EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Puma Cat]

26 minutes ago, incus said:

That's not what he said. He said no module. There is still a "dock." You will just have to source your own module.

That's great news, thanks for the information; I missed that, scanning too fast!  

 

I will just use the SystemOptique specified SFP Optical Transceiver I just received today. 

 

Thank you very much for the info. 

[cat6man]

On 6/2/2019 at 5:51 AM, BlueDL said:

I use an LPS-1 to power the uR in my existing set-up; this then feeds a Holo Audio Spring via a modded Singxer SU-1. I assume the same set-up would work with the uR replaced by an OR in the future.

If I decide to upgrade before considering the step to an OR, there is a good chance that UltraRendus will be available on the used market - although I acknowledge your comment about an IsoRegen being cost effective.

Also, you’ve reminded me that the optical feed from the EtherREGEN is probably going to be better implemented than the conversion within the OM, so yes, it does seem to defeat the object doing anything other than going ‘optical direct’ into an OR.

 

a while back, i had an ultraRendu feeding a usb==>aes/ebu box  (tried singxer and sotm dx-usbHD).

i had an lps-1.2 on the converter and a lps-1 on the Rendu.

then i purchased a second lps-1.2 for the ultraRendu and the improvement was large, even with a converter after the Rendu.

 

Lesson==>everything may or can matter...........we are still scratching the surface of what is going on here

[BlueDL]

1 hour ago, cat6man said:

 

a while back, i had an ultraRendu feeding a usb==>aes/ebu box  (tried singxer and sotm dx-usbHD).

i had an lps-1.2 on the converter and a lps-1 on the Rendu.

then i purchased a second lps-1.2 for the ultraRendu and the improvement was large, even with a converter after the Rendu.

 

Lesson==>everything may or can matter...........we are still scratching the surface of what is going on here

Interesting to hear that. I agree, it seems like voodoo and will continue to until science catches up.

 

From what I gather, anyone upgrading to an OR will be faced with replacing the LPS-1.2. The Sonore webpage for the OR suggests as much anyway.

The JS-2 would probably be the way to go then.

[jamesg11]

Or await the lps1.3!!

[MM]

Been thinking a lot about going for either the EtherRegen or the OpticalRendu

 

I like the products from both these companies but cost comes into it..

 

With the LPS1.2 not working on the OpticalRendu (thus requiring a new power supply) plus the cost of an OpticalModule the $$ add up.  I’m sure it’s worth it but then I only bought my Ultrarendu and LPS1.2 a year ago (and the microrendu and LPS1 the year before that)

 

On the other hand the EtherREGEN can make use of one of my old LPS1’s and in theory should do much of what the OpticalRendu does in terms of isolation (and I get to keep the LPS1.2 powering my renderer).  Only positive I can see with the OpticalRendu is that it’s supposed to be a bit more than an UltraRendu with an optical input so I would be missing out on those gains..

 

Still - it’s exciting times that we have this choice from two fine companies

 

But I will hold off making a decision until initial impressions come through on the EtherRegen - and it wouldn’t surprise me if in 6 months I end up with both when the LPS1.3 comes out!!

[JohnSwenson]

Note that the LPS-1 is iffy powering an EtherREGEN, it MAY work if you just have one connection on the A side, but we are not going to guarantee that. The LPS-1.2, when set to 12V, WILL power an EtherREGEN in any configuration.

 

John S.

[jamesg11]

No probs - I’ll continue to use the lps-1 on the isoregen, continuing to be astonished at how I always prefer the sonics with it as the last input to the dac. Getting the RME ADI-2 in a few days & I’ll see if it still holds true for that, for me.

 

Have I developed an odd form of ‘regen’ addiction ...?

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

Have I developed an odd form of ‘regen’ addiction ...?

 

That's from the little-known remix of the classic Who song: Talkin' 'bout my Regen-addiction! 

