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Superdad

EtherREGEN: We are getting much closer!!

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24 minutes ago, Superdad said:

a) UpTone policy is to never take customer money for orders without quoting a firm date of shipment (That also holds true for existing products, including our popular, 25 per-month, hand-built JS-2; It boggles my mind that some firms take money for products which don't get delivered for months or even years!)

A clear sign of credible company - should be a top purchasing decision above all others.

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3 minutes ago, elan120 said:

A clear sign of credible company - should be a top purchasing decision above all others.

 

Thanks.  Heck, I don't even accept Net 30 payment terms offered by my vendors.  I pay for everything upfront.  So I never worry about owing money to anyone.  

Plus it makes my accounting MUCH easier; I put all vendor purchase on a high-limit credit card (which I pay back in full each month) and earn 1% back--which goes towards an annual vacation with my wife. :D

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14 hours ago, Superdad said:

And the pre-production boards are on order.

 

 

How many ?

Will you ever sell them ?

 

I understand the current draw from the SFP can vary quite a lot depending on manufacturer chosen. Why ?

 

How much does the quality of the SFP varying or matter ?

I think prices of SFP can vary a lot. 

Does it justifies to make your own SFP ?

 

How much does the network activity affect the current draw, and in general should one expect any benefit having a separate network for audio ?

(Can be obtained by firewall SW like ipfire)

 

If I can afford, should I use 10Gb switch upfront in my network, as I should expect these to have better clocks, and hence less “bad” footprint transferred to the EtherRegen ?

 

And, will we see any new produkt this year ?

 

Or maybe I should ask, where in the chain do you see best potential for an improvement these days ? (DAC, Converters, or...?)

 

 

 

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I was looking forward to the etherREGEN to use with all my Ethernet lines but particularly for my Sonore optical Signature Rendu SE. the intent would be to use the etherREGEN optical out directly to the optical input on the rendu. You have stated that you believe this output would be as clean as the copper output. I know many here keep talking about using your lps1.2 to power the switch but that adds expense that I don’t understand why I need. Doesn’t the switch clean up most everything coming into it? Won’t the (I’m assuming) the included SMPT power be similar or the same?

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Can the ability to eliminate phase-noise fingerprints also provide benefit at the point where USB enters a DAC?  I’m thinking about the clocks inside some of these music servers and renderers.  Would their phase-noise get fingerprinted onto the USB signal?  Music servers sound different, even with an ISO REGEN in use.  Might that be part of the reason why?

 

I have a feeling the EtherRegen might actually make server differences easier to hear, as it will reduce the harm all our network gadgets cause and thus give us clearer insight into the server.  I could be wrong though.  Can’t wait to find out!


Digital:  Innuos Zenith Std Mk2 > Shunyata Alpha USB > Chord Hugo M-Scaler > Shunyata Alpha S/PDIF > Chord Hugo TT2 

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali power conditioner, Shunyata Alpha power cords, Shunyata Anaconda interconnect, MIT Oracle speaker cables, GIK bass traps

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27 minutes ago, lxgreen said:

I know many here keep talking about using your lps1.2 to power the switch but that adds expense that I don’t understand why I need. Doesn’t the switch clean up most everything coming into it? Won’t the (I’m assuming) the included SMPS power be similar or the same?

 

The truth is we do not yet know how much or how little an impact an upgraded power supply will make to the EtherREGEN.  As explained previously, the power networks inside the EtherREGN (twelve LT3042/45 regulators and a lot of careful chosen supporting parts) are extensive and expensive.  So we are quite confident that the EtherREGEN with just its supplied UpTone-branded/ground-shunted SMPS is going to deliver world-class performance.  

 

But you understand that this forum is filled with lots of obsessed people who enjoy tweaking everything they can with fancy power supplies. x-D

Our UltraCap LPS-1.2 is one such model (a technical tour de force in its own right)--and it happens to be in a case that matches that of the EtherREGEN.  Since there are close to 1,500 LPS-1.2s in the field, it is natural that folks (so many UpTone fanboys we are grateful for :)) are asking about mating them.

