin’ to start ABXing pieces of copper wire ???

[jabbr]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

Star-quad does lower inductance so technically beneficial.

A benefit of lowered inductance implies that the current draw of the device is highly variable. For a low powered digital device, the onboard capacitance would serve to smooth switching. Is the ISO Regen current draw "spikeblesy" to the extent that cable impedance between the ISO Regen and the LPS1 makes a difference?

 

Moreover if this is indeed the case then obviously using as short a cable as possible is most important... also attaching long legged alien creatures to the cables surely act as antennae, increase inductance etc ... but obviously on board low ESR capacitance is most important.

[jabbr]

35 minutes ago, genjamon said:

Supra considers their air infused dielectric to reduce capacitance of their wire. Capacitance is important to minimize in audio interconnects (i.e. at low frequencies) - correct? 

 

I realize this may not have anything to do with DC, but still thought your point about having no effect at low frequencies seemed off. 

 

Huh? There is a drastic difference between a power supply line and a signal line. In power supplies one wants to increase capacitance!

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, RamDawg said:

I think you are jabbring about something you have not heard or experienced yet ???. 

 

I've had much more vivid experiences with magic mushrooms ?

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Well @jabbr does has had an ISO REGEN/UltraCap LPS-1.2 at his place for a few weeks, so it would not be hard for him to experiment with DC cables. (Though mushrooms on a sunny Sunday afternoon does sound like more fun than DC cable swapping. )

 

Sigh ... just realized that the burn in doesn't work until I plug the power cable in ?l

There are an infinite number of variables in the world to try, and I've found that when I try to listen to too many variables at the same time that the mushrooms have more of an effect on my SQ than the various devices ... I stick to things that have a credible chance of making a difference, for example the new clock in the ISO Regen, and the floating supercap supply -- those are REAL. 

 

Sorry still waiting for something credible about why, for example DC power cable inductance between the two. I'll place a very low yet non-zero bar on what I will consider credible. If a credible argument presents itself, then yes I am in a position to test. Still waiting... ?

[jabbr]

 

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42 minutes ago, RamDawg said:

There is a difference between the cables and plenty of folks on this thread have experienced them starting on page 1

 

People can smoke the same exact mushroom and have a different experience each time. You might insist that the mushrooms are different. How would you prove that the mushrooms are different or the same? If the mushrooms are slightly different how would you determine that your experiences are tied to these slight differences?

[jabbr]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

BTW, my wife's outstanding Hungarian mushroom soup elicits the same oohs and ahhs from guests every time.  No DBT needed.

That’s probably because you got her a great AC cable to plug her crockpot in! Previously her soup lacked both depth and transparency. 

[jabbr]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

Smoking them?  Dang, all these years I've been eating them!  

We know that around your house, smoking mushrooms can be very very dangerous !?

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6 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Why don't you enlighten us about mushrooms not cables then?

 

It is very well known that the effect of psylocybin on human spatial and time perception (soundstage) is drastically higher than that of power cables.

 

Both are highly subjective. Psylocybin is much more effective and has a known mechanism of action beyond placebo. 

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

This morning I got time to finish my next DC cable. The Supra BiLine MKII.

 

To be clear, you aren't replacing a DC cable, you are replacing the entire power supply. The power supply is the DIY one you've built, not the LPS1.2 which is simply serving as a presupply for your own supply. Since you are into building DIY power supplies which is great, take a look at the Salas Shunt. As a shunt design, will tend to smooth out current demand spikes. Will tend to make any conceivable affect of its own power supply cable less relevent.

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18 minutes ago, Cornan said:

No, I am just changing a DC cable

 

Uh ... anytime you attach an LT3045 to the end of a copper wire, I call that a power supply as opposed to a cable. Its an active device with electronic components and calling this a cable just confuses the issue. That's just how I think about things...

[jabbr]

 

5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I can hook you guys up with some Datura stramonium cables.   Go to the Madrean Regional Walmart and ask for Dan Juan.

 

They do contain active devices.

 

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, bit01 said:

I can only speculate that there is some residual ac leakage or EMI riding on the DC that could reach the DAC or that the current consumption is  fluctuating in some way such that the cable geometry/design comes into play.

 

That is a tacit suggestion that the LPS1.2 is designed in an incompetent fashion which I don't believe. Think about what you are speculating.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, bit01 said:

really?

 

Really.

 

If there is residual AC or EMI traveling along the cable then the LPS1.2 is at fault (I don't believe there is residual AC nor significant EMI). If there is radically spikey current draw then the ISO Regen or microRendu are at fault. They would, in that case, need much better capacitance layout and onboard power supplies. If the cables between an LPS1.2 and ISO Regen make a radical difference then yes either or both of the devices are at fault. It would be fairly simple to ensure that, for example, the ISO Regen had constant current draw, especially with all the speculation being bandied about regarding digital switching noise, on board regulators, board layout etc., really hard to imagine that these details haven't been engineered into the device.

