Innuos ZENith "STATEMENT"

[Blackmorec]

3ppb is a measure of how accurately a clock produces a designated frequency so is by definition not a measure of long term stability. A 3ppb accurate clock running at 10Mhz would therefore meet its designated frequency within 3 billionths of that frequency. Its long term stability would be the integration of that error rate and may be expressed as either a fixed error over a variable time period for example 1 second in 10,000 years  or as a variable error over a fixed time period, for example 0.000001 seconds per year. 

 

Whether a clock has good long term stability in a DAC is irrelevant, unless you’re using your DAC to wake you up every morning. The fact that you switch it off every day renders long term accuracy moot. What’s important it that when its switched on it defines the sampling rate accurately, which means how accurately does it produce its designated frequency. 

[Blackmorec]

My original post addressed your assertion that the parts per billion spec for an OCXO clock is a long term stability spec, which it isn’t. Its a short term accuracy spec. 

Regarding oscillator clocks, jitter is a measure of variations in the time domain

Phase noise is the resulting product of jitter in the frequency domain. The more time variation, the more frequency variation, hence the spectrum of phase noise. 

If you look at all the major oscillator manufacturers and resellers, they all spec their clock’s accuracy in ppm or ppb.  The lower the number, the more accurate the clock (the closer it comes to always producing the desired frequency) the less jitter and resulting phase noise.

 

I have several devices with high end clocks. They all benefit from a warm-up but there’s no real SQ benefit that I can hear from leaving them on 24/7 

Generally speaking, in terms of sound quality, a 30 minute warm up with signal flow is far more effective than leaving a device idling 24/7, as the idling device still requires the 30 minutes with signal to sound its best.  The only exception I’ve found was with my Naim Active System, which seemed to need several days to reach optimum performance and did indeed benefit from remaining on 24/7. And that system had no oscillators; until I added a CDS. 

[Blackmorec]

Thanks for the comment. 

If my explanation is incorrect, would you mind helping me understand the relationship between time related jitter and frequency related phase noise. 

Thanks!

[Blackmorec]

Here’s the website I use to check certain definitions

 

http://www.4timing.com/techoscillator.htm

 

As far I can see, the ppb spec defines maximum deviation, jitter is a statistical measure of time deviations and phase noise is basically a statistical measure of the results of jitter in the frequency domain. 

 

So, an oscillator with high ppm deviation will vary substantially from the nominal desired time or frequency, while an oscillator with low ppb deviation will exhibit very low deviation from the desired time or frequency. 

 

If I have this wrong, would you kind illustrate how and where. Thanks

[Blackmorec]

Hi Barrows,

Thanks for the info. 

[Blackmorec]

Given the degree of refinement engineered into the Statement’s USB its unlikely that a tx-USBUltra is going to further refine the signal.  Vibration control, EMI mitigation, OCXO 3ppb clock and direct coupling to custom designed discreet linear power supplies is not going to leave a lot of noise or jitter for a reclocking device to clean up, even when its connected to an external reference clock

I tried a tx-USBUltra with sps-500 with my Zenith SE but ended up preferring a direct USB connection via a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference. 

If I was looking to further gild the Statement Lilly I’d be looking at the upstream rather than downstream side. Downstream I’d just make sure that the Statement’s signal output integrity was protected with really good cables. 

[Blackmorec]

I really don’t see why that would be the case. Typically reclocking will bring benefits when the total jitter caused by the reclocking device, its interfaces, clock and interface cabling and noise introduced by cabling, clock control circuitry, power supplies etc is less that the jitter in the signal it is reclocking, otherwise reclocking will simply add noise (if the timing variations are random) and/or atonal intermodulation artefacts (if the timing variations are periodic). 

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/does-your-studio-need-digital-master-clock

 

Devices like the SoTM ts-USBUltra with master clock, introduce 2 extra power supplies with their inherent ripple and noise, 2 extra DC cables, an extra clock cable, 2 USB cables plus all the circuitry and interfaces of the devices themselves. Innuos has gone to a LOT of trouble to place the regulators of their power supply right next to the interface and clock, removing any DC cabling from the circuit, they have provided a 3ppb OCXO stabilised oscillator with its own ultra low noise LPS,  split their PS to remove vibration and noise, mounted their interface in a low EMI environment and minimised vibration. Its hard to see how the introduction of multiple boxes, boards, cables and power supplies is going to improve anything. It would be like taking a pure mountain spring and passing its water through a treatment works. 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

I have been an audiophile for well over 40 years and have learned quite a lot about setting up and getting the most out of the equipment I buy and I’ve chased the holy grail of 100% convincing music  for that entire time.  The Statement, together with some front end optimization has finally taken me to the point where I’d need to get a custom designed room built around some extremely exotic ‘high number’ Magico or similar speakers to make a significant improvement. 

