Article: Introducing Tonal: A Minimalist Music App for Collectors and Audiophiles

[jkelly]

Like to try, but not ready to upgrade to High Sierra.

[jhwalker]

I've tried it for a while, but a couple of recurring issues keep it from being more than a curiosity for now:

 

1) At least half of my downloads or rips apparently contain a track that is considered a "Broken audio file", though the same files process just fine with any other player, including Roon which does error checking.

2) Of the remaining half, at least 50% generate an error message "Disc is too long to be a valid audio disc” - this can happen with digital downloads that are the equivalent of a single disc or several discs (e.g., new recording of the recent NBC TV broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar, the recent release of the complete Brahms Symphonies by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra with Ticciati).  Either way, processing stops at that point.

3) Some discs generate an error, "Disc could not be verified" (e.g., Original Studio Recording of Jesus Christ Superstar)

 

So right now, only about 20-25% of my collection can be imported.  Until these issues are corrected, it's will not be able to continue testing.

 

PS - I very much like the interface and would certainly consider giving it another try in the future.

[firedog]

11 minutes ago, jhwalker said:

I've tried it for a while, but a couple of recurring issues keep it from being more than a curiosity for now:

 

1) At least half of my downloads or rips apparently contain a track that is considered a "Broken audio file", though the same files process just fine with any other player, including Roon which does error checking.

2) Of the remaining half, at least 50% generate an error message "Disc is too long to be a valid audio disc” - this can happen with digital downloads that are the equivalent of a single disc or several discs (e.g., new recording of the recent NBC TV broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar, the recent release of the complete Brahms Symphonies by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra with Ticciati).  Either way, processing stops at that point.

3) Some discs generate an error, "Disc could not be verified" (e.g., Original Studio Recording of Jesus Christ Superstar)

 

So right now, only about 20-25% of my collection can be imported.  Until these issues are corrected, it's will not be able to continue testing.

 

PS - I very much like the interface and would certainly consider giving it another try in the future.

Yeah, it was already said that the database only accepts digital downloads that have an equivalent disc in the database. In the case of the digital download being sequenced, etc., a little differently than what's on a disc, it doesn't work.

[baoshan]

1 hour ago, jhwalker said:

I've tried it for a while, but a couple of recurring issues keep it from being more than a curiosity for now:

 

1) At least half of my downloads or rips apparently contain a track that is considered a "Broken audio file", though the same files process just fine with any other player, including Roon which does error checking.

2) Of the remaining half, at least 50% generate an error message "Disc is too long to be a valid audio disc” - this can happen with digital downloads that are the equivalent of a single disc or several discs (e.g., new recording of the recent NBC TV broadcast of Jesus Christ Superstar, the recent release of the complete Brahms Symphonies by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra with Ticciati).  Either way, processing stops at that point.

3) Some discs generate an error, "Disc could not be verified" (e.g., Original Studio Recording of Jesus Christ Superstar)

 

So right now, only about 20-25% of my collection can be imported.  Until these issues are corrected, it's will not be able to continue testing.

 

PS - I very much like the interface and would certainly consider giving it another try in the future.

 

 

Hi jhwalker,

 

Thank you for your feedback!

 

On “Broken audio file”

Could you PM one of the broken audio file Tonal reported?

 

On “Disc is too long to be a valid audio disc”

Currently, if you help Tonal by separate the files into folders of discs (e.g. Disc1, Disc2, etc.), Tonal may be able to process the album. That’s far from ideal, I believe there’re better ways.

 

On “Disc could not be verified”

I may be asking too much: could you use a standalone AccurateRip / CUETools verifier to verify if the album is verifiable? Redbook discs failed to pass AccurateRip / CUETools verification will be rejected by Tonal.

 

Thanks,

Baoshan

[Joebah]

15 hours ago, mneveux said:

Thank you Baoshan,

 

It is a very popular DAC in the USA so will be worth the time to figure it out. I am in no rush. I am sure you have many things to work on.

 

Regards,

 

Marc

Tonal works fine with my Schiit Bifrost and external speakers.

[6sigma]

As an advocate for Google's ecosystem' I use Android on a Pixel 2 XL & Chrome OS on a Chromebook. However, when the time came to rip my CDs, I had to set up a Windows machine with external drives and all the right software. Google offered a Google Play Music Manager that uploaded my FLAC files to Google Play Music as I ripped them. Today, playback of that music amounts to streaming 320K mp3 files - not FLAC files. Playlists in Google Play Music (GPM) consist of songs I previously ripped as well as songs I can stream as a result of my $10 per month membership in GPM. Soooo...offer Tonal's promised functionality on Chromebooks or Android phones with full integration of my GPM library & playlists and, I'm all in.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hello, do you plan on publishing a Windows version ?

