Innuos ZENith "STATEMENT"

[nvitorino]

Hi everyone,

 

A quick clarification: the ethernet uses a separate clock (and separate power supply for each clock) from USB. Ethernet uses a 25MHz clock whereas USB uses a 24MHz clock. The Ethernet clock works for both ethernet ports.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

3 hours ago, str-1 said:

@nvitorino Nuno, would this re-clocker improve on the re-clocked USB output on the Statement?

 

https://darko.audio/2019/09/innuos-to-launch-phoenixusb-re-clocker-with-a-b-demos/

 

Hi,

 

The PhoenixUSB contains the same USB reclocker board design as the Statement plus two linear power supplies dedicated to USB, just like the Statement. On our tests, the PhoenixUSB does not improve the USB reclocker output of the Statement. In fact, there seems to be a slight degradation due to the extra cabling required.

 

The PhoenixUSB is intended mainly for ZENith/ZENith SE users who would like to get their sound quality closer to a Statement. You can use the reclocker though with any USB output from any streamer or computer, it's not specific to Innuos.

 

If anyone is planning to visit RMAF I'll be happy to demo it personally. 

[nvitorino]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:44 AM, monteverdi said:

I wonder how much the quality of the server makes a difference with the PhoenixUSB. 

I had significant issues with using Roon on my Zentih II and it may be a problem with Roon but possibly also with the processor requirements of Roon which Innuos can not fully meet. So would be servers like Roon Nucleus+ with the PhoenixUSB completive with the Innuos servers?

 

Hi,

 

Regarding any issues with Roon with the Zenith II I'm not sure if you contact our support but I would really like to dispel the myth about the processor requirements. We haven't seen any issues with CPU performance issues even handling 15TB worth of music. As we state on our Roon page (http://www.innuos.com/en/go/roon), the only real constraint you have with CPU power is when upsampling music above DSD128.  Any customers having issues with Roon just contact us on support so we can eventually have a look and try to identify the root cause of the problem. A lot of issues have been solved with Roon updates, some require updates on our side for OS libraries or and some are issues with the Roon DB - these are the most frequent causes.

 

With regards to the Phoenix, we did test a number of sources. I can safely say we haven't reached the "Holy Grail" of making music completely source independent. I makes a difference on any source we tested (apart from the Statement which already includes it) but it does not turn, let's say, a laptop into a Statement. At RMAF, we did demonstrate the same track on a ZENith, then ZENith + Phoenix and then Statement. You can still easily hear a difference between the ZEnith + Phoenix and Statement.

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

1 hour ago, JFHSQT said:

Thanks - unfortunately they have no US support number. Was hoping they'd answer the email or I could find the answer on a forum somewhere. I may have to make the international call if I can't get any response from them by the end of the day. 

 

You can PM me with your email and I'll check on the tickets. We had a similar question about 3 days ago and we did answer that back immediately - not sure if it was you or if you received the answer.

 

Anyway, Quarantine, Music Library and Import will not show when in Roon Mode with the Experimental Squeezelite integration is selected. We have to turn off our Music Library for the Squeezelite Integration to work and that prevents those features from working, so we disable them.

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

On 9/22/2019 at 9:25 AM, str-1 said:

@nvitorinoNuno, would be great to have your comments once you’ve had chance to look into this.

Hi everyone,

 

We're following up on this but it does not seem to be any kind of a critical issue. The problems identified seem to occur only in specific circumstances in the LPC, SD Card or RTC system, although Intel does not detail them. Our systems do not use the LPC bus and SD Card so on those two there would be no issue. On the RTC potentially but we need more clarification about the conditions where it does fail or for which subsystems. If this is only related to the LPC bus then it should not affect our products at all - the LPC bus is mostly used by legacy devices - see definition here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Pin_Count

 

From my initial reading it does not mean at all the Apollo Lake are "dying".  They will have a new revision with the F-1 Stepping. This is exactly the reason we only opt for motherboards with long availability dates - they have a much better commitment to their continuity. On a consumer board this would just be discontinued and job done.

