EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[greenleo]

8 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Infamous? Are you sure?

Infamous = known for bad quality....Did you you mean 'renown' or or 'well-known'?

I mean infamous for "to wait for the shipment forever".  Probably well-known is a better wording but this word sounds too positive to me.

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

And the only way to cross that moat is still to use the only one 100mhz RJ45 port ?

 

Then if one are an opticalRendu user, use that 5th RJ45 as input and the SFP as output.

 

Should have exactly same effect as going the other way (fiber in), or use one of the 4 other RJ45 as input.

 

All three of your statements are correct!  (Though 100Mbps not 100MHz)

[soares]

The Game of Thrones will arrive sooner!

I will wait... Courage

:-)

[motberg]

On 3/19/2019 at 8:19 AM, thyname said:

 

‘Like what?

https://jcat.eu/product/m12-switch-gold/

 

😲

[thyname]

17 minutes ago, motberg said:

https://jcat.eu/product/m12-switch-gold/

 

😲

 

‘LOL! Right on!

[Bones13]

57 minutes ago, motberg said:

https://jcat.eu/product/m12-switch-gold/

 

😲

4K pound sterling, I need at least 2

[LowMidHigh]

"the M12 SWITCH GOLD conveys the full density of sound and a subtle feeling of the air. Its high-frequency range is transparent, and the mid and bass areas are clear with high S/N." 

 

Makes perfect sense. You always want to convey the full density of sound. The thicker the snake oil, the more delicious. Now, that's infamous! 

[greenleo]

Any ASer bought the M12?  it's been around for years but I find it too expensive.  This may not be the thread to discuss the M12.  Any guy will point a thread of M12 in AS for a poor soul?  

[rickca]

You know it seems the more we talk about it

It only makes it worse to live without it

But let's talk about it

Wouldn't it be nice?

 

The Beach Boys Pet Sounds

[Superdad]

Just for fun, here is a purposely fuzzy reduction of the EtherREGEN block diagram I was updating today (working on revised list of the 10 required LT3042/45 voltage regulators).  Thought I would tease you guys.  

 

When we are closer to ready and have time I'll publish a readable version so you can see the data flow and clocking domains, etc.  This one has all the part numbers so I need to make it fuzzy.  Plus it is not made pretty or fancy, it's just for our internal discussions and mark-up.

 

The only hint I'll give is that the pale horizontal line near the middle of the diagram that cuts across everything is the "moat."  Anything that sits on it are data, clock, or power isolators.

 

 

 

[thotdoc]

Superdad-I've just spent 2-days reading this.

1st-Thank you and John S for your involvement in audio. Your company, SGC and Sonore have changed the level of enjoyment in my and our musical lives. 

2nd-Your patience in moderating is amazing.

 

G

[CJH]

Is it possible for John S. to design a USB optical isolator using this technology?

CJH

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, CJH said:

Is it possible for John S. to design a USB optical isolator using this technology?

CJH

 

Optical ethernet in and usb out or what are you actually requesting ?

[CJH]

USB in > optical isolation > USB out. Using USB in to power the first optical stage and external power for the second optical stage and USB out. Let's call it IsoptoRegen.

CJH

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, CJH said:

USB in > optical isolation > USB out. Using USB in to power the first optical stage and external power for the second optical stage and USB out. Let's call it IsoptoRegen.

 

While fully addressing the technical issues of what you envision would take this EtherREGEN thread off-track, I'll point out a couple of factors, because what might sound conceptually simple is anything but :

 

a) USB is a bi-directional protocol--data goes back and forth on a single pair of wires (and no, it's not one wire one way, the other wire the other).  All digital isolator chips (regardless of their speed or technology--optical, capacitive, RF, magneto-resistive, etc.) are ONE-WAY devices for each bit (yes, they are often packaged with multiple bit-channels, but you choose which channels are going which way and that's set.  

So the only way to put a USB signal across an isolator is to process it into a format where data going upstream is not on the same line as data going downstream.  The only integrated chip capable of doing this at USB2.0 high-speed is the Silanna ICE08USB--the part we use in the ISO REGEN.  Beyond that one can accomplish this with two FPGAs and a bunch of code (as done in the Intona-brand isolator box).  [There is another, much more elegant method than either of the above, but I'm sure as heck not going to discuss it here.]

 

b) Since you brought up optical in the context of this Ethernet-oriented thread, I will assume your suggestion is in the realm of optical transmission as produced by Ethernet optical transceivers, such as what is in an SFP module..  (Of course if you simply meant simple opto-isolator chips, then see "a)" above--and BTW, opto-isolators add much more jitter than some of the better digital isolator methods such as GMR.)

Optical Ethernet SFP transceivers are interesting pieces, and there are some possibilities to use them for transmitting other than Ethernet--with remarkably low jitter (in fact I am pretty sure that's what MSB is doing with their new ProUSB modules--proprietary to their DACs--though they are making the USB side appear as a full UAC2 audio endpoint device to the computer).  

John and I recently spoke about using optical SFP transceivers in a non-conventional way to produce a fantastically well-clocked, isolated USB extender--your DAC could be miles away!--but there are issues about protocol at each end and also about clock synchronization.  Suffice it to say it would not be a simple affair--and it would not be bus-powered!

