EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[PYP]

3 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

 

Was this "article" written on 1st April by any chance?

seems like that, doesn't it?  Physics at this level is like magic.  The interrelationship among time, mass and gravity is something folks like me have never really pondered.   Other than a vague "understanding" of relativity and that Einstein's wife did all the hard math.   

 

You have to love paragraphs like this:  "Lasers are mounted on the sides of the table. They chill the atoms or ions to near absolute zero, trapping them in place and slowing them down. Then the lasers probe the atoms or ions, beaming a nearly pure color of light on them that scientists tune to find the precise wavelength that will elicit the desired tiny shift in energy."  Easy peasy, I say.  

 

And please note that Alex did NOT deny that UpTone is working on a miniature optical clock to place inside the next-gen etherREGEN (talk about really low jitter!).  I'm just going to leave it at that because of the patents that are pending...

[R1200CL]

Optical clocks exist. They are extremely expensive. (And huge). In a future far away, we may have a clock signal delivered from a central master clock over fiber. Actually this exist already. But’s definitely not meant for audio.

 

”Within the last decade, optical atomic clocks have surpassed the best cesium clocks, which are used to realize the unit of time and frequency, in terms of accuracy and stability by about two orders of magnitude. When remote optical atomic clocks are connected by links without degradation in the clock signals, an optical clock network is formed, with distinct advantages for the dissemination of time, geodesy, astronomy and basic and applied research. Different approaches for time and frequency transfer in the microwave and optical regime, via satellites and free-space links, optical fibre links, or transportable optical atomic clocks, can be used to form a hybrid clock network that may allow a future redefinition of the unit of time based on an optical reference transition.”

 

 

[R1200CL]

16 hours ago, PYP said:

And please note that Alex did NOT deny that UpTone is working on a miniature optical clock to place inside the next-gen etherREGEN (talk about really low jitter!).  I'm just going to leave it at that because of the patents that are pending...

You can read about the research here. Extremely nice phase noise numbers.
-122dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset and -147.7dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset. 

[Account Closed]

20 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You can read about the research here. Extremely nice phase noise numbers.
-122dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset and -147.7dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset. 

Wasn't something like this used to link radio telescopes around the world to get the picture of a black hole?

[R1200CL]

I’m more interested to know how much one has to invest in order to build that OCXO described in that document. 
 

It looks cheap and easy. I most be totally wrong. Cause if not we may have found the holy grail to good SQ 😂

 

 

[Superdad]

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It looks cheap and easy.

Not at all!

 

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I most be totally wrong.

Afraid so. 

 

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Cause if not we may have found the holy grail to good SQ.

Keep searching for that grail! 

 

Just FYI, one of the very best price/performance quotes we recently received for an OCXO was this one below. Note prices in Euros, payment 100% in advance.

 

Ultra low-noise OCXO 10.000 MHz, with phase noise of:
<-114 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz
≤-145 dBc/Hz @ 10 Hz
<-158 dBc/Hz @ 100 Hz
<-160 dBc/Hz @ ≥ 1 kHz

2 samples (minimum order quantity) EUR 1029.50/piece
Lead time 14 weeks

5 pieces EUR 823.85/piece
Lead time 15 weeks

10 pieces EUR 686.55/piece
Lead time 18 weeks

100 pieces EUR 343.25/piece
500 pieces EUR 298.50/piece
Lead time TBD

===================

[R1200CL]

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

<-114 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz

Don’t we like to see closer to -120 ?

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

≤-145 dBc/Hz @ 10 Hz

Now this is a very nice number !

 

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

100 pieces EUR 343.25/piece

So you could make something (a clock) in the $900 to $1200 price range ? 
 

If external PS. And one sine out. That said dual isolated sine probably make more sense. 
Lack of components may not be an issue ?

[JohnSwenson]

27 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Don’t we like to see closer to -120 ?

Now this is a very nice number !

 

So you could make something (a clock) in the $900 to $1200 price range ? 
 

If external PS. And one sine out. That said dual isolated sine probably make more sense. 
Lack of components may not be an issue ?

My research has shown that 1HZ offset numbers have little to do with "sound".

A year ago (after I had my Phase Station) I bought a bunch of cheap used OCXOs from Ebay and tested them on the Phase Station and used them to clock an ER. What I found was very high correlation of 10Hz offset numbers to sound quality and almost no correlation of 1Hz offset.

 

Again fully sighted test, no official DBT, just one subject (Me) but it was quite strong correlation with 10Hz. This was not a barely audible effect, it was quite pronounced. I don't have time to run anything else. But this was strong enough for me to ignore 1Hz offsets and just focus on 10Hz.