The Zenith SE will get you 75-80 percent of the way there but that extra 20% is where beauty, purity and ability to utterly convince and enchant lives. How did Innuos design that into the Statement?  By minimising both internal and external EMI, creating a built-for-purpose motherboard, designing fully optimised power supplies for each component and re-inventing their topology, by minimising vibration,  minimising clock errors and removing critical clock and DC cable connections, and by removing as much noise and jitter as possible from incoming streams.  

Trying to emulate all these engineering measures by adding a large number of extra boxes, cables and connectors largely goes in the opposite direction, costs the same or more and is IMO unlikely to achieve the same SQ levels 

 

When I read your description of your system it really resonated. My system is set up solely for local and remote streaming and is extremely simple...comprising a fully optimised internet data stream based on Sean Jacobs LPSs, the Innuos Statement, Devialet 440 Expert Pro CI amps and speakers. Essentially a rack with 2 shelves. In your position I would either stick with what you have or go for a Statement. I would not try to achieve the Statement’s performance with what are essentially a series  of bandaids.  In summary I would say, if you have an SE but want Statement performance, buy a Statement. 

[Blackmorec]

I just went came back to this thread looking for a particular post and just thought it worth mentioning that with 200 hours, a Statement is nowhere near run-in. With its array of Mundorf capacitors the unit will produce its very best after ca. 4 months. It’ll sound great from the get go but the level of perfection the Statement is capable of will only fully reveal itself after a substantial period under power. 

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, str-1 said:

Interesting to learn that it takes this long for the caps to reach their peak.  The obvious question then to occur to me is how long do these caps stay performing at their peak before they can be expected to start deteriorating?  I remember from my Naim days many years ago that the caps Naim used in, for example, their power amps needed replacing periodically to keep these units performing at their peak.

Typically above a certain temperature, the hotter the environment in which caps run, the shorter their useful lifetime. The Statement power supply runs at a couple of degrees above room temperature so I would guess that their lifetime is basically that defined by Mundorf

[Blackmorec]

10 hours ago, JFHSQT said:

I figure this is as good a place to post as any...

 

Has anyone ever run into the issue on their Innuos dashboard where the Music Library, Import, and Quarantine options disappeared?

 

I just moved some files into my Auto Import folder last night and realized all 3 menu options had disappeared from my dash. 

 

Interested if anyone else has ever experienced this and if so, how it was remedied. 

 

Thanks!

Best place for a question like this is Innuos Support. With a simple phone call they can help you immediately without waiting and if there is a network issue, they’ll take a look and help you resolve it.  

[Blackmorec]

Here you go!

 

http://www.innuos.com/en/go/contact-us

 

[Blackmorec]

HI MS,  yes I too own and am extremely happy with my Innuos Statement. Its performance really established new standards for me but I have found in the 10 months of ownership that its performance can be further improved. 😀

 

Firstly I added a Synergistic Research power cable (UEF Black HC) and after a long and painful break-in it further opens up and refines the sound (its hard to fathom where those improvements will come from but they are there)

 

Then an even more significant improvement, that really elevates the Statement’s performance is the Chord Company umbilical cables that connect the 2 modules. With fully screened individual cores, the cables add further purity but more important incredibly well delineated 3 dimensionality, such that notes no longer just sound like instruments....they sound like they are coming from instruments.....along with even more naturalness and listener involvement. They cost me just under £1000 from Innuos. I honestly don’t think any Statement installation should be without them. 

 

One area I’ve been tempted to look into but didn’t so far is fuses.....which can bring benefits but which can also have downsides with qualities like PRaT, so a lot of care and caution is required in their selection, so I haven’t gone there yet. 

 

Another area I’m going to try is separating the 2 modules onto different shelves of my Finite Elemente Master Reference rack (absolutely brilliant piece of kit BTW, unfortunately no longer made).