 

So you can see there are no snap-together solutions to high performance USB isolation.  Heck there weren't any for Ethernet--at least not the sort of active isolation/separated clock-domain we are going for with the EtherREGEN--so we have had to get really creative.

 

Hope I have answered your questions.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Matias]

Alex, Ayre has implemented optical isolation to their QB-9 DSD USB input, I suppose it could be implemented in an external device as well ("OpticalRegen")?

 

"The QB-9DSD also utilizes opto-couplers to provide
total electrical isolation for the connections between
your computer and music system. This minimizes
the introduction of unwanted radio-frequency
interference (RFI), generated by all computers."

 

manual page 3

https://www.ayre.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Ayre_QB9DSD_Manual.pdf

 

 

http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/ayre_qb9_dsd_1.shtml

[Superdad]

45 minutes ago, Matias said:

Alex, Ayre has implemented optical isolation to their QB-9 DSD USB input, I suppose it could be implemented in an external device as well ("OpticalRegen")?

 

Hi:

As explained many times in the past, DACs (or DDCs) with digital isolators (be they optical, RF, capacitive, GMR, etc.) must ALWAYS position them AFTER the USB input stage--on the I2S lines into the rest of the DAC.  [Please reread "a)" in my above post to understand why.]

The sole exceptions are the couple of DAC makers who are using the (now discontinued) Silanna ICE08USB chip right at the USB input--before the XMOS or other USB processor (those are the $6K Auralic Vega G2, and the @PeterSt's NOS1a G3).

 

The ISO REGEN already provides galvanic isolation--though we admit that whole Silanna>USB3.1 hub scheme is not always flawless in use (iFi with their similar iGalvanic suffers with the same connectivity support issues that we do; that's why we both have isolation defeat swtiches on our devices).  By nature the ground-dependent USB signal does not lend itself to these tricks.  

But we have ideas for the future.

 

While I know that conceptually "optical" isolation has an appeal--I mean what's more galvanically isolated than light?  But realize that there must be transceivers on both sides, the data goes in only once direction through each bit of isolation channel, and that clocking also has to move across the isolation moat.  Plus opto-isolators are not the lowest jitter for their function, so as with using any digital isolator, using a really low jitter, high-speed flip-flop afterward is mandatory for good performance.

 

Okay, no more USB isolation talk in the EtherREGEN thread! 

[PeterSt]

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

digital isolators (be they optical, RF, capacitive, GMR, etc.) must ALWAYS position them AFTER the USB input stage--on the I2S lines into the rest of the DAC.

 

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

The sole exceptions are the couple of DAC makers who are using the (now discontinued) Silanna ICE08USB chip right at the USB input--before the XMOS or other USB processor (those are the $6K Auralic Vega G2, and the @PeterSt's NOS1a G3).

 

The latter does both. 

 

Which reminds me of something ... 

[rickca]

4 hours ago, Matias said:

The QB-9DSD also utilizes opto-couplers to provide
total electrical isolation for the connections between
your computer and music system.

Funny, even the original Uptone Audio REGEN made a significant improvement to the sound of my QB-9 DSD.

[skatbelt]

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that the etherREGEN would be launched in the first quarter of this year. No signs of this yet. Alex (@Superdad), can you give some insights, planning wise?

[Bones13]

If you read this thread, they (upTone) have mentioned, on several occasions, the causes for the delays. They have been very forthright about the fact that they are developing a new approach to this item, and it has involved a bunch of research. and trials/errors, including some changes as they have worked through it.. They also have mentioned that they would not announce any dates until they have a product to pre-order. I would assume that if the current test boards they are examining work well, launch might be eminent, however, if they have issues, another round of testing will be required. That and the vagaries of the supply chain for these parts makes the estimating of time and cost for this device to be "estimates" and to be taken with a grain of salt.  Until the pre-order emails come out 😊

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, skatbelt said:

I thought I read somewhere in this thread that the etherREGEN would be launched in the first quarter of this year. No signs of this yet. Alex (@Superdad), can you give some insights, planning wise?

 

He did. And it’s Q2 now. (But you have to figure it out from the text below).

 

[jos]

Hello super-daddy, is there any news about ‘getting closer’?

[Superdad]

On 4/16/2019 at 6:15 AM, jos said:

Hello super-daddy, is there any news about ‘getting closer’?

 

Actually yes!  Our semi-final round of test boards arrived today and the end-to-end functions of the EtherREGEN are working well. Given the changes we have gone through (I won't bore with the details), this is a pretty big milestone for us. [A very welcome happy day for John and me. ]

 

Things will move more quickly from here.  Some more tests with these boards--including clocking an isolation tests, and measurement of current consumption by each chip--and then it's onto the final layout with all 15 or so voltage regulators and other bits.  So it's a fair bet that our next round of boards will be actual pre-production of the final.  

 

We are still not quoting any dates, but I'm sure in the mood to do the artwork and milling drawings for the case and feel confident enough to start ordering circuit parts for production (at least the hard-to-get/long lead time parts).  Already have stock of 500 pieces 25.0MHz Crystek CCHD-575, and I'm on the prowl for stock of the expensive Silicon Labs clock synthesizers we need.

[Bones13]

Getting serious now! Way to go guys, can I be first on the pre-pre-order list???