[Superdad]

Okay gang:

After many days and nights of John's painstaking--and mind-numbing--labor, along with a few last critical surprise part changes based on availability (for the better), the final layout and routing of EtherREGEN is done!!  And the pre-production boards are on order.

 

Below is the board (remember this is a 6-layer board so not everything is visible); The wide grey line that cuts across is the moat between the 'A' side and the isolated 'B' side.

365 parts total (though 300 of them are tiny, but specially chosen capacitors and resistors).  That's a lot of parts for a board that is just 100mm x 106mm.

 

Now we wait a few weeks for the boards to be produced--and hope that they work perfect or need only a few tweaks.  I am paying in advance for procurement of all the PCB parts for the first 250 unit run.  About $60K up front.  Color me excited and nervous...

 

This is no ordinary Ethernet switch!

 

 

Next up: A dear friend and industrial designer/architect is doing the CAD work for the milling and silkscreening of the casework.  We'll be collaborating to get all the openings and labels just right so that I can get the enclosures on order shortly.

[elan120]

16 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Okay gang:

After many days and nights of John's painstaking--and mind-numbing--labor, along with a few last critical surprise part changes based on availability (for the better), the final layout and routing of EtherREGEN is done!!  And the pre-production boards are on order.

 

Below is the board (remember this is a 6-layer board so not everything is visible); The wide grey line that cuts across is the moat between the 'A' side and the isolated 'B' side.

365 parts total (though 300 of them are tiny, but specially chosen capacitors and resistors).  That's a lot of parts for a board that is just 100mm x 106mm.

 

Now we wait a few weeks for the boards to be produced--and hope that they work perfect or need only a few tweaks.  I am paying in advance for procurement of all the PCB parts for the first 250 unit run.  About $60K up front.  Color me excited and nervous...

 

This is no ordinary Ethernet switch!

 

 

Next up: A dear friend and industrial designer/architect is doing the CAD work for the milling and silkscreening of the casework.  We'll be collaborating to get all the openings and labels just right so that I can get the enclosures on order shortly.

Congradulation Alex, this is indeed an exciting milestone.

[LowMidHigh]

7 hours ago, Superdad said:

Okay gang:

After many days and nights of John's painstaking--and mind-numbing--labor, along with a few last critical surprise part changes based on availability (for the better), the final layout and routing of EtherREGEN is done!!  And the pre-production boards are on order.

 

Below is the board (remember this is a 6-layer board so not everything is visible); The wide grey line that cuts across is the moat between the 'A' side and the isolated 'B' side.

365 parts total (though 300 of them are tiny, but specially chosen capacitors and resistors).  That's a lot of parts for a board that is just 100mm x 106mm.

 

Now we wait a few weeks for the boards to be produced--and hope that they work perfect or need only a few tweaks.  I am paying in advance for procurement of all the PCB parts for the first 250 unit run.  About $60K up front.  Color me excited and nervous...

 

This is no ordinary Ethernet switch!

 

 

Next up: A dear friend and industrial designer/architect is doing the CAD work for the milling and silkscreening of the casework.  We'll be collaborating to get all the openings and labels just right so that I can get the enclosures on order shortly.

 

We'll done to you both! I'm sure many here are biting at the chomp. 

 

Should you sell out the first batch, how long before you restock? 

[soares]

Congratulations and tks for sharing the update!!!

Cheers,

Jorge,

 

[Albrecht]

12 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

That's from the little-known remix of the classic Who song: Talkin' 'bout my Regen-addiction! 

SOME-body has been working WAAAAY- too hard in the San Joaquin summer heat...........

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

Should you sell out the first batch, how long before you restock? 