 

Finally you asked about upstream. Here I have made many improvements which have a direct effect on SQ. Adding a better, 3 band router so I can dedicate one 5GHz band to audio, adding LPSs to both cable modem and router, adding a TPLink RE650 wi-fi extender to make the wi-fi link and isolate the hi-fi’s remote stream electrically, modifying the RE650 to remove its cheap and nasty SMPS and powering it with a Sean Jacobs designed and built DC3 LPS (same supply I use on the router and modem). Finally I use a DC3 powered AQVox SE switch with Neotech 16awg UPOCC 7N JSSG360 DC cable.   

I’m sure there are better switches than an AQVox SE but the DC3 seriously elevates its performance, as does the DC cable, so I’m not terribly motivated to join the EtherRegen scramble at this stage.  One omission I must mention, i’ve never tried the Statement without the AQVox and given that the Statement reclocks incoming ethernet, its not totally clear that the AQVox is actually needed, good as its sounds.  I really must try a direct connection 

 

Finally some other significant improvements in SQ came with the addition of SR Atmosphere X Ref USB and Ethernet cables. On my Innuos Zenith SE I actually much preferred the sound of SE to DAC direct via this USB cable than SE to TX-USBUltra to DAC, where the treble sounded slightly hyped and less natural in comparison. 

 

So where is my system today (apart from waiting for the Ghent Audio sourced DC cable to run in)?Essentially the system creates a 3 dimensional venue according to what is on the recording, populated by musicians that sound as if they are playing real 3 dimensional instruments (again assuming that’s on the recording). Walk into the room, switch off the lights, set the volume to minus 14.5dB, select your favourite album on Quboz, touch play, close your eyes and experience the thrill and shock of your entire reality changing. You’re suddenly in a completely different space, with a completely different atmosphere,  populated by musicians playing together in a wholly immersive 3 dimensional space that grabs your entire attention and doesn’t let go. You can literally get to the end of an album before you ‘resurface’. Its the sort of fully immersive, fully believable listening experience i’ve been aiming for for over 40 years. Personally I would never have dreamed that this would be possible from simple Red Book files. Its absolutely amazing just how much information is on there and what your brain can construct with it. 

 

Simple question, long answer. I hope it has some value for you 😀 

[Blackmorec]

42 minutes ago, str-1 said:

A helpful post.  One thing you mentioned that I had previously asked Chord Company about is the umbilical cable they make.  I think I understand it is just the longer length cable that is shielded/screened in the way you describe. I assume from your mention of intending to separate the Statement boxes that you have the longer length cables.

Thanks!  Unfortunately I know nothing about the Chord Cable range regarding the umbilicals, other than what i’ve mentioned. I bought mine through Innuos.  Mine are indeed 50cm in order to (as you correctly surmised) separate the modules onto 2 shelves. I haven’t done this as yet because I’ve been travelling and waiting for the umbilical cables and DC cables to burn-in so I can clearly hear the effects of separation. 

What I did decide when I saw the price of the umbilicals was that they had to warrant their price on sound quality alone. It took about 300 hours of ‘switched-on time’ to get to the point I was absolutely sure they were well worth their money from a SQ standpoint. They add another layer of realism to the music which is almost always worth paying something significant for. 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

Hi Anwar,

An audiophile grade SATA cable? Can you post links to the manufacturer who is producing SATA cables optimised for sound quality.....I could be interested in other, network products they have that don’t involve potentially voiding my warranty. Thanks

[Blackmorec]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Hi @Blackmorec,

 

it would be really nice if you can try it and share your impressions.

 

Thanks

 

Matt

Hi Matt, that's going to take a while I'm afraid as I'm breaking in a new DC cable from DC3 to AQVox and it all sounds slightly off at the moment.  Given that adding a better LPS to the AQVox made a large positive improvement its unlikely that a direct connection is going to sound better as that would infer that the AQVox is somehow dragging down the performance.....but you never know. That's exactly what happened when I added USB reclocking. 

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, str-1 said:

Has anyone any experience of comparing the umbilicals made by Chord Company with the cables supplied with the Statement?