 

So far we haven't detected any of our systems with a fault like this but we will seek further clarification from Intel to know the circumstances under which problems can occur and whether those may or not affect our systems.

 

We'll keep you posted.

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

6 hours ago, matthias said:

@nvitorino

 

According to Innuos HP Innuos will be at X-FI Show but Innuos has disappeared from the exhibitor list.

 

Please, can you shed some light on this?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

I can confirm we will be at X-Fi on Room 35 - we'll be sharing the room with Chord Electronics. We're sorting out the listing with the X-Fi organization.

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

33 minutes ago, FredM said:

Looking forward to it this weekend, I hope the Phoenix is there also. Would be great to hear the impact it makes. 

Hi,

 

Yes, the Phoenix will be there (and so will I). We did have a last minute change and we moved to room 18 together with Chord Electronics, which is a 50 m2 room. Do come and say hi and I'll be happy to demo the system with and without Phoenix. 

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

5 hours ago, Yorkshireman said:

Firstly when did Computer Audiophile become Audiophile Style? And why? 

 

Secondly thanks for posting the video, it's just a shame that Nuno didn't also compare the Statement in the demo. Because that is what everyone that owns an SE will wan't to hear.

 

Hi,

 

We did the comparison between the ZENith, ZENith + PhoenixUSB and Statement at RMAF, though not for that video. There is still a difference between the ZENith + PhoenixUSB and the Statement as the Statement is more than just adding a reclocker board. Some thought the difference was considerable and others thought it was more subtle but clearly there. Do take into consideration that the SE is superior to the ZENith MK3 so it will be closer to the Statement than the ZENith. But not even the Statement board USB output connected to the PhoenixUSB sounds like the reclocked USB output of the Statement - this is where short signal paths make a difference...

 

This is something I write based on the feedback of a few hundred visitors that heard the comparison at RMAF, X-Fi and WestDeutsche Shows. I maintain my opinion that SE users will be very happy with the improvement the PhoenixUSB considering the investment of getting a PhoenixUSB vs selling the SE and buying a Statement. 

As always, if you have the chance, have a listen for yourselves so you can make your own decision.

 

[nvitorino]

Hi everyone,

 

For those of you in the UK, we will have a ZENith SE with PhoenixUSB for A/B at the HifiShow Live on the 26th/27th. There will be set times for demonstrations so if you have the chance, you're more than welcome to come and have a listen. Bring a stick with your music if you like and we can load it up.

 

Nuno

 

 

[nvitorino]

For those who had the ZENith SE and now have a Statement, they can easily simulate the effect of the Phoenix USB - just connect your DAC to the regular USB output on the Statement then connect it to the DAC USB output. The change you will hear is pretty much what you get with a PhoenixUSB. There's a bit less refinement with the added cable on a PhoenixUSB compared to the Statement DAC output (which has much shorter signal paths) but the kind of change is similar.

 

Although these things are always subjective, one thing I am very confident in saying: With a ZEnith SE, the change in sound in not subtle at all. Of course you will have to decide if you like the change or not...

[nvitorino]

6 hours ago, str-1 said:

@nvitorinoHi Nuno, can you provide an update on development of the Innuos control app, and perhaps comment on the issues raised in this post on the Head-fi Chord DAVE thread regarding sound quality differences when using different control apps?  Thanks. 
 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/post-15954517

 

 

Starting with the "Innuos control app", what we are doing is revamping the entire OS and not just adding a control app on top of the existing system. The app will be part of innuOS 2.0, which has been in the works for two years now. It is a major difference on the user experience you have now. It's now getting close to Beta release so we will soon start publishing information how it looks and new features, stay tuned.

 

Regarding the differences between "different control apps": The question is not the control app itself but the underlying technology used to playback the music. if your are using innuOS and say iPeng (iOS) and compare it to OrangeSqueeze (Android), they should sound exactly the same. They simply send network commands to the server, it's the server that plays all the music. If you use the Web player on the :9000 port, again it does exactly the same thing - send the play, next, volume, etc commands over the network in order to play the music. If differences are heard, check if things like volume are at 100%. Unless there is something we are not seeing, there should be no differences in sound quality between the different apps connecting to the LMS on our servers. 