 

John S.

[Mihaylov]

On 5/2/2022 at 11:19 PM, JohnSwenson said:

What I found was very high correlation of 10Hz offset numbers to sound quality and almost no correlation of 1Hz offset.

Do you have any information about the correlation of Allan Deviation with sound quality?

[JohnSwenson]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:16 PM, Mihaylov said:

Do you have any information about the correlation of Allan Deviation with sound quality?

Everything at this point seems to be going towards the only regime where stability seems to have an effect is when it is essentially measuring the same thing as 10Hz or so offset phase noise. Everything else seems to have very low correlation.

 

This seems to point towards: look at the 10Hz offset phase noise and ignore pretty much everything else. Thus lots of money spent on very good long term stability does nothing towards better sound. The problem with this is that the lowest 10Hz phase noise comes in the same thing that has good long term stability. Most of the research money has gone into the good long term stability, otherwise known as optimizing things we don't care about. Very little money has been spent on optimizing just the low offset phase noise and nothing else, the market for that is just way too small. So we wind up in a situation that the best phase noise winds up existing in devices that have been optimized for long term stability, thus cost significantly more than they should, but unless the manufacturers believe there is a significant market for this it won't happen.

 

John S.

[Mihaylov]

13 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

So we wind up in a situation that the best phase noise winds up existing in devices that have been optimized for long term stability, thus cost significantly more than they should, but unless the manufacturers believe there is a significant market for this it won't happen.

Perhaps that is why, in order to minimize the price of the clock, it is worth focusing not on ready-made OCXO, but to order from the manufacturer OCXO with the necessary parameters - the minimum values of 10 Hz offset phase noise and the initial values of other parameters. I did just that by ordering from the manufacturer Morion MV197 with top values of phase noise which cost about $ 250 (a single product!).

 

[R1200CL]

http://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv197.pdf
 

[Superdad]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

http://www.morion-us.com/catalog_pdf/mv197.pdf

 

I know the rep there at Morion USA in San Jose (it's just one guy). Morion is in Russia and tariff into the USA is 35%. 

There are more reliable and friendly OCXO factories to work with in Germany. Still, expect to pay big $$.

[R1200CL]

It looks so easy to build your own fantastic low phase noise OCXO 😀

 

”It is shown that oscillators with the excellent phase noise performance can be built using relatively simple but highly accurate linear theories and these can be implemented using a modular approach to oscillator designs, utilizing transformer coupled differential amplifiers, a three-element filter, and high-pass phase shifter designs.
Further improvements in the longer term phase noise per- formance are expected through the improved and optimized temperature stabilization of the resonator at turnover temper- ature (82 °C). Certain types of components have been found to be more effective in keeping the phase noise low.”

 

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/141563/1/08540461.pdf
 

I wonder how far 1000 member X $100 would take us to build/design an audiophile OCXO. 
Is it possible to mass produce a reasonable priced OCXO that fit our purposes ?

 

It’s attempting to just email on of these guys and ask how much money they spent. 

[Mihaylov]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Is it possible to mass produce a reasonable priced OCXO that fit our purposes ?

I believe that Morion is ready to do this and provide audiophiles around the world with such products. 

I will also pay attention to the fact that After Dark sells its top-end external clock for 3800 USD - this is essentially an OCXO and a chassis, with the same phase noise as my MV197.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

I believe that Morion is ready to do this and provide audiophiles around the world with such products

I belive most audiophiles won’t purchase from this company cause quite obvious reasons. (And practical as well). 

[George Hincapie]

@Superdad Hello. I would like to try ER in my system. My UK seller, Martin at AudioStore has no stock. When will they be available again please?

 

And are there any plans to replace your LPS supply for use with the ER? I understand supply chain issues caused the demise of the latest variant.

 

Thanks.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, George Hincapie said:

@Superdad Hello. I would like to try ER in my system. My UK seller, Martin at AudioStore has no stock. When will they be available again please?

 

And are there any plans to replace your LPS supply for use with the ER? I understand supply chain issues caused the demise of the latest variant.

Hi:

Please look to the below post for some most recent information.  The original EtherREGEN is now out-of-stock worldwide. Development of EtherREGEN Gen2 is well underway—with big investments in production parts already made so that we will not encounter shortage obstacles when we are ready to head into production, hopefully by the end of the year. 

 

As for the UltraCap LPS-1.2, too many major parts for that design remain unavailable, plus the too critically balanced bank-alternating scheme proved not to be reliable long term. So we will not be revisiting that.

 

However, we are well along (within a month or so of final beta boards) on a tripple-regulated, dual-output, fully isolated 2A/4A linear supply which we hope—based on its extraordinary performance—will quickly land at the top of the heap for many. 