Hi str-1,

Initially I wanted 50cm cables so I could try splitting the Statement across 2 shelves of my Finite Element Pagode Master Reference, but when I heard the price of almost £1000 I decided that they had to justify their cost based entirely on sound quality improvements.  The cables takes upwards of 300 hours to fully break-in but once they do, they absolutely do justify their price by significantly extending all the Statement’s wonderful performance attributes to reach absolutely stellar levels.  

One of the things I love to do is start a listening session with Radio Swiss Classics. Its 128kbps internet radio that sounds wonderful via a Statement and they play exceptionally good music with just simple announcements and no adverts.  The sound represents what most audiophiles would consider to be an outstanding stereo performance with great tonal accuracy, loads of timbral detail, great PRaT and sense of propulsion, timing, sound stage ya di ya.  Thoroughly enjoyable. After 30 to 60 minutes of listening to these wonderful performances I switch to local or remote streaming, hit play, close my eyes and I’m instantly immersed in this huge 3 dimensional,  totally altered reality with musicians and voices suspended in space, sounding spookily real, like the listening room and all the air in it has suddenly vanished and been replaced by whatever beautiful acoustic space and textures are on the recording, populated by musicians each in their place and playing together with a vibrancy I’ve rarely heard,  creating musical performances that are simply stunning. Take Mike Oldfield’s Tubular Bells 2003 or Jan Garbarek’s Legend of the Seven Dreams and they’ll utterly blow your mind....with their illuminated treble, primal rhythms, huge sound stages and some of the most beautiful horn and guitar tones you’ll hear in recorded music. Try Cat Stevens or JJ Cale and you’ll be amazed how much more detailed and alive they sound. You’ll be amazed at the percussiveness of notes and their beauty as they decay into distant eerie silence.  So yes, these umbilicals do take the Statement to the next level...definitely worth getting

 

 

[Blackmorec]

Hi onlychild, unfortunately I can’t at the moment.  They are very unremarkable looking, black, well made, good quality plugs, just slightly thicker than the OEMs but otherwise not much different looking. 

[Blackmorec]

5 hours ago, howiebrou said:

What is the connector connecting the transport to the LPS?I presume it must be a standard  connector so you are not restricted just to using Chord cables?

Bear in mind that the umbilicals carry 8 DC rails between them. I don’t think Innuos or Chord manufacture plugs so they must have bought them somewhere but I’ve no idea from whom. 

Also bear in mind that with the Chord cables, each conductor is individually screened so again, no idea how those screens are connected. 

[Blackmorec]

Hi str-1, its going to be a while until i can install 1.4.4 on my Statement, so in the meantime I’d be very interested in getting feedback on how the SQ has evolved. 

 

 

[Blackmorec]

9 hours ago, Kimo said:

 

Nice upgrade on my lowly Zenith II.  I imagine the SE will really shine.

 

Improvements across the sonic board.

I would never call the sound from a Zenith II lowly....just a few short years ago it would have been considered SoTA. Take care to optimise the network feed (Router, cables, power supplies, vibration control) and you have a system that can perform at an exceptional level vs the investment required. Good to hear that 1.4.4 brings across the board improvements......I was really pleased with what 1.4.3 did for my system so if this is of the same order I’ll be very happy. 

[Blackmorec]

Hi there,

As far as I know InnuOS buffers albums and tracks to the internal RAM then shuts down network functions before playing, so the Statement is not constantly streaming over the network while playing music.  My system has close to 500 Mbps, so the loading of tracks and albums takes a fraction of a second. 

 

If you want to improve SQ, take a look at the network itself and the power supplies it uses.  In my system, improving those power supplies and cables have brought the largest improvements. The other major improvement will come from isolating your Statement and its network from the rest of your household network traffic. 

[Blackmorec]

Hi Kenny, Luca,

Interesting series of posts. Kenny, I was happy you mentioned ‘the energy they put into blowing could almost be felt”. This is exactly the phenomenon I have been posting about ever since I added DC3s then DC4s to my network. The music has so much energy that there’s now a physical side to listening. Not the trouser flapping, huge sub-woofer style, more a solidarity and vibrancy that you often feel at live music events where the sound seems to energise your very being, without itself being hugely loud or penetrating. It just feels like a direct connection from the performer’s instrument to your body.

In my system, key to hearing this effect were Sean Jacobs PSs on the network.