 

Even if we pre-sell out of the first run of 250 (quite possible since our handful of dealers have in total already reserved about 75 units), I do not think there would be much more than a 2-week gap come delivery time. Here is why:

a) UpTone policy is to never take customer money for orders without quoting a firm date of shipment (That also holds true for existing products, including our popular, 25 per-month, hand-built JS-2; It boggles my mind that some firms take money for products which don't get delivered for months or even years!)

b) We will begin accepting orders as soon as both the cases and production circuit boards are on order with known incoming delivery dates. (We will inform of the date/time everyone here and everyone on our mailing list--which you are if you EVER bought something from us, had some e-mail correspondence with me, or signed up for our "newsletter" on our home page.)

c) If during the first hours/days/weeks of first open order period we get close to reaching 175 units sold (remember, we are setting aside 75 of the 250 unit run for the dealers), then I will of course place production orders for more boards and cases right away.  So depending upon dates of vendor purchase and delivery, the second run of EtherREGENs would, in the end, could be delivered to customers just a couple weeks after the first batch.  

 

The above all assumes I don't screw up, and assumes no critical silicone chip availability shortages.  Having done this dance a few times before (REGENs, UltraCaps, etc.), I am not sweating too much just yet. 

It's things like writing the User Guide and the product web page that I dread.  Where is that Marketing Assistant who thinks and writes like I do--only better and faster? 

 

Good times ahead! (As long as the pre-production boards don't have any nasty surprises)

 

2 hours ago, alecm said:

What are the requirements for external psu? 

Amps, volts?

 

7~12 +VDC.  We are not quoting exact amperage requirements until we have and test the final pre-production boards--with various ports and speeds active.  As mentioned previously, we have carefully estimated and budgeted the current draw through all 13 of the regulators and are confident that the 1.1A UltraCap LPS-1.2 set to 12V will power it easily (guessing somewhere around 800mA).  At lower voltages the unit will draw more current.

 

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

SOME-body has been working WAAAAY- too hard in the San Joaquin summer heat...........

 

Nah, it's just that our youngest child is graduating from high-school this Friday--and I'm a bit giddy about getting closer to being "empty nesters."  

[elan120]

24 minutes ago, Superdad said:

a) UpTone policy is to never take customer money for orders without quoting a firm date of shipment (That also holds true for existing products, including our popular, 25 per-month, hand-built JS-2; It boggles my mind that some firms take money for products which don't get delivered for months or even years!)

A clear sign of credible company - should be a top purchasing decision above all others.

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, elan120 said:

A clear sign of credible company - should be a top purchasing decision above all others.

 

Thanks.  Heck, I don't even accept Net 30 payment terms offered by my vendors.  I pay for everything upfront.  So I never worry about owing money to anyone.  

Plus it makes my accounting MUCH easier; I put all vendor purchase on a high-limit credit card (which I pay back in full each month) and earn 1% back--which goes towards an annual vacation with my wife. 

[R1200CL]

14 hours ago, Superdad said:

And the pre-production boards are on order.

 

 

How many ?

Will you ever sell them ?

 

I understand the current draw from the SFP can vary quite a lot depending on manufacturer chosen. Why ?

 

How much does the quality of the SFP varying or matter ?

I think prices of SFP can vary a lot. 

Does it justifies to make your own SFP ?

 

How much does the network activity affect the current draw, and in general should one expect any benefit having a separate network for audio ?

(Can be obtained by firewall SW like ipfire)

 

If I can afford, should I use 10Gb switch upfront in my network, as I should expect these to have better clocks, and hence less “bad” footprint transferred to the EtherRegen ?

 

And, will we see any new produkt this year ?

 

Or maybe I should ask, where in the chain do you see best potential for an improvement these days ? (DAC, Converters, or...?)

 

 

 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

How many ?

Sorry, that is our business, not yours. 

 

Quote

Will you ever sell them ?

No, we never sell pre-production units.  That would be unethical.

 

Quote

I understand the current draw from the SFP can vary quite a lot depending on manufacturer chosen.

I am not aware of the variations in current draw of SFP modules.

 

Quote

How much does the quality of the SFP varying or matter ?

Might be something you wish to ask Sonore.  The EtherREGEN has one optical port and 5 copper ports.  The optical port is for convenience and due to our highly isolated, dual-clock-domain design, performance of final output--on ether side of the moat--should be the same with copper or optical.

