EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[HumanMedia]

Tom Petty sings about Batch 1 owners

 

Oh baby don't it feel like heaven right now
Don't it feel like somethin' from a dream
Yeah I've never known nothing quite like this
Don't it feel like tonight might never be again
We know better than to try and pretend
Baby no one could have ever told me 'bout this

 

 

Tom Petty sings about Batch 2 & 3 Orderers

 

The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you see one more card
You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
The waiting is the hardest part

 

[fpalm69]

I tried the EtherRegen with the Sonore opticalModule attached via FO to the SFP port (side A) then port B to my server (Roon Nucleus) with very good results.  Liked the SQ better then just running Ethernet straight into port A.

But, when I tried replacing the opticalModule with a TP Liink MC220L media converter it would not work.  Same FO transceivers on both ends (TP-SM311LM) and cable just the opticalModule was replaced.  Tried two different TP Link converters with same result - no connection.

 

Any one know why the TP Link would not connect?

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, fpalm69 said:

Any one know why the TP Link would not connect?

 

This may sound silly, but can you try pushing the FO module into the EtherREGEN's SFP cage just a bit harder?  During testing we have found this to be required and I think a couple of other folks here had similar issue as you and then got it to work by re-seating firmly.  Just a thought.  Beyond that I can't really think of a reason why that model TP Link FMC would not work, where your Sonore opticalModule with the same transceivers does.

[jcn3]

30 minutes ago, fpalm69 said:

I tried the EtherRegen with the Sonore opticalModule attached via FO to the SFP port (side A) then port B to my server (Roon Nucleus) with very good results.  Liked the SQ better then just running Ethernet straight into port A.

But, when I tried replacing the opticalModule with a TP Liink MC220L media converter it would not work.  Same FO transceivers on both ends (TP-SM311LM) and cable just the opticalModule was replaced.  Tried two different TP Link converters with same result - no connection.

 

Any one know why the TP Link would not connect?

 

Also, not all SFPs work with all FMCs -- compatibility is not 100%.  Has the SFP worked with the TP Link before?

 

BTW, did you try changing the switch on the back of the TP Link from Auto to Force (or vice versa)?

[so-no-mah]

Another product you're not telling us about???

[Superdad]

27 minutes ago, so-no-mah said:

Another product you're not telling us about???

Oh wow! Awesome, thanks. Will have to seek that out.  I’m a pinot fan too. 

[EVOLVIST]

Design Thinking ~ 

 

So, really, I'm asking honestly without ulterior motive, how does one even begin to design something like the EtherREGEN? 

 

Most designs, inventions, etc. come out of necessity. One old example is the guy whose mother found it difficult in old age to work a potato peeler, so he designed a better handle for the peeler. This design was then used for a lot of other products with a handle. Or, if you check out the evolution of bridges, it's quite fascinating, as we get into holding more weight with less mass. 

 

I'm just sitting here wondering what was the impetus - the necessity - behind the EtherREGEN. Was it that people claimed that there was "noise" in their Ethernet, or studies showed that it was an imperfect system that needed to be remedied? I'm thinking that if those two examples are the leading reason behind the EtherREGEN then the commercial implications could be huge for Uptone. 

 

Now, the last little bit that I wrote holds some mild sarcasm, but only very mild because I didn't hear any sonic benefits from the EtherREGEN. But that doesn't mean anything, for obviously a good number of people do. So, even with my mild nod-and-a-wink, I'm quite serious about applications outside of audio if the promise of better data correction is inherent in the EtherREGEN's design. 

 

Like the guy with the potato peeler, at first he was just wanting to help out his mother, but it became something much bigger! 

 

Still, the question of why remains. If you're willing to share (and maybe you have already), the original mindset behind this device. I would presume that there was some real-world need to be met. 

 

Of course not everything is designed or invented with a need that needs meeting. Or, at least not a practical need. Some designs/inventions are also just stumbled upon. I'm thinking about Albert Hoffman who discovered LSD by accident while trying to synthesize a delivery system for other pharmaceuticals. Or, penicillin, right? Happy accidents. 

 

So, yeah?

[LowMidHigh]

15 minutes ago, EVOLVIST said:

Design Thinking ~ 

 

So, really, I'm asking honestly without ulterior motive, how does one even begin to design something like the EtherREGEN? 

 

Most designs, inventions, etc. come out of necessity. One old example is the guy whose mother found it difficult in old age to work a potato peeler, so he designed a better handle for the peeler. This design was then used for a lot of other products with a handle. Or, if you check out the evolution of bridges, it's quite fascinating, as we get into holding more weight with less mass. 

 

I'm just sitting here wondering what was the impetus - the necessity - behind the EtherREGEN. Was it that people claimed that there was "noise" in their Ethernet, or studies showed that it was an imperfect system that needed to be remedied? I'm thinking that if those two examples are the leading reason behind the EtherREGEN then the commercial implications could be huge for Uptone. 

 

Now, the last little bit that I wrote holds some mild sarcasm, but only very mild because I didn't hear any sonic benefits from the EtherREGEN. But that doesn't mean anything, for obviously a good number of people do. So, even with my mild nod-and-a-wink, I'm quite serious about applications outside of audio if the promise of better data correction is inherent in the EtherREGEN's design. 

 

Like the guy with the potato peeler, at first he was just wanting to help out his mother, but it became something much bigger! 

 

Still, the question of why remains. If you're willing to share (and maybe you have already), the original mindset behind this device. I would presume that there was some real-world need to be met. 

 

Of course not everything is designed or invented with a need that needs meeting. Or, at least not a practical need. Some designs/inventions are also just stumbled upon. I'm thinking about Albert Hoffman who discovered LSD by accident while trying to synthesize a delivery system for other pharmaceuticals. Or, penicillin, right? Happy accidents. 