EDIT: just saw you already answered that question earlier.

[baoshan]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Hello, do you plan on publishing a Windows version ?

EDIT: just saw you already answered that question earlier.

 

Hi hopkins,

 

Thank you for your suggestion!

 

After the majority of macOS/iOS users are satisfied with the reference Tonal experience, a Windows clone will be scheduled.

[mneveux]

1 hour ago, Joebah said:

Tonal works fine with my Schiit Bifrost and external speakers.

I see from your sig, you have a Bifrost Multibit, mine is the Bifrost 4490.

[AudioDoctor]

You want me to upload my music to your amazon server?

 

ah, no.

[R1200CL]

What does this SW add, that I can’t have in Roon ?

[baoshan]

2 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

You want me to upload my music to your amazon server?

 

ah, no.

 

Hi AudioDoctor,

 

Thank you for your feedback!

 

From an end user’s point of view, Tonal functions as a specialized version of Dropbox (listed on NASDAQ last month IIRC) or iCloud Drive, focusing on lossless audio, with AccurateRip and CUETools built-in  (besides the hosted metadata solution and the audiophile playback engine).

 

In the mean time, as technology permits, Tonal is willing to evaluate decentralized storage solutions to completely eliminate any 3rd party in the storage-access chain.

 

My 1st hand survey reveals many audiophiles already use cloud services to store their music collection. Tonal is designed to push their experience to the next level.

 

 

[mneveux]

Tonal looks very promising and initial reports are that the audio sounds very good. Hopefully I will be able to experience it myself soon but it currently does not work with my Schiit Bifrost 4490.

[baoshan]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

What does this SW add, that I can’t have in Roon ?

 

Hi R1200CL,

 

Thank you for your wonderful question!

 

Room is a great software, I am sure there’re more CA community members who are more qualified than me to compare Roon with Tonal. I’m just sharing my $0.02 here:

 

Tonal has a secure CD ripper built-in. You can directly collect physical discs into your collection.

 

Tonal collection is cloud based. You do not need to maintain local storage solutions. Your music is ready to be streamed anytime, anywhere.

 

Tonal has AccurateRip and CUETools built-in. All Redbook format you streamed is guaranteed to be accurate.

 

Tonal has a micro kernel of less than 50 disassembly instructions to talk with the HAL layer. This, together with other important decisions, gives Tonal a more predictable audiophile performance. Read more on medium.

 

Tonal incorporates a new metadata engine. Please see the screenshots I put in the article and see the difference. If you prefer, I can provide some same albums rendered in both Tonal and Roon for your reference.

 

I suggest you take 20 minutes to read 3 more articles on Tonal internals. You can find more different decisions Tonal made, in compared with Roon or Audirvana. I believe your 20 minutes will be rewarded.

 

https://medium.com/tonal-app

 

Thanks,

Baoshan

 

 

 

 

[baoshan]

18 minutes ago, mneveux said:

Tonal looks very promising and initial reports are that the audio sounds very good. Hopefully I will be able to experience it myself soon but it currently does not work with my Schiit Bifrost 4490.

 

Hi mneveux, I’m sure your 4490 could work fine. With the device in hand I think it will take me less than half a day to identify and solve the issue. But please understand as I’m exploring possibilities to find financial support to bring a dedicated team in to boost the Tonal experience to a new level, the Bifrost 4490 issue may still be there for a while. I’m really, really sorry.

 

 

[R1200CL]

18 minutes ago, baoshan said:

Tonal collection is cloud based.

 

Can I choose which cloud service I like to use in order to store my rips ?

 

 

[mneveux]

19 minutes ago, baoshan said:

 

Hi mneveux, I’m sure your 4490 could work fine. With the device in hand I think it will take me less than half a day to identify and solve the issue. But please understand as I’m exploring possibilities to find financial support to bring a dedicated team in to boost the Tonal experience to a new level, the Bifrost 4490 issue may still be there for a while. I’m really, really sorry.

 

 

Thank you Baoshan,

 

I understand and no problem at all.

 

Marc

19 minutes ago, baoshan said:

 

 

[baoshan]

19 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Can I choose which cloud service I like to use in order to store my rips ?

 

 

 

The files Tonal secured in the cloud are of proprietary format (for best streaming performance) which means no other applications can read the file(s) Tonal produced.

 

Tonal uses low level cloud storage, not end-user friendly cloud drive. As technology evolves, Tonal will continuously improving the architecture of her infrastructure.

