semente Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 This and other chronicles of similar nature have become a common sight in the past few months. I have the impression that this all started with MQA, and the press's inability to convince the consumer that the new technology is the right thing for us. Audio without numbers = MQA The once influential voice of the poor old professional audio critic with the 6 figure high-end system, whose taste-driven subjectivist approach was once an trend setting instrument, no longer seems to heard. And that hurts... As in that old song "stars they come and go...". But it's not just egos being hurt here. The whole industry should see this as a wake up call. Audiophiles of the world unite. crenca 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
adamdea Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Allan F said: Has it ever occurred to you to post something of substance instead of the incomprehensible drivel that defines you? Obviously I get the playground-insult tone, but I have no idea what you are saying. Perhaps it would be best to go back to your contribution of substance- the thing about counting, banking and science? You are not a sound quality measurement device Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 8 hours ago, Ralf11 said: BTW, birds have very different brain organization than mammals... in mammals the neostriatum is a thin protective membrane, but in birds it is very elaborate, perhaps like a cortex... Yes, the name is applied to very different structures in birds and mammals but, in the latter, it is part of the deep nuclei (basal ganglia) of the cerebrum and neither a protective membrane nor a cortex. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
marce Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 16 hours ago, Albrecht said: I haven't seen any evidence that ML has banned people that for an opposing viewpoint. I have seen evidence that he's banned people for being rude & disrespectful. Open your eyes then... Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 6 hours ago, semente said: This and other chronicles of similar nature have become a common sight in the past few months. I have the impression that this all started with MQA, and the press's inability to convince the consumer that the new technology is the right thing for us. Audio without numbers = MQA The once influential voice of the poor old professional audio critic with the 6 figure high-end system, whose taste-driven subjectivist approach was once an trend setting instrument, no longer seems to heard. Radical subjectivism did not start with MQA, as it has essentially been the culture since "High Fidelity" died around 1980 or so. Buuuttttt, I think 3 things have converged in the last 5 years or so that has caused a bit of a churn. First, consumer oriented forums such as this one has allowed non-radical subjectivist information - an opposing view. Second, the younger value oriented "personal audio" guy/gal has become a real demographic and $market$ force. Third, MQA pushed radical subjectivism to the breaking point, and put the spotlight on confidence game underneath the "old guard" like perhaps nothing before... sullis02, semente and mrvco 2 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Alcap Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 As a relative newbie here I’m must admit I’m confused by this rivalry and sometime bitterness that seems to pop up here occasionally regarding audio stream.com. Maybe someone could explain what is going on here and why the letters MQA seem to stir up so much emotion. Link to comment
crenca Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Alcap said: As a relative newbie here I’m must admit I’m confused by this rivalry and sometime bitterness that seems to pop up here occasionally regarding audio stream.com. Maybe someone could explain what is going on here and why the letters MQA seem to stir up so much emotion. MQA has encapsulated, if you will, in one place/product/encoding so much of the "voodoo" side of Audiophiledom it is kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back. To begin your journey of exploration and understanding, see: Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post miguelito Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 21 hours ago, christopher3393 said: This little broadside just popped up on Audiostream: https://www.audiostream.com/content/audio-without-numbers I'd love to see intelligent critical responses rather than angry venting or ridicule. My opinion: Objectivist are right: Everything can be measured - However, what to measure is a different issue: In many cases we don't know. Subjectivists are right: It does matter ultimately what you hear - in lieu of a lack of complete information, at the end of the day I can in principle short circuit all that just by listening. And they are "measuring", listening is the subjectivists data. The rub here is reproducibility and predictability: although subjectivists short circuit the lack of information by listening, they are subject to all sorts of environmental issues. For example comparing two speakers at two different times in two different rooms... My personal take is that I am an objectivist - everything can be measured - with an understanding that I have incomplete data - what to measure? - so I rely on subjective evaluation to some extent. I think most people actually operate this way regardless of their forum opinions. PS: On the article itself my opinion is I wasted a few minutes reading pointless drivel. jaaptina, Bill Brown, mrvco and 1 other 2 2 NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 25 minutes ago, Alcap said: As a relative newbie here I’m must admit I’m confused by this rivalry and sometime bitterness that seems to pop up here occasionally regarding audio stream.com. Maybe someone could explain what is going on here and why the letters MQA seem to stir up so much emotion. MQA is seen by many here as a closed format attempt to control the production and distribution of music, ultimately at the expemse of the consumer. The initial response of the professional audio press was to glorify