 

The Next Gen upgrade to the Statement is phenomenal. Mine is still running in but there’s already tons of that magic ingredient that make you feel like you’re in the venue with the musicians, 

  

[Blackmorec]

Hi Matthias,

No I haven’t heard the Pulsar. I heard the middle of the range Pulse at the North West Audio show and it was one of literally a handful of rooms that was worth a listen, but prevailing show conditions were such that all I can say is that it sounded typically Innuos (very natural, musical, non-digital) and therefore ‘showed’ a lot of promise. 

[Blackmorec]

23 hours ago, luca.pelliccioli said:

Hi Nuno,

 

really thank you for your advice, very useful to go on the right way. I'll take into consideration. In effect you helped me a lot because I'm planning to use the brand new PS Audio AirLens, see here the recent video from Paul McGowan, from the ZENith > PhoenixNET (via ethernet) to the PS Audio DS DAC (via I2S):

https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/unveiling-the-ps-audio-airlens/

 

You can see in signature my actual system, at the moment I'm temporarily going USB through a Matrix (2), that outperforms IME the USB directly to the DAC (3) connection but next weeks I have to choose between:

1> Ethernet - AirLens - I2S to DAC

2> USB - Matrix - I2S to DAC

3> USB directly to to DAC

 

PS Audio guys know very well Innuos gear, I know, and they firmly suggest an I2S connection to their DS DAC. On the other hand Innuos philosophy tends to prefer USB connections. A sort of dilemma I suppose to solve only by ears, as usual!

 

And, as a consequence of the above points, I need to choose between my actual ZENith+Phoenix and Statement+Phoenix.

I was just wondering how the Statement, in this case, can bring to system compared to my actual ZENith set up.

 

Any suggestion will be very appreciate.

 

Congrats for your products, I'm loving them so much! And your customer service too, really remarkable, well done Nuno!

Hi Luca,

i have owned a Zenith MkII SE, a Statement, a Statement + PhoenixNET and a Statement NextGen + PhoenixNET. 

 

At the point of making each upgrade i was perfectly happy with the sound i was getting and found it hard to imagine where the upgraded SQ would come from. And yet each upgrade delivered what i considered to be worth every penny and more of what I paid. 

Your system still has plenty of scope for a major source upgrade to be fully reflected in the final sound. 

What  I discovered is that while each of the upgrades provide very significant improvements in all the normal hi-fi related attributes, the biggest impact was on my reaction to and enjoyment of the music.  As the system gets better and better it gets harder and harder to analyse the music’s individual qualities as you are being overwhelmed by the beauty of the music and its message. Its hard to express the magic at work but you’ll know exactly what i mean the day the system reaches its fully burned in point and you are swept away by profoundly beautiful music.  

And the more you refine your network, the better it all gets so your system has a really cool upgrade path that brings big rewards for reasonable money and provides many upgrade opportunities. And what I really like about all this is that the baseline…the sound before any changes is a really, really nice place to be with no major errs or errors, but the improvements are often quite profoundly better in terms of musical performance and your reaction/response. Win/win ….you’re in a nice place and the network allows you to get onto a much higher plane.  So what I’m saying is; the PhoenixNET - Zenith is a very very nice place to be. But the PhoenixNET - Statement NG - is on a different level, that takes the illusion of being in a venue with the performers to an altogether higher plane…..including both physical and psychological aspects and effects that change the way you hear and feel the whole musical presentation.   

We’re not talking hi-fi related terms any more, we’re talking physical reactions like genuine shivers down the spine, tears, breath holding, skin and bone sensations of ‘feeling’ the music pulse through you.

I listen a lot to Swiss Radio Classics and pay a great deal of attention to the announcers voices. They were recorded in different venues, by different people over a 20 year period.  I have found that these voices provide an excellent barometer on the status of my system. I can tell when a new component is running in and I can detect changes as the burn-in develops. The human voice seems to have 2 high level characteristics….the voice itself and the personal characteristics of the announcer. With the Zenith SE i could not hear much of the very subtle personal elements….the voice was chrystal clear but the subtle influences of body behind the voice wasn’t. With the NG Statement the person behind the voice emerges and you hear a real person vs a finely recorded and reproduced voice. Hopefully I have managed to convey the type of uplift in SQ the NG Statement brings. If your barometer to hi-fi value is the way your systems allows you to respond to the music, how intensely it generates feelings and  emotions and lets you hear the musical message then you’ll love the NG Statement