 

innuOS 2.0 is a different OS altogether. It's not the fact there's a new app to control it that makes any difference in playback. These are things much more at the music player application and the base OS itself. I think there is simply confusion about the definition of "app". We tend to think "app" as the control application and nothing more. Some think of the "app" as the entire OS.

 

When other methods are used like Roon or UPnP, they use other methods of playback which is processed in completely different ways. This may lead to differences in sound, better or worse - you decide.

 

P.S. Regarding Roon in experimental mode, squeezelite is called with a different set of parameters compared to when used with iPeng/OrangeSqueeze, etc. This can lead to differences in sound quality. Some may prefer one or the other - this is audio - there is no single universal best...

 

[nvitorino]

16 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Will there still be an experimental mode or something equivalent to this mode in innuOS 2.0?  Roon’s sound quality really benefits from not having playback performed by Roon itself.

 

Yes, we plan to keep experimental mode in innuOS2.0.

[nvitorino]

Hi Luca,

 

I  don't usually post around advice topics as I believe other users can provide you less biased opinions but would just like to add one thing: If you decide to go to with a Statement with Next Gen upgrade, this will not replace the PhoenixNET. Contrary to the PhoenixUSB, which the Statement does have integrated directly inside, the PhoenixNET is different from the OCXO board we use to clock the internal Ethernet controller. While the OCXO board on the Statement is essentially to improve timing and noise internally to the Statement, the PhoenixNET deals more effectively with external noise and focus on sending a signal as pristine as we can in terms of timing and noise to the Statement. This way, even on the Statement with Next Gen upgrade, we can audibly hear the influence of the PhoenixNet.

 

This is just to refer your base of comparison should be ZENith + PhoenixUSB compared to Statement Next Gen.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Best,

 

Nuno

[nvitorino]

13 hours ago, str-1 said:

Hi Nuno. That’s good to know. I’ll try the PhoenixNET with my Statement.
 

Can you say anything about expectations for how quickly Innuos can upgrade power supplies for existing Statement owners? I’ve been on the list for upgrade since late June.

 

Hi,

 

Regarding upgrades, the issue is the AVC platform as our supplier is struggling to deliver these. We have received a small batch lately so we will progress with some more upgrades but it will take at least 1-2 months until we expect to have our requested batch in full for all upgrades. It's a real struggle every day with the supply chain...

 

You can ping me directly and I'll check where you are in the backlog.

[nvitorino]

15 hours ago, MasonStorm said:

Following one of the recent InnuOS System Updates for my STATEMENT (about a month ago), my system has been sounding tinny and hollow, lacking in dynamic range, bass extension, and bass impact. This experience has only been slightly mitigated by another, more recent update from InnuOS, followed by a slightly more healing update from Roon. However, with all the latest updates in place, the system is still far from what it was two months ago. Has anyone else experienced something similar with their STATEMENT? If it matters, I have one of the older models, obtained in 2019. I’m assuming that they are still supporting this model with their software updates, and not just doing so for the newer model - the one with the newer power supply, and other, better internals. My fear is that the updates are all geared toward that newer model, and that when they take effect, this older model might see more and more deleterious effects on its sound.

 

Hi,

 

The latest updates should not have any significant impact on sound quality. The only change that has been made is regarding WAV playback in order to support 32bit files (ex: from PGGB) but we didn't notice any impact on sound quality. The updates are done for all models from the Mk2 series upwards and we don't fine tune any settings for Statement compared to Next Gen LPSU. In fact, from a software perspective, we can't distinguish both units. I don't see anything from the update that could affect sound just on the Statement and not others. Feel free to reach out on our Support email and we can do a remote session to have a look at the system and check if we see anything out of place.

 

Best,

 

Nuno