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EtherREGEN: The long development and active launch discussion thread.


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3 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

 

Was this "article" written on 1st April by any chance?

seems like that, doesn't it?  Physics at this level is like magic.  The interrelationship among time, mass and gravity is something folks like me have never really pondered.   Other than a vague "understanding" of relativity and that Einstein's wife did all the hard math.   

 

You have to love paragraphs like this:  "Lasers are mounted on the sides of the table. They chill the atoms or ions to near absolute zero, trapping them in place and slowing them down. Then the lasers probe the atoms or ions, beaming a nearly pure color of light on them that scientists tune to find the precise wavelength that will elicit the desired tiny shift in energy."  Easy peasy, I say.  

 

And please note that Alex did NOT deny that UpTone is working on a miniature optical clock to place inside the next-gen etherREGEN (talk about really low jitter!).  I'm just going to leave it at that because of the patents that are pending...

Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3    

Cables:  Kubala-Sosna    Power management:  Shunyata    Room:  GIK Acoustics   

 

"As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed."  Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man

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Optical clocks exist. They are extremely expensive. (And huge). In a future far away, we may have a clock signal delivered from a central master clock over fiber. Actually this exist already. But’s definitely not meant for audio.

 

Within the last decade, optical atomic clocks have surpassed the best cesium clocks, which are used to realize the unit of time and frequency, in terms of accuracy and stability by about two orders of magnitude. When remote optical atomic clocks are connected by links without degradation in the clock signals, an optical clock network is formed, with distinct advantages for the dissemination of time, geodesy, astronomy and basic and applied research. Different approaches for time and frequency transfer in the microwave and optical regime, via satellites and free-space links, optical fibre links, or transportable optical atomic clocks, can be used to form a hybrid clock network that may allow a future redefinition of the unit of time based on an optical reference transition.”

 

 

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16 hours ago, PYP said:

And please note that Alex did NOT deny that UpTone is working on a miniature optical clock to place inside the next-gen etherREGEN (talk about really low jitter!).  I'm just going to leave it at that because of the patents that are pending...

You can read about the research here. Extremely nice phase noise numbers.
-122dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset and -147.7dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset. 

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20 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You can read about the research here. Extremely nice phase noise numbers.
-122dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset and -147.7dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset. 

Wasn't something like this used to link radio telescopes around the world to get the picture of a black hole?

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I’m more interested to know how much one has to invest in order to build that OCXO described in that document. 
 

It looks cheap and easy. I most be totally wrong. Cause if not we may have found the holy grail to good SQ 😂

 

 

2567C66B-D898-4343-BA79-FCC8246C34B8.jpeg

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25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It looks cheap and easy.

Not at all!

 

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I most be totally wrong.

Afraid so. :P

 

25 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Cause if not we may have found the holy grail to good SQ.

Keep searching for that grail! B|

 

Just FYI, one of the very best price/performance quotes we recently received for an OCXO was this one below. Note prices in Euros, payment 100% in advance.

 

Ultra low-noise OCXO 10.000 MHz, with phase noise of:
<-114 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz
≤-145 dBc/Hz @ 10 Hz
<-158 dBc/Hz @ 100 Hz
<-160 dBc/Hz @ ≥ 1 kHz

2 samples (minimum order quantity) EUR 1029.50/piece
Lead time 14 weeks

5 pieces EUR 823.85/piece
Lead time 15 weeks

10 pieces EUR 686.55/piece
Lead time 18 weeks


100 pieces EUR 343.25/piece
500 pieces EUR 298.50/piece
Lead time TBD

===================

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14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

<-114 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz

Don’t we like to see closer to -120 ?

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

≤-145 dBc/Hz @ 10 Hz

Now this is a very nice number !

 

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

100 pieces EUR 343.25/piece

So you could make something (a clock) in the $900 to $1200 price range ? 
 

If external PS. And one sine out. That said dual isolated sine probably make more sense. 
Lack of components may not be an issue ?

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  • 3 months later...
On 5/2/2022 at 11:19 PM, JohnSwenson said:

What I found was very high correlation of 10Hz offset numbers to sound quality and almost no correlation of 1Hz offset.

Do you have any information about the correlation of Allan Deviation with sound quality?

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On 8/11/2022 at 12:16 PM, Mihaylov said:

Do you have any information about the correlation of Allan Deviation with sound quality?

Everything at this point seems to be going towards the only regime where stability seems to have an effect is when it is essentially measuring the same thing as 10Hz or so offset phase noise. Everything else seems to have very low correlation.

 

This seems to point towards: look at the 10Hz offset phase noise and ignore pretty much everything else. Thus lots of money spent on very good long term stability does nothing towards better sound. The problem with this is that the lowest 10Hz phase noise comes in the same thing that has good long term stability. Most of the research money has gone into the good long term stability, otherwise known as optimizing things we don't care about. Very little money has been spent on optimizing just the low offset phase noise and nothing else, the market for that is just way too small. So we wind up in a situation that the best phase noise winds up existing in devices that have been optimized for long term stability, thus cost significantly more than they should, but unless the manufacturers believe there is a significant market for this it won't happen.

 

John S.

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13 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

So we wind up in a situation that the best phase noise winds up existing in devices that have been optimized for long term stability, thus cost significantly more than they should, but unless the manufacturers believe there is a significant market for this it won't happen.

Perhaps that is why, in order to minimize the price of the clock, it is worth focusing not on ready-made OCXO, but to order from the manufacturer OCXO with the necessary parameters - the minimum values of 10 Hz offset phase noise and the initial values of other parameters. I did just that by ordering from the manufacturer Morion MV197 with top values of phase noise which cost about $ 250 (a single product!).

 

71D8C4A9-009A-4080-A8E5-6325CB33D4CC.thumb.jpeg.45704047b32a823ede6b583e3b34fe32.jpeg

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It looks so easy to build your own fantastic low phase noise OCXO 😀

 

”It is shown that oscillators with the excellent phase noise performance can be built using relatively simple but highly accurate linear theories and these can be implemented using a modular approach to oscillator designs, utilizing transformer coupled differential amplifiers, a three-element filter, and high-pass phase shifter designs.
Further improvements in the longer term phase noise per- formance are expected through the improved and optimized temperature stabilization of the resonator at turnover temper- ature (82 °C). Certain types of components have been found to be more effective in keeping the phase noise low.”

 

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/141563/1/08540461.pdf
 

I wonder how far 1000 member X $100 would take us to build/design an audiophile OCXO. 
Is it possible to mass produce a reasonable priced OCXO that fit our purposes ?

 

It’s attempting to just email on of these guys and ask how much money they spent. 

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3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Is it possible to mass produce a reasonable priced OCXO that fit our purposes ?

I believe that Morion is ready to do this and provide audiophiles around the world with such products. 

19309DB3-D64C-4051-88D9-1E427137A6E7.thumb.jpeg.bc5e26eb7e3080a9a07ce564297abc46.jpeg


I will also pay attention to the fact that After Dark sells its top-end external clock for 3800 USD - this is essentially an OCXO and a chassis, with the same phase noise as my MV197.

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