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Innuos ZENith "STATEMENT"


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6 hours ago, justubes said:

If not wrong usb connection uses the clocking from the dac, asynchronous usb connection.

Even so the better the clock / lower the jitter entering the DAC/ master clock, will  benefit sound wise.

If the LAN ports operate at the same frequency and voltage then they can share the same clock.

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Hi everyone,

 

A quick clarification: the ethernet uses a separate clock (and separate power supply for each clock) from USB. Ethernet uses a 25MHz clock whereas USB uses a 24MHz clock. The Ethernet clock works for both ethernet ports.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nuno

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14 hours ago, str-1 said:

Just looking again at last month’s edition I see that while edition 168 was due out in the UK on 31 Jan, it is not due out in the States until 28 Feb.  I wonder why that is.

Ahh! Thanks for the detective work. I'll exercise patience.

“We don’t like their sound … and guitar music is on the way out!”

– Decca Records, 1962

 

M12 Switch Gold > Taiko Audio Extreme > Chord DAVE DC4 > Omega Junior Alnico XRS Towers & JL Audio Fathom Sub

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On 2/2/2019 at 4:48 AM, nvitorino said:

Hi everyone,

 

A quick clarification: the ethernet uses a separate clock (and separate power supply for each clock) from USB. Ethernet uses a 25MHz clock whereas USB uses a 24MHz clock. The Ethernet clock works for both ethernet ports.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nuno

I am still very much confused.

 

Technically, Async USB results in the dacs clocking overriding clocking in the transport(i.e statement).

 

Which clock does this override in the Statement, the USB clocking?

 

I cannot understand why the USB is being reclocked with an OCXO in such a scenario? 

 

Will benefits only results for dacs without async usb implementations?

 

Hope this can be clarified.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interesting thread. I finally saw the Innuous Statement at (believe it or not) CanJam NYC, and I spent more time investigating it than any other item at CanJam. I was probably in the minority, but I was thrilled to be able finally to see and understand a little about the Statement. This server was at the top of my list for AXPONA. I am strongly considering it over my max speced SonicTransporter i7, but I should soon be obtaining a Paul Hynes PSU for the ST i7 server, so one step at a time. 

 

My preference is Ethernet out, so this server might be ideal for me. 

 

- Mark

 

Synology DS916+ > SoTM dCBL-CAT7 > Netgear switch > SoTM dCBL-CAT7 > dCS Vivaldi Upsampler (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 Dual 110 Ohm AES/EBU > dCS Vivaldi DAC (David Elrod Statement Gold power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 xlr > Absolare Passion preamp (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 xlr > VTL MB-450 III (Shunyata King Cobra CX power cords) > Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker > Kaiser Kaewero Classic /JL Audio F110 (Wireworld Platinum power cord).

 

Power Conditioning: Entreq Olympus Tellus grounding (AC, preamp and dac) / Shunyata Hydra Triton + Typhoon (Shunyata Anaconda ZiTron umbilical/Shunyata King Cobra CX power cord) > Furutec GTX D-Rhodium AC outlet.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It’s still early days and there won’t be many Statement owners out there yet, but I wonder if anyone has personally tried an external USB reclocker with the Statement, or heard of someone else trying this.  I’m curious to learn whether a USB regenerator/reclocker like the SOtM tX-USBultra (with of without Reference Clock control) can improve on the Statement’s internal reclocking.

Zenith SE > USPCB (5v off) > tX-USBultra 9V (SR4) > Sablon Reserva Elite USB > M Scaler > WAVE Stream bnc > DAVE > Prion4/Lazuli Reference > Utopia/LCD-4/HE1000se

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Given the degree of refinement engineered into the Statement’s USB its unlikely that a tx-USBUltra is going to further refine the signal.  Vibration control, EMI mitigation, OCXO 3ppb clock and direct coupling to custom designed discreet linear power supplies is not going to leave a lot of noise or jitter for a reclocking device to clean up, even when its connected to an external reference clock

I tried a tx-USBUltra with sps-500 with my Zenith SE but ended up preferring a direct USB connection via a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference. 

If I was looking to further gild the Statement Lilly I’d be looking at the upstream rather than downstream side. Downstream I’d just make sure that the Statement’s signal output integrity was protected with really good cables. 

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You will likely have further improvement doing further double reclocking with the sotm, with the sclk ex fed by a 10M reference. 

 

If you are pushing it further, you also need to pay attention to the power suppy and cables. 

 

It really depends how far you want to push the performance. 

 

If the statement has a master clock input, that would have been most perfect. 

 

You could possibly also demo a Mutec 3.1+ usb with master clock reference to it. 

 

But all this really makes sense if you already using a master clock as the cost of setting it up may still reap benefits, but at a rather substantial outlay. 