the possibly dubious technical and SQ claims of MQA as a revolutionary panacea for SQ and the world of hi-end audio. Pretty much no actual analysis or evaluation of the claims. Audiostream: the editor, Michael Lavorgna, got into some heated exchanges here. Not all of the heat came from him. But it ended when he used the site private messaging service to launch profanities at one of the members. So Chris banned him. He seems to many members here to represent an elitist audio press whose members (some here think) believe they should be the tastemakers in the audio world and that all of us `’regular people`’ should accept what they say fairly uncritically - because they are professionals - and we aren’t. ML has since gone out of his way to use his platform to disparage audio forums in general, posters at forums, and this forum - and it’s editor - in particular. mrvco and Ajax 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 2 hours ago, marce said: Open your eyes then... LOL, Sure, yeah, after you open you mind.... You're the one making the claim, - produce the evidence. Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 58 minutes ago, crenca said: Radical subjectivism did not start with MQA, as it has essentially been the culture since "High Fidelity" died around 1980 or so. Buuuttttt, I think 3 things have converged in the last 5 years or so that has caused a bit of a churn. First, consumer oriented forums such as this one has allowed non-radical subjectivist information - an opposing view. Second, the younger value oriented "personal audio" guy/gal has become a real demographic and $market$ force. Third, MQA pushed radical subjectivism to the breaking point, and put the spotlight on confidence game underneath the "old guard" like perhaps nothing before... "Radical Subjectivism" that is a pretty good Trump-like troll. How about good science? There is NO SUCH THING AS OBJECTIVISM "oriented "personal audio" guy/gal has become a real demographic and $market$ force" LOL, there are no audio manufacturers in either the lo-fi consumer end, nor in the high-end that are making any money out of audio, and there's certainly no "market" Link to comment
firedog Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, Albrecht said: LOL, there are no audio manufacturers in either the lo-fi consumer end, nor in the high-end that are making any money out of audio, and there's certainly no "market" That’s clearly an untrue statement. Please show us proof NO audio maker is profitable. Many say they are, and are expanding production. Some of them even post at this forum. mrvco 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 minute ago, firedog said: That’s clearly an untrue statement. Please show us proof NO audio maker is profitable. Many say they are, and are expanding production. Some of them even post at this forum. Nothing in that post made any sense at all mrvco and daverich4 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 minute ago, firedog said: That’s clearly an untrue statement. Please show us proof NO audio maker is profitable. Many say they are, and are expanding production. Some of them even post at this forum. Go to CES, or take a look at the vendor list. Oppo is shutting down. Look at all of the consumer manufacturers shifting their business to other areas, and the high end manufacturers quitting.... It is a market that is dead or dying. Yes, - I should've said SIGNIFICANT: but was responding to the cray. Link to comment
Priaptor Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Just now, Albrecht said: Go to CES, or take a look at the vendor list. Oppo is shutting down. Look at all of the consumer manufacturers shifting their business to other areas, and the high end manufacturers quitting.... It is a market that is dead or dying. Yes, - I should've said SIGNIFICANT: but was responding to the cray. First, CES has become a basic graveyard for high end audio and should not be used as a metric for the health of the high end audio community. I have been hearing the death of high end audio for years and it just keeps on going. Yeah, there are winners and there are losers BUT make no mistake plenty of them are making money and some are making huge amounts of money despite your claims to the contrary. Oppo shutting down has no relevance to the discussion. It isn't worth it for them, period. In fact, more Oppos were sold to video than audio enthusiasts so are you suggesting video and makers of video like Sony/Samsung/LG/ETC are going out of business because Oppo is shutting down?? mrvco 1 Link to comment
marce Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 25 minutes ago, Albrecht said: LOL, Sure, yeah, after you open you mind.... You're the one making the claim, - produce the evidence. I have seen many banned not for being rude but for not following his idea of reality, if you disagree you get banned simple. Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, Priaptor said: First, CES has become a basic graveyard for high end audio and should not be used as a metric for the health of the high end audio community. I have been hearing the death of high end audio for years and it just keeps on going. Yeah, there are winners and there are losers BUT make no mistake plenty of them are making money and some are making huge amounts of money despite your claims to the contrary. Oppo shutting down has no relevance to the discussion. It isn't worth it for them, period. In fact, more Oppos were sold to video than audio enthusiasts so are you suggesting video and makers of video like Sony/Samsung/LG/ETC are going out of business because Oppo is shutting down?? Start naming companies. This is very important to the anti-audiophile trolls to sell their agendae of all these predatory companies that are bamboozling consumers with fraudulent products that are no different than consumer audio. They drive the Lamborghinis LOL! It's funny, as many of these "bits are bits" flatearthers are the same people that defend the Koch-Criminal-Capitalist in other areas. "Sony/Samsung/LG/ETC are going out of business because Oppo is shutting down??"" what a wasted sentence, - did you think before you typed it. I said nothing even remotely like that. I used OPPO as an example, - not as a cause. Teresa and look&listen 2 Link to comment