 

Currently I can not see why one service is preferable over another. One exception is for users living in China, where oversea bandwidth is throttled.

 

Please correct me if I missed something. Thanks!

[ted_b]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

What does this SW add, that I can’t have in Roon ?

Right now? about $500 in your pocket.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Mike27]

Thanks to joebah and baoshan for exploring the needle drop issue. Since more than half my files are from vinyl, I’ll keep an eye on this. 

[baoshan]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Right now? about $500 in your pocket.

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

Hi ted_b,

 

Thank you very much for mentioning the pricing difference!

 

I want to clarify one thing: Tonal MAY NOT always be free for unlimited collection size.

 

Tonal is 1% finished. I’m not saying there’ll be 100 times more features. I’m saying an experience which is 100 times leaner, more intuitive and fluid, more stable and performant, plus, a new ecosystem involving labels, audio equipment brands, and most importantly, the community.

 

To support such a vision of the future, Tonal may introduce tiered pricing policy. But, due to the complete end-to-end ecosystem, I’ll first try to explore innovative ways to keep Tonal free to end-users while still be profiting to support a dedicated team.

 

Thanks,

Baoshan

[DavidL]

Congratulations on having the courage to tackle this from a fresh perspective.

I can see one problem with your approach as applied to the metadata for classical music. Your fundamental basis is transferring CD albums to cloud storage while retaining the enclosed album structure. For me the fundamental element in classical music is the 'work'. A particular work is likely to appear in different combinations with other works on other classical CD albums. How do you cope with the situation where a listener wishes to see all performances of a particular work in his library in order to choose one for replay? I guess you would need to use a powerful search engine to achieve this with a system of metadata based on CD albums? If however you used classical 'works' as your fundamental element such a search would be trivial. Any thoughts?

David

 

[baoshan]

10 minutes ago, DavidL said:

Congratulations on having the courage to tackle this from a fresh perspective.

I can see one problem with your approach as applied to the metadata for classical music. Your fundamental basis is transferring CD albums to cloud storage while retaining the enclosed album structure. For me the fundamental element in classical music is the 'work'. A particular work is likely to appear in different combinations with other works on other classical CD albums. How do you cope with the situation where a listener wishes to see all performances of a particular work in his library in order to choose one for replay? I guess you would need to use a powerful search engine to achieve this with a system of metadata based on CD albums? If however you used classical 'works' as your fundamental element such a search would be trivial. Any thoughts?

David

 

 

Hi DavidL,

 

Thank you for your comment.

 

I’m waiting for some classical guys for the last 48+ hours. It’s my honor to discuss related topics with you!

 

I’ve studied classical music metadata for 10+ years. My research is quoted by university professors in Europe and China. Believe me or not, I understand your concern.

 

You mentioned the concept of “work”. Actually, if you check the Sokolov picture in my article, you can see the work is modeled accurately. I’ve attached more pictures for you to inspect the modeling of classical works in Tonal.

 

All the pictures I provided is under the context of an “album”, which confuses you to start worrying about Tonal not being able to provide interaction approaches to show all recordings of Mahler’s “Titan”, or all Goldberg recordings by G. Gould. But please blame me for not implemented that feature yet, the Tonal metadata model is far beyond supporting such capabilities.

 

Have you read the metadata article on Medium?

 

Please let me know if you have further questions.

 

Regards,

Baoshan

 

 

 

 

 

[firedog]

I'm a Windows user so this isn't for me, but I love the idea and will certainly try it out when the Windows clone is written. 

A proper audiophile cloud based solution would be great. The Roon people have said they may add a streaming feature to Roon at some point - but it would be based on your Roon home server streaming your music to your remote Roon app on your mobile device. 

[DavidL]

3 hours ago, baoshan said:

All the pictures I provided is under the context of an “album”, which confuses you to start worrying about Tonal not being able to provide interaction approaches to show all recordings of Mahler’s “Titan”, or all Goldberg recordings by G. Gould. But please blame me for not implemented that feature yet, the Tonal metadata model is far beyond supporting such capabilities.

 

Have you read the metadata article on Medium?

 

 

Yes, I had read your article - you obviously appreciate the difficulties involved in handling the metadata for classical music!

In the absence of anything better when I started assembling my computer-based music library I used what I thought was the best then available (about 20 years ago). Since then I've used iTunes to edit metadata (but not as a music player) and redefined the 'album' property as 'work'. Your approach should be more comprehensive but, as I noted previously, you are likely to need a fast and efficient search method to extract works from your metadata for CD albums.

I'll follow your development work with interest.

David