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32 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

Can the ability to eliminate phase-noise fingerprints also provide benefit at the point where USB enters a DAC?  I’m thinking about the clocks inside some of these music servers and renderers.  Would their phase-noise get fingerprinted onto the USB signal?  Music servers sound different, even with an ISO REGEN in use.  Might that be part of the reason why?

 

Absolutely!  You are spot on.  And that's why years ago we chose to put a Crystek CCHD-575 in the what became the ISO REGEN.  One of the first things we did when we went to enhance the original 2014/'15 USB REGEN was to prototype two identical über-REGEN boards (enhanced power networks and other things)--identical in every way except for the clocks.  The purpose of the exercise at the time was to determine if the expense of a custom clock was worth it. I put them each in my system and it took all of 30 seconds to know.

(This was middle of 2015, and I think only a few people were tweaking this way: Some fellow in Europe had written to me about having modded his USB REGEN with the $450 NewClassD NeutronStar clock.)  After this test we strongly encouraged Sonore to try out the Crystek 575 in the microRendu--and thus was born their V1.4 upgrade and then the ultraRendu.

 

32 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I have a feeling the EtherRegen might actually make server differences easier to hear, as it will reduce the harm all our network gadgets cause and thus give us clearer insight into the server.  I could be wrong though.  Can’t wait to find out!

 

We too are really curious as to if the EtherREGEN will make server side differences more or less audible.  The goal is to make upstream stuff matter less.  I'm sure you all gentlemen will tell us if that or the opposite is the case.  9_9

 

Believe me, we are as excited and intrigued about the results as you are.  So far, only John has put an ear on the prototype--with isolation but without all the good and isolated power networks.  And then there are the very recent first raves about the SQ of the Sonore opticalModule, which is a small subset (one clock domain, no fancy differential reclocking flops) of the EtherREGEN, functioning just as a fantastic quality fiber media converter (FMC).  The glowing reports I have read make us confident. If people like what the opticalRendu does, then will likely love the "full Monty" of the EtherREGEN. x-D  Time will tell...

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On 6/3/2019 at 1:04 AM, JohnSwenson said:

If you have the RJ45 on the B side (the single jack) connected to a streamer, what you do on the A side shouldn't matter. Thus coming into the A side with optical shouldn't make any difference. If you already have an optical network connection, use the optical input. The other use is if you have a renderer with an optical input you can use the EtherRegen the other way around and connect the optical port to the renderer  and the single RJ45 to the network.

 

John S.

Can the use of a high end gaming router like this one Netgear Nighthawk Pro Gaming XR700 contribute to a better SQ when used in connection with ether regen?

I see 2 features in particular:

10 Gigabit LAN SFP+ Port

- Seven 1-Gigabit Ethernet Ports

(6 LAN + 1 WAN) Aggregate two ports when connecting to compatible switch* to get even more wired ports

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48 minutes ago, Ricardo007 said:

Can the use of a high end gaming router like this one Netgear Nighthawk Pro Gaming XR700 contribute to a better SQ when used in connection with ether regen?

I see 2 features in particular:

10 Gigabit LAN SFP+ Port

- Seven 1-Gigabit Ethernet Ports

(6 LAN + 1 WAN) Aggregate two ports when connecting to compatible switch* to get even more wired ports

I wonder quite the same. I installed a nighthawk after my ZET fiber optics modem/router, and the boost in SQ was out of this world. Truly, one of the most significant upgrades to my system ever, which I'm hard pressed to believe anything can improve one (one of my systems now is in a state of nirvana) . 

 

Can the EthernetGen make it sound even better? 


[ AERIS G2 ] => [ MC3+USB x 3 <- -REF10 ] => [ Genelec 8341 x 2 + 7360 x 2 ]

[ Switchable to  [ Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350 ]

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2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Well that is the point! :D Though of course everyone will just have to wait to find out.   

 

I too have experienced the nice boost that a decent switch can make.  This particular Cisco Catalyst 2960 WS-C2960-8TC-S -- originally about $600, now $22 used on eBay was a lovely and surprising enhancement to my system (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-Cisco-WS-C2960-8TC-S-Catalyst-2960-Series-8-1T-SFP-Port-Switch-LAN-Lite/282887525803?). Biggest bang for the buck I ever got. (thanks for the tip @lmitche!)