For a variety of reasons (which will be explained once we start a formal pre-launch discussion thread) this new supply will be in the same beautiful size/style chassis as our ever-popular 5~7.4A JS-2, but due to build cost will be priced above it.

 

 

[Tony P]

Thank you so much for deciding that Gen2 will have Gegabit capability.  I am an audiophile, however, if am lucky enough to get one of the Gen2s I will first use in in my  video system.  My new 4K HDR smart TV receives its broadcast TV OTA from coax RF cable, but the "smart" part of it ( i.e. streaming ) comes from a 75 foot run of CAT8 Ethernet cable that runs trough all kinds of nastiness in the lower level of my house before it reach the TV.  I look forward to seeing what the Gen2 will do for my streamed content.

[kennyb123]

13 hours ago, Tony P said:

I look forward to seeing what the Gen2 will do for my streamed content.

I hope you report your findings once you are able to obtain a Gen2.  I also plan to purchase a Gen2 but it will be used in my audio system where it will replace a Gen1.  The Gen1 will then go to my video system.  Like you, I look forward to seeing what an EtherRegen will do for my streamed video content.  It’s indispensable in my audio system.

[agladstone]

I was planning on the same strategy as @kennyb123, to hopefully be able to obtain a new EtherRegen 2 and then move my EtherRegen over to my AppleTV 4K to hopefully improve my streaming quality. 
I’m curious if the new EtherRegen 2 would actually be best served for streaming 4K video because of the 1GB throughput? 
Maybe I’ll need to get two of the newer ones :) 

[kennyb123]

19 hours ago, agladstone said:

I’m curious if the new EtherRegen 2 would actually be best served for streaming 4K video because of the 1GB throughput? 
Maybe I’ll need to get two of the newer ones :) 

Keeping my fingers crossed that 100 mbps is sufficient.  What’s interesting is that my LG OLED only supports up to that rate over wired - though I’ll likely run the B side into my Nvidia Shield Pro and that supports gigabit.  I suspect though that the compressed streams will be fine over 100 mbps.

[Superdad]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:36 PM, agladstone said:

I was planning on the same strategy as @kennyb123, to hopefully be able to obtain a new EtherRegen 2 and then move my EtherRegen over to my AppleTV 4K to hopefully improve my streaming quality. 
I’m curious if the new EtherRegen 2 would actually be best served for streaming 4K video because of the 1GB throughput? 
Maybe I’ll need to get two of the newer ones :) 

 

On 2/18/2023 at 9:51 AM, kennyb123 said:

Keeping my fingers crossed that 100 mbps is sufficient.  What’s interesting is that my LG OLED only supports up to that rate over wired - though I’ll likely run the B side into my Nvidia Shield Pro and that supports gigabit.  I suspect though that the compressed streams will be fine over 100 mbps.

 

Typical web streamed hi-def and 4K video is fine with 100Mbps, but indeed full uncompressed Blu-Ray requires higher bandwidth than that.  

Although not our primary market, there are a lot of people using an EtherREGEN with their video systems and reporting visual benefits. And some of those people have expressed intense interest in an EtherREGEN with 'B' side Gigabit for their Blu-Ray and up high-end video systems. So I guess they will be happy with EtherREGEN Gen2... 

 

[audiobomber]

I'm working on a DIY LPS, and have a few questions about the ER-V2.

1. Will it have the same power requirements as the  original version?

2. Will it be supplied with the same power supply unit as the original?

3. Have you considered offering it without a PSU?

4. Available in June?

 

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, audiobomber said:

I'm working on a DIY LPS, and have a few questions about the ER-V2.

1. Will it have the same power requirements as the  original version?

2. Will it be supplied with the same power supply unit as the original?

3. Have you considered offering it without a PSU?

4. Available in June?

 

Quick answers:

1. Approximately. Same 7~12V input range. Wattage draw will be similar (won’t know exact figure until the unified board is done).

 

2. Yes, same stock PS will be included. 

3. No.  Our included AC>DC Adapter adds very little to the retail price and folks need to have something reliable to fall back on—or just to use and enjoy as the bulk of

EtherREGEN benefits can be enjoyed with just the stock supply. If you manage to get in on Gen2 unit at launch (or anytime) and really don’t want us to include another of the same power adapter you already have, then send me an email after you order.

4. Not committing yet. Waiting on receipt of the special new PHY chips we have chosen. Soon as those arrive they will be soldered onto the already designed test boards. Then things should go quickly and then I’ll be more willing to estimate actual month of production. 

Thanks for your patience. It will be worth the wait!