 

 

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I really don’t see why that would be the case. Typically reclocking will bring benefits when the total jitter caused by the reclocking device, its interfaces, clock and interface cabling and noise introduced by cabling, clock control circuitry, power supplies etc is less that the jitter in the signal it is reclocking, otherwise reclocking will simply add noise (if the timing variations are random) and/or atonal intermodulation artefacts (if the timing variations are periodic). 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

 

Devices like the SoTM ts-USBUltra with master clock, introduce 2 extra power supplies with their inherent ripple and noise, 2 extra DC cables, an extra clock cable, 2 USB cables plus all the circuitry and interfaces of the devices themselves. Innuos has gone to a LOT of trouble to place the regulators of their power supply right next to the interface and clock, removing any DC cabling from the circuit, they have provided a 3ppb OCXO stabilised oscillator with its own ultra low noise LPS,  split their PS to remove vibration and noise, mounted their interface in a low EMI environment and minimised vibration. Its hard to see how the introduction of multiple boxes, boards, cables and power supplies is going to improve anything. It would be like taking a pure mountain spring and passing its water through a treatment works. 

 

 

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My thanks to @Blackmorecand @justubesfor those thoughts.  

 

As I do not have a master clock, and as my tX-USBultra does not have master clock input, it would seem that trading in my Zenith SE, a Chord Hugo TT 2 (not getting much use) and my tX-U for a Statement might be a cheaper way of getting more performance than adding master-clocking to my current setup.

 

Just downloaded issue 169 of HiFi+, which probably means issue 168 with the Statement review is now available in the States.

Zenith SE > USPCB (5v off) > tX-USBultra 9V (SR4) > Sablon Reserva Elite USB > M Scaler > WAVE Stream bnc > DAVE > Prion4/Lazuli Reference > Utopia/LCD-4/HE1000se

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Another method since you have the usbultra, is that you could invest in the 10m clock and add the input. The sclk ex inside can be enable to clock the Zenith SEs motherboard, usb and ethernet.

 

Potentially, the 10m master clock feed the sclk ex in your usb ultra  may well be superior the ocxo clocks incorporated in the statement. This would be more challenging to incorporate and possibly less costly.

 

I have the sclk ex, it is another animal when fed the 10m master clock from my Mutec ref 10, which i would state is a must.

 

Double reclocking with 2 sclk ex's in the SNh10 switch  with 10m master clock signals has further improvements. Dont ask why, but it just does.

 

Another level level improvement, probably not worth the effort as the 2nd reclocking adds up the cost significantly especially when you consider good clock cables like the shunyata sigma clock cables with are alread 2k per piece.

 

Fwiw, there wss further bass tightening, detail and clearer spatial qualities, notes and sounds just lend themselves more into there own space dimensionally within the sound stage.

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Thanks for these further thoughts.

 

The thing is I want better sound quality ideally with fewer boxes/cables and without me having to pay too much more for it.  I want my system to look good (or at least tidy) in the equipment rack placed unobtrusively away in the corner in my lounge - I listen exclusively through headphones these days.  The ideal for me would be just server, M Scaler and DAVE with the appropriate interconnects, power supplies and power cabling.  I don't do much streaming so have little interest in audiophile switches.

 

I was never much of a tinkerer, and am even less so today.  I am prepared to try different interconnects and power cables but do not want to be opening boxes and running additional wiring into them, not least because I have little technical knowledge and probably wouldn't know what I was doing.  This rules out the sclk ex approach for me, even though I have read countless times from those who have done this and obtained great results.

 

I also have my doubts over how much additional performance (if any) I would get from the external USB reclocker Innuos plan.  Would it be likely to deliver better performance than my standard tX-U (powered by a Paul Hynes SR4), or an upgraded tX-U with silver dc wiring, Evox caps, master clock input and emi absorbing paper?  I cannot imagine the Innuos unit costing less than £1,500, and it could well cost substantially more.  There is also the cost of a quality power cable and interconnect to consider (£500-£1k?).  Would it have the 1cm thick aluminium casing that would allow it to be stacked?  At the end of the day it still wouldn't be as good as the Statement.

 

If I stay with what I've got but upgrade the tX-U (£600) and add a REF 10 (£3,100), the cost of doing this would still be significant and might not exceed the performance of the Statement, or by very much, and I would have even more boxes and cables than I have now.

 

From all of this, I could conclude that trading in and getting the Statement is the best option for me.  But it is still easily the most expensive option, which for the moment is holding me back.

 

 

 

 

Zenith SE > USPCB (5v off) > tX-USBultra 9V (SR4) > Sablon Reserva Elite USB > M Scaler > WAVE Stream bnc > DAVE > Prion4/Lazuli Reference > Utopia/LCD-4/HE1000se

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There is only one server I would like to compare the Statement to, the Taiko Audio SGM Extreme.

I hope I can listen to both at HIGH END 2019 in Munich.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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31 minutes ago, lpost said:

Have a listen to the Pink Faun 2.16x.  Jord says they'll be there in Munich.

 

So far PF is not on the list of exhibitors in Munich.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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Hello, 

 

I placed an order for an Innuos Zenith Statement 4Tb (with Alex at Alma) and should receive it in a few weeks (and say goodbye to my Zenith SE).   I prefer the Ethernet output and welcome suggestions and listening notes for the best Ethernet cable (hopefully it should be very open, great midrange, extended on the top and bottom, and with lots of detail). 