 

But what we are attempting with the architecture of the EtherREGEN is completely different that what is in any other Ethernet switch anywhere on the planet!  

What we are doing with--

  • active, high-speed, low-litter differential isolators,
  • coupled with 10GHz-capable ultra-low jitter differential flip-flops on both sides of the moat,
  • all fed by femto clocking (Crystek CCHD-575; with BNC jack for the total crazies who have a 10MHz reference clock to spare),
  • and all surrounded by a dozen of the lowest noise, lowest impedance integrated voltage regulators available (LT3042 & LT3045),
  • supporting both the voltage regulators and the data chips with 195 pieces of low-inductance, X7R and X5R capacitors sized and selected by their derating curves,
  • plus specially chosen Ethernet port magnetics (with 12-cores per jack),

 

--will all result in dual isolated clock/data/power domains, blockage of all external leakage currents, vast reduction in upstream phase-noise fingerprint, and utmost siginal integrity.

 

Will the above sophisticated efforts matter? (I sure hope so because John worked very hard on the design for over a year--and all the parts to this are really expensive. :/)

Let's put it this way:

If any of you currently hear any differences with any aspect of your networking gear, then just on paper the EtherREGEN should prove to be orders of magnitude better.  

Is that multi-antenna gaming router designed with any focus on the things that we believe are relevant for a quiet Ethernet switch for audio? Nope.  

 

And presently all the Ethernet switches being offered by audio companies are not even "from-scratch" designs--they are mostly just clock and power supply mods to off-the-shelf $30 units.

SOtM's sNH-10G is the sole exception, but they have already shown that it is based on a combination of the passive Ethernet transfomer/filter network of their early iSO-CAT6 and their ubiquitous sCLK-EX clock board. (The irony being that their clock board has 4 available outputs but they use only one--because it not an active-isolation switch with dual domains as we have.)  We too use a Silicon Labs clock synthesizer chip--a much newer model--yet we place ours millimeters and centimeters from the parts as opposed to at the end of a 6-inch coax cable.  And we use all 4 outputs.

 

Please excuse if I seem prematurely immodest about the EtherREGEN--especially since it is not yet in users' systems and we do prefer to let UpTone products to simply prove themselves.  Posts like this are helpful exercise for me as I approach writing the web page for the product.  I have no interest in writing empty “marketing” pitches—I’d rather talk facts and tech.  Yet I have enthusiasm and focus when replying to user questions. So when staring at a blank page I may look back at posts like this for inspiration and bits of text to copy.  :ph34r:

1145764582_flat550x550075f_u3.jpg.f8a9f30c3df8a6b561e527b7519e8b46.jpg

Sorry, I am a big fan of Tom Hanks and of his stupid David S. Pumpkins SNL character. :P

 

Thanks and good night,

--Alex C.

 

Awesome! No way I'm not kicking the tires on that baby.

 

You mentioned the BNC port. I'm one of those locos with a REF10.  Guilty as charged.

Have you settled on the default impedance?

 


[ AERIS G2 ] => [ MC3+USB x 3 <- -REF10 ] => [ Genelec 8341 x 2 + 7360 x 2 ]

[ Switchable to  [ Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350 ]

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3 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

You mentioned the BNC port. I'm one of those locos with a REF10.  Guilty as charged.

Have you settled on the default impedance?

 

Yes. 75 ohms.

With 50 ohms a limited special request option. Assuming I remember to have our board house not solder the BNC or load resistors on a few boards—to set aside and make into 50 ohm units here as needed.

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25 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I think no matter how one goes, oM, oR, or eR, one will see huge gains.

 

I agree, though I cringe when I see our simple and descriptive product names reduced to abbreviations so soon.

It's EtherREGEN! Would it have helped if we had named it some complicated cluster of letters and numbers? x-D

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19 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

I agree, though I cringe when I see our simple and descriptive product names reduced to abbreviations so soon.