 

The quote from @JohnSwenson mentions his listening with a Squeezebox Touch, and he says primarily that increased DC cable gauge reduces inductance ... ok fine ... but a lot of what I'm reading here goes way beyond some of these simple things, and now you need to invoke things that I'd really expect both the LPS1.2 and ISO Regen to have dealt with already, no?

 

And keep the cables short as possible -- there seems to be this idea that some of the cables have some type of magic properties that expand soundstage etc and hence more cable is better.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Hopefully the discussion stays technical and respectful.

 

To summarize a very lengthy thread, he likes low inductance cables particularly star quad. Star quad is very common. Inductance is lowered even more with the shortest cable possible. There is now a discussion of using different brands of star quad microphone cables ... yet this is for a DC power supply not a microphone ...

 

There is no real discussion of measuring cable inductance and correlating that with SQ so he threw this out there ... and yada yada ... I'm more than happy to have a technical discussion.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, sligolad said:

And if a $10 piece of cable helps mitigate that then that is a win in my book....which is what the thread is about!

As long as the cables are $10 this is harmless. 

 

The concern is that audiophilia nervosa will result in $1000 dc power cables. 

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, lmitche said:

That's right, it's all about money and power.

Not for me, I am personally concerned with understanding what affects audio quality/SQ, and when reasonable physical explanations are lacking, the fact that higher cortical function is a powerful modulator of sensation, remains.

[jabbr]

5 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Respectfully, it would be great to see less of this and see more technical 'meat' to the discussion...

 

Would be great if you can you check out the 1st post in this link (again) and share your technical counter arguments/thoughts?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/

 

Keeping it technical and respectful of course.

 

I’ll again speak for myself here.

 

I have, as well as many folks I assume, played around with DIY cables. These include interconnects, AC and DC power as well as internal wiring, connectors etc etc etc.

 

Regarding DC cables, I don’t like those 2.1/2.5 mm plugs at all desire thatvbeing some type of standard. I greatly prefer a plug like one of the various round multipronged with a screw outer shield. There are many at Mouser and Digi-Key and if you are building your own cables and supplies powering your own devices that’s what you can use.

 

I responded to first post and have yet to hear a technical response, save for @Superdad just recently, rather have been accused of being a troll because either I just don’t agree with someone, or otherwise haven’t tested each of 10,000 iterations of cables — trust me I’ve built many DC power cables.

 

So yeah let’s keep it technical & respectful.  Anyone who thinks I’m a troll care to make a technical argument?

[jabbr]

15 hours ago, Superdad said:

and are likely not reacting to digital activity current draw spikes--the TI TPS7A4700 we use to regulate a clean 5VBUS output from the ISO REGEN (for DACs that need it) is not quite as immune to such.  We suspect that users whose DACs draw VBUS from the ISO REGEN are more likely to hear differences with lower-inductance DC cables.

 

Ok fair enough. My question would be that *if* this effect is related to spikey current draw from the downstream USB powered DAC *then* the inductance of the  DC power cable supplying the Regen would have to have an effect of the inductance of the DC power the DAC is seeing even through the USB cable!!! Does it? I’m going to guess not but willing to be shown otherwise.

 

(see that’s a technical argument folks)

 

 

[jabbr]

20 hours ago, rah50 said:

Just noticed Ghent has added new wire to their portfolio of DC cables:

 

• 4S6G Canare 4S6G (OFC 4x20awg)
• 4S8 Canare 4S8 (4 x 16awg)
• DC-J01 Silver-Plated DC(JSSG)
• AudioQuest NRG-1.5 DC(JSSG)

No Cat7 or Cat8 yet

 

Just received my Supra and uGreen, but haven't tested yet.

•  

I’m seeing $220 DC cables which ... err ... are approaching the cost of the ISO Regen, LPS1.2 and iFi Micro Black label etc ... making my point. 

 

Again, if folks want to DIY cables and power supplies, then terrific (really) but ...

[jabbr]

15 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

engineer??

Ha ha no degree in engineering but like most scientists back in the day, we had to build our own stuff, and many many scientific discoveries were brought about by the creation and use of specific techniques which include sensors, amplifiers, electronics & software. 

 

My doctoral thesis was in molecular neurobiology which I managed to do without touching a test tube because of my skillz with hardware & software ?

 

Not doing as much science these days but I do consulting and design in what could be considered engineering related fields.

 

I also learned how to read journals and books along the way and maintain memberships in IEEE and AES. 

 

All’y’all can do that too ?