Cheers, 

 

VPN

Cable Modem w/Mojo 5 power-> Innuos Zenith SE running Roon+Tidal-> Totaldac server-> Totaldac Twelve SE-> CH Precision L1+X1-> 2x Krell FPB 750mcx-> Modded Dunlavy SC-VI w/ Duelund crossovers  Cables: Kubala Realization (speaker), Echole Omnia 2x XLR and 3x AES, Totaldac Gigafilter USB,  Other: Echole Omnia power cables, SRA Scuttle mk.3 Rack, SRA VR 3.0 platforms, four dedicated 20A lines

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Sorry for this tardy post offering my thanks to @Blackmorecand @justubesfor those thoughts.    I thought I had posted it days ago, only to find a draft still sitting in the editor when I logged back in today.

 

As I do not have a master clock, and as my tX-USBultra does not have master clock input, it would seem that trading in my Zenith SE, a Chord Hugo TT 2 (not getting much use) and my tX-U for a Statement might be a cheaper way of getting more performance than adding master-clocking to my current setup.

 

i am hopeful of getting a loan of a Statement at some point over the next two weeks, which will allow me to compare with my SE in my own system.

 

Just downloaded issue 169 of HiFi+, which probably means issue 168 with the Statement review is now available in the States.

Zenith SE > USPCB (5v off) > tX-USBultra 9V (SR4) > Sablon Reserva Elite USB > M Scaler > WAVE Stream bnc > DAVE > Prion4/Lazuli Reference > Utopia/LCD-4/HE1000se

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str-1, 

 

If cost is not the consideration and the dealer gives a good trade for your SE, go for it by all means.

 

It will be the best choice.

 

In many cases, full retail and a low trade in on your, then you should consider the planned upgrade usb board for your SE.

 

There will be differences in having slightly different power supply and which is in a seperate box (provided if space is not of a concern and you are not going to stack them).

 

An upgraded oxco usb board and an careful investment is a great powercord and isolation may even possibly better or at least equally impressive result.

 

I see an upgrade from a SE to the Statement either when an upgrade bug strike or one has the clear intention to ultimately max out the Statement seeking various powercords, isolation etc. and ultimately, even upgrade again to the SGM server as mentioned above.

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  • 4 weeks later...
1 hour ago, str-1 said:

This is just a short post to tell of my experience with the Innuos Statement server I had on loan last week.

 

I didn’t manage to spend as much time as I would have liked listening critically to it in comparison with my Zenith SE.  Following Brexit (there’s simply no escaping it) and dealing with other things limited the time I had available, some of which I wasted playing around with different power cables before realising it was better for the comparison to run both units with the supplied cables.

 

My system for the comparison was DAVE, M Scaler, standard tX-USBultra (SR4-9v) and Focal Utopia (Prion4).  Power cables/smps were as supplied for servers and MSC, Shunyata Alpha HC for DAVE, and Jorma Trinity for SR4.  These cables were all plugged into a Shunyata Venom UK6 distribution block connected to a non-dedicated wall socket via a Shunyata Alpha EF cable.  WAVE Stream BNC cables connected DAVE/MSC.  A Lush^2 cable was used for the server/MSC and tX-U/MSC connections, and a Sablon Reserva Elite cable for the server/tX-U connection.

 

In straight head to head without the tX-U, the Statement (which had 200+ hours on it) was cleaner, unearthed more detail, had more body, depth and texture, and was a little darker.  Everything was more natural sounding and convincing.  The acoustic with choral and classical music was more natural, both in tone and weight.  These improvements were very clear to hear.

 

Introducing the tX-U helped the SE to narrow the gap, allowing it to show more delicacy, detail and focus.  Things were a little cleaner, though never as clean as the Statement.  But the downside for me was a slightly leaner sound, which is why I sometimes prefer to use the SE without the tX-U.  Bottom line, there was still a clear gap.  The Statement just sounded my believable with texture, tone, weight and acoustic.  I have yet to hear a tX-U with Evox caps and silver wiring but I am struggling to imagine that upgrade being able to take the SE up to the Statement’s level based on what I hear my tX-U doing.

 

Next up was to try the tX-U with the Statement.  There were differences but I’m not sure that for me they added up to a net improvement.  It sounded mostly like the tX-U was just imposing its character on the sound rather than improving the fundamentals.  I got no sense of it pulling out more information.  The sound was perhaps a little brighter with possibly a touch more emphasis on detail and air but it was also leaner, leaving me missing some of the Statement’s weight, especially the subtle weight around acoustics and with fine textural and tonal changes with choral pieces and with the complex sound surrounding the striking of gongs.

 

The Statement has now gone back and I am still undecided about upgrading.  Objectively (in as far as I can be objective), the differences between the SE/tX-U combo and Statement were not night and day.  But subjectively, I felt the differences to be important, which registered most strongly with me when I stopped trying to focus on performance and just listened to the music.

 

As with the SE, power cables do make a difference with the Statement.  But I did not have time to be clear on what each of my upmarket cables was doing.

 

 

Interesting, keep in mind that the SOtM tX-USB Ultra is very sensitive to power supplies and scales up nicely.   So if you acquire a SR7, it'll sound even better.

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