It's EtherREGEN! Would it have helped if we had named it some complicated cluster of letters and numbers? x-D

 

Ah, I thought it was kind of cute. Or maybe it's the photographer in me (cameras tend to be two to three letter/number designations). Sorry 'bout that. 


SERVER CLOSET:NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK and OWC external 2.5" HD (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule>fiber (HDPLEX 100). Supra MD-06 power strip. {Office Circuit}

LIVING ROOM:Sonore opticalModule (LPS-1)>Ghent Audio JSSG Cat 6a cable>Sonore microRendu 1.4> (Sonore UltraRendu>Ghent Neotech 7N solid JSSG DC cable) {20amp dedicated circuit) Uptone USPCB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 110 {both dedicated 20amp circuit}>Chord Rumor 2>Rega RX3’s.

OFFICE:TP Link MC110 optical bridge (iFi's - different office circuits)>Naim Unitiqute V1>NACA5>KEF Ls50’ (near field post mounted - sound amazing - one of the few  joys of working from the home basement). Cables: AQ Cinnamon RJ45, Meico RJ45, basic cat6, Naim stock AC cables with Wattgate or HifiKing Plugs. 

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3 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Ah, I thought it was kind of cute. Or maybe it's the photographer in me (cameras tend to be two to three letter/number designations). Sorry 'bout that. 

 

It’s okay. I was just kidding..  But really, I think a name has to either be three letters or two syllables to avoid getting abbreviated.

Even then, for years our two syllable son Owen was just called ‘O’.  9_9

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4 hours ago, Nenon said:

Was the final (or estimated) price determined yet? Sorry if I missed a post... kind of a long thread. Thank you. 

 

Not sure if it’s final, but $600 was mentioned a few times here recently 

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It has crept upwards as the high quality parts, in multiples on each board keep adding up. But yes it is still not been specified, except to say that they take actual part price, and then add what I consider to be a low overhead/margin percentage and create the price from that.

 

These guys are both OCD about products, and customer experience/service, yet don’t apply silly “voodoo” prices, or attitudes to their products. I was perfectly happy with my microRendu until my spouse approved my Bricasti after I got a nice bonus. (Living thru 2 children’s weddings was also part of that)

 

etherRegen is coming soon. I’m starting to get excited personally.


[Home Digital] Bricasti M12 > McIntosh MC60 > Zu Druid V + Undertone (BHSE + Voce)

[Home Analog] Technics SL-1200G > K&K Audio Phono Amp (Zu DL-103/Benz Glider-SL/Denon DL-301 II)

[Office] Laptop > Kitsune R2R lvl3 > Violectric V281 > Focal Utopia Headphones (balanced)

[beach/Travel] Laptop > DragonFly Red > Ether Headphones

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For those of us in the UK, and maybe Europe, are there any plans in place for some of the early(ish) batches to find their way to Audiostore Vortexbox? 


Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, sPS-500, SOtM modified switch, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.

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2 minutes ago, Confused said:

For those of us in the UK, and maybe Europe, are there any plans in place for some of the early(ish) batches to find their way to Audiostore Vortexbox? 

 

Absolutely!  Martin at Audiostore/Vortexbox (our main dealer for Europe) already has a reservation for a nice number of EtherREGENs.

He will receive them via FedEx the same week we begin shipping to all direct orders. https://www.vortexbox.co.uk

 

And in Hong Kong, AfterDark. will be receiving a large number of units (he has been taking reservations for a while--but a month ago I invited that he stop taking deposits since that is not how UpTone rolls):

https://www.adark.co/collections/uptone-audio

 

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5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Absolutely!  Martin at Audiostore/Vortexbox (our main dealer for Europe) already has a reservation for a nice number of EtherREGENs.

He will receive them via FedEx the same week we begin shipping to all direct orders. https://www.vortexbox.co.uk

 

And in Hong Kong, AfterDark. will be receiving a large number of units (he has been taking reservations for a while--but a month ago I invited that he stop taking deposits since that is not how UpTone rolls):

https://www.adark.co/collections/uptone-audio

 

Good news!  I have had a few dealings in the past with Martin, always top class service.


Windows 10 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, SOtM sMS-200Ultra, tX-USBultra, sPS-500, SOtM modified switch, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.

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