 

Quote

I think prices of SFP can vary a lot.

Does it justifies to make your own SFP ?

Yes we do see all sorts of prices for SFP modules, but that is not our business and people are free to purchase whatever compatible module they wish.  I have not decided if we will even offer--for convenience--ordering of a modest priced SFP to go with the EtherREGEN.  Most all Ethernet switches with SPF cage are not sold with modules.

And I can not think of a reason why UpTone would ever consider manufacturing our own SFP.

 

Quote

How much does the network activity affect the current draw, and in general should one expect any benefit having a separate network for audio ?

I think it is mostly a matter of how many Gigabit speed devices are attached to the ports, though it is possbile that Gigabit-negotiated but idle devices will generate a bit less current draw.  We will be running some more tests.  Still, we are talking differences of a just a few hundredths of an amp (tens of mA), so no reason to obsess over it.

 

Quote

If I can afford, should I use 10Gb switch upfront in my network, as I should expect these to have better clocks, and hence less “bad” footprint transferred to the EtherRegen ?

I don't think the quality of the upstream switch will matter much if at all.  The fully active isolation and ultra-low-jitter differential reclocking flip-flops (on both sides of the moat) will do an extraordinary job of eliminating prior phase-noise fingerprints.  That's very much the goal of the EtherREGEN's design.  Our method is far more effective than putting multiple switches in series (as advocated by some others with very expensive switches).

 

Quote

And, will we see any new produkt this year ?

John and I have several other products in concurrent development.  None that we are ready to speak about.

 

Quote

Or maybe I should ask, where in the chain do you see best potential for an improvement these days ? (DAC, Converters, or...?)

Wow, that's a big question!   Audio sound quality can be advanced in many ways.  Some technical innovations that can be thought of are not always practical for salable products.  There is a balance to be found between degrees of all-in-one integration versus separates, and between new interfaces and improving on the ubiquitous common standards.

One thing you can be certain of:

Be it a power supply, a USB or Ethernet device, or an ambitious DAC, UpTone will never produce any "me-too" products. I only have a taste for unique and radical designs, and John's brain and talent with this stuff is vast enough to keep us developing exciting components well into our retirement years. 

 

[lxgreen]

I was looking forward to the etherREGEN to use with all my Ethernet lines but particularly for my Sonore optical Signature Rendu SE. the intent would be to use the etherREGEN optical out directly to the optical input on the rendu. You have stated that you believe this output would be as clean as the copper output. I know many here keep talking about using your lps1.2 to power the switch but that adds expense that I don’t understand why I need. Doesn’t the switch clean up most everything coming into it? Won’t the (I’m assuming) the included SMPT power be similar or the same?

[kennyb123]

Can the ability to eliminate phase-noise fingerprints also provide benefit at the point where USB enters a DAC?  I’m thinking about the clocks inside some of these music servers and renderers.  Would their phase-noise get fingerprinted onto the USB signal?  Music servers sound different, even with an ISO REGEN in use.  Might that be part of the reason why?

 

I have a feeling the EtherRegen might actually make server differences easier to hear, as it will reduce the harm all our network gadgets cause and thus give us clearer insight into the server.  I could be wrong though.  Can’t wait to find out!

[Superdad]

27 minutes ago, lxgreen said:

I know many here keep talking about using your lps1.2 to power the switch but that adds expense that I don’t understand why I need. Doesn’t the switch clean up most everything coming into it? Won’t the (I’m assuming) the included SMPS power be similar or the same?

 

The truth is we do not yet know how much or how little an impact an upgraded power supply will make to the EtherREGEN.  As explained previously, the power networks inside the EtherREGN (twelve LT3042/45 regulators and a lot of careful chosen supporting parts) are extensive and expensive.  So we are quite confident that the EtherREGEN with just its supplied UpTone-branded/ground-shunted SMPS is going to deliver world-class performance.  

 

But you understand that this forum is filled with lots of obsessed people who enjoy tweaking everything they can with fancy power supplies. 