crenca Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Just now, marce said: I have seen many banned not for being rude but for not following his idea of reality, if you disagree you get banned simple. I got on ML's bad side when I disagreed with an academic he was trumpiting. She had published a paper that argued a marxist understanding of high fidelity - it was a capitalist/cultural artifact and not real. Soon afterword he banned me when he published a commercial - a video by a cable company, of a doctor explaining how the companies power cables had enabled his imaging equipment to see things that it had not been able to before. I explained that medical doctors don't (normally) have any engineering insight, and that they as individuals they are often $payed$ to lend their air of authority to all sorts of dubious products. ML is a warrior for radical subjectivism fer sur... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, marce said: I have seen many banned not for being rude but for not following his idea of reality, if you disagree you get banned simple. " if you disagree you get banned simple." I have not seen any evidence of that. So, - until some evidence is produced, - there is really nothing more to say about it. But I understand that those who "don't like" ML will choose to continue nonetheless, - and believe something that is unsubstantiated. I have asked for some sort of evidence, and no one has yet to produce it. What people have told me to do was for me to do the work and go find the evidence on my own: asking me to prove a negative. Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, Albrecht said: It's funny, as many of these "bits are bits" flatearthers are the same people that defend the Koch-Criminal-Capitalist in other areas. I want some of whatever your smoking! Nordkapp, mrvco and Ralf11 1 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Mayfair Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 hour ago, miguelito said: My opinion: Objectivist are right: Everything can be measured - However, what to measure is a different issue: In many cases we don't know. Subjectivists are right: It does matter ultimately what you hear - in lieu of a lack of complete information, at the end of the day I can in principle short circuit all that just by listening. And they are "measuring", listening is the subjectivists data. The rub here is reproducibility and predictability: although subjectivists short circuit the lack of information by listening, they are subject to all sorts of environmental issues. For example comparing two speakers at two different times in two different rooms... My personal take is that I am an objectivist - everything can be measured - with an understanding that I have incomplete data - what to measure? - so I rely on subjective evaluation to some extent. I think most people actually operate this way regardless of their forum opinions. PS: On the article itself my opinion is I wasted a few minutes reading pointless drivel. I think the inherent problem with subjectivity is the same as the inherent problem with "rules of thumb". No two people have exactly the same-sized thumb. On subjectivity vs. objectivity, I think Galileo still has the best quote: "Eppur si muove" Link to comment
Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Just now, crenca said: I want some of whatever your smoking! just reason my friend. Lots of places where you can learn you some.... look&listen 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Albrecht Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 Just now, Mayfair said: I think the inherent problem with subjectivity is the same as the inherent problem with "rules of thumb". No two people have exactly the same-sized thumb. On subjectivity vs. objectivity, I think Galileo still has the best quote: "Eppur si muove" The "problem" is when "subjectivity" is "sold" & straw-manned into something bad, - when often, - it is the application of the scientific method. Of course, pseudo science is very popular, and very popular here. Summit, Teresa and look&listen 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post miguelito Posted April 5, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 5, 2018 38 minutes ago, Mayfair said: I think the inherent problem with subjectivity is the same as the inherent problem with "rules of thumb". No two people have exactly the same-sized thumb. On subjectivity vs. objectivity, I think Galileo still has the best quote: "Eppur si muove" Yes, but the fact remains that we don't have complete information. So one for example might derive some conclusions from "subjective evaluations" that one can corroborate or refute over time and subsequent subjective evaluations. For example, I have a pretty good idea what the sound signature of my AvantGarde speakers is since I have now used them in many places (three apartments at this point). I think this gives me an "objective" understanding of their sound (and in my experience other AG speakers's sound) without having measured them. I have also learned that although my Ongaku amp measures horribly, paired with appropriate speakers it is actually a very low noise and sweet sounding device. Again no real measurement but what I would call experimental discovery. Finally, I will mention the topic of MQA (yes!). People can have all sorts of opinions on it's DRM features or restrictions on decoding mechanisms without ever experiencing MQA sound. That is totally fine - it is objective. I have listened to a lot of MQA and have developed my opinions on its sound (I've been clear elsewhere). This I think is pretty objective as well in the sense it is reproducible. My point is objective is in my opinion measurable - but there's also experimentally objective which I don't have anything like numbers behind but are the result of long comparisons and forming an opinion. I don't regard that as entirely subjective. Mayfair, Bill Brown and Albrecht 2 1 NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
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