Our UltraCap LPS-1.2 is one such model (a technical tour de force in its own right)--and it happens to be in a case that matches that of the EtherREGEN.  Since there are close to 1,500 LPS-1.2s in the field, it is natural that folks (so many UpTone fanboys we are grateful for ) are asking about mating them.

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

Can the ability to eliminate phase-noise fingerprints also provide benefit at the point where USB enters a DAC?  I’m thinking about the clocks inside some of these music servers and renderers.  Would their phase-noise get fingerprinted onto the USB signal?  Music servers sound different, even with an ISO REGEN in use.  Might that be part of the reason why?

 

Absolutely!  You are spot on.  And that's why years ago we chose to put a Crystek CCHD-575 in the what became the ISO REGEN.  One of the first things we did when we went to enhance the original 2014/'15 USB REGEN was to prototype two identical über-REGEN boards (enhanced power networks and other things)--identical in every way except for the clocks.  The purpose of the exercise at the time was to determine if the expense of a custom clock was worth it. I put them each in my system and it took all of 30 seconds to know.

(This was middle of 2015, and I think only a few people were tweaking this way: Some fellow in Europe had written to me about having modded his USB REGEN with the $450 NewClassD NeutronStar clock.)  After this test we strongly encouraged Sonore to try out the Crystek 575 in the microRendu--and thus was born their V1.4 upgrade and then the ultraRendu.

 

32 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I have a feeling the EtherRegen might actually make server differences easier to hear, as it will reduce the harm all our network gadgets cause and thus give us clearer insight into the server.  I could be wrong though.  Can’t wait to find out!

 

We too are really curious as to if the EtherREGEN will make server side differences more or less audible.  The goal is to make upstream stuff matter less.  I'm sure you all gentlemen will tell us if that or the opposite is the case.  

 

Believe me, we are as excited and intrigued about the results as you are.  So far, only John has put an ear on the prototype--with isolation but without all the good and isolated power networks.  And then there are the very recent first raves about the SQ of the Sonore opticalModule, which is a small subset (one clock domain, no fancy differential reclocking flops) of the EtherREGEN, functioning just as a fantastic quality fiber media converter (FMC).  The glowing reports I have read make us confident. If people like what the opticalRendu does, then will likely love the "full Monty" of the EtherREGEN.   Time will tell...

[Ricardo007]

On 6/3/2019 at 1:04 AM, JohnSwenson said:

If you have the RJ45 on the B side (the single jack) connected to a streamer, what you do on the A side shouldn't matter. Thus coming into the A side with optical shouldn't make any difference. If you already have an optical network connection, use the optical input. The other use is if you have a renderer with an optical input you can use the EtherRegen the other way around and connect the optical port to the renderer  and the single RJ45 to the network.

 

John S.

Can the use of a high end gaming router like this one Netgear Nighthawk Pro Gaming XR700 contribute to a better SQ when used in connection with ether regen?

I see 2 features in particular:

- 10 Gigabit LAN SFP+ Port

- Seven 1-Gigabit Ethernet Ports

(6 LAN + 1 WAN) Aggregate two ports when connecting to compatible switch* to get even more wired ports

[LowMidHigh]

48 minutes ago, Ricardo007 said:

Can the use of a high end gaming router like this one Netgear Nighthawk Pro Gaming XR700 contribute to a better SQ when used in connection with ether regen?

I see 2 features in particular:

- 10 Gigabit LAN SFP+ Port

- Seven 1-Gigabit Ethernet Ports

(6 LAN + 1 WAN) Aggregate two ports when connecting to compatible switch* to get even more wired ports

I wonder quite the same. I installed a nighthawk after my ZET fiber optics modem/router, and the boost in SQ was out of this world. Truly, one of the most significant upgrades to my system ever, which I'm hard pressed to believe anything can improve one (one of my systems now is in a state of nirvana) . 

 

Can the EthernetGen make it sound even better?