 

So, yeah?

 

With all due respect and humility, UpTone wasn’t the first on the quest to reduce or minimize phase and voltage noise coming off the net. There was SOTM much earlier, and some other brands that I don’t feel like looking up now, all which clearly demonstrated the aforementioned efficacy. 

 

UpTone’s solution, though, is as ingenious as it is effective, which sets them apart from anyone else. Moreover, the ER is offered in a reasonable price, which is also quite the exception. 

 

The concept of reducing electrical interference injected from the transmitter to the receiver is an old one and has been pursued in the form of many devices (ISO-Regen is one of them, BTW). In my opinion, the more pertinent question is what inspired John S. to come up with that particular and unique design. 

[pl_svn]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

can you try pushing the FO module into the EtherREGEN's SFP cage just a bit harder?  During testing we have found this to be required and I think a couple of other folks here had similar issue as you and then got it to work by re-seating firmly

 

exactly what happened here

couldn't get the fiber link up but after removing/reinserting the SFP a couple of times all was fine

[stevebythebay]

From all of the posts in this and the other eR threads it would be interesting to determine if any clear correlation exists between system network complexity and unhappiness with the eR. I suspect that those of us having, for instance, only a very limited number of copper connections between sources and the targeted DAC while using the eR have proved happiest.  However, the devices themselves play a part in noise creation/mitigation. Wouldn’t it be nice to identify all these bad actors and uncover how they’re behaving and why the eR is either helping or not. 
 

Maybe Alex or John or a member of the team is already working on this type of analysis or considering how such a survey could be designed. 
 

When it comes to home audio I trust my ear/brain system before bowing to other measurements. And my personal approach, which others on the forum also seem to follow, is to keep things as simple as possible, making single changes, letting the changed environment settle in, and finally listening for a sufficiently long period, to many sources of music, before coming to any conclusions. 

[EVOLVIST]

9 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

With all due respect and humility, UpTone wasn’t the first on the quest to reduce or minimize phase and voltage noise coming off the net. There was SOTM much earlier, and some other brands that I don’t feel like looking up now, all which clearly demonstrated the aforementioned efficacy. 

 

Yeah, I didn't know about previous attempts. Some things in the audio world I'm on the lookout for so, some things not.

 

That doesn't negate my questions, though, does it? Unless we are saying that Uptone is "improving" on an already existing idea. But then we're saying that Uptone had a certain amount of faith in the principle behind the "SOTM" in order to come up with their own.

 

Where did this faith come from?

 

You know, it probably doesn't matter. I'm simply wondering why I didn't hear anything from the EtherREGEN, while others did. I'm a bit jealous of others in this case.  Still, my thought process lead me back to where did the idea come from, even for SOTM.

[thyname]

2 minutes ago, EVOLVIST said:

Where did this faith come from?

 

I believe you received the answers at ASR forums immediately after you joined and posted a few days ago.

 

Whatever makes you happy of course. All I am hoping they don't convince you to sell your excellent DAC and replace it with a Topping DAC 🙂

[EVOLVIST]

5 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

I suspect that those of us having, for instance, only a very limited number of copper connections between sources and the targeted DAC while using the eR have proved happiest.  However, the devices themselves play a part in noise creation/mitigation.

 

I certainly don't want to flog a dead horse (if it's indeed dead), but my copper chain is very small. 

 

I've got coax from outside, leading directly to my listening room. No other splitters or anything in that chain. That coax feeds right into my Xfinity modem, which, by the way, vibrates like a sonuvabitch - the modem, that is. From there, everything sits on my Symposium Ultra Platforms. There are two short runs of Cat6a that chain my SonicTransporter i5 to my modem, and then out again, right into my Linn. Talk about a short copper run! 

 

So, if happiness is predicated on a short run, I should be the happiest!  I'm just trying to make sense of it all.  

[EVOLVIST]

13 minutes ago, thyname said:

 

I believe you received the answers at ASR forums immediately after you joined and posted a few days ago.

 

Whatever makes you happy of course. All I am hoping they don't convince you to sell your excellent DAC and replace it with a Topping DAC 🙂

 

No, no, no...absolutely no. I totally dropped out of that conversation about the EtherREGEN after two posts, I believe, both of which did not seek answers. One post expressed for people to cool out on both sides of the argument. The other expressed my curiosity about amplifier measurements, whereupon I moved out of that thread and started talking amps.

 

So...no.

 

...and no, I love my Linn. I don't care what anybody says. It's paid for, so why not keep it?

[pl_svn]

31 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

From all of the posts in this and the other eR threads it would be interesting to determine if any clear correlation exists between system network complexity and unhappiness with the eR

 

let's see

my eR connects all of my music gear (dedicated NAS included) but... fiber comes from a TP-Link switch (other non music stuff plugged in there by copper, including a wi-fi repeater) connected by copper to a Netgear one (even more non-music stuff plugged in there), three stores upstairs, connected to the TP-Link router, connected to my ISP's modem with fiber coming in 😛

I believe (might be just a sensation: we're talking 10th of a second) connections (to my Roon core and to the NAS) are snappier with the eR than they used to be with my previous setup: TP-Link MC + Cisco switch

 

EDIT: wait... connections are snappier indeed: I also have a Pi+AlloDigiOne connected to the eR (for a secondary system) that... used to take ages (5~10 seconds) to connect to via a web browser when I needed to change RoPieee settings. now it takes 1~2 seconds

[stevebythebay]

30 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

 

let's see

my eR connects all of my music gear (dedicated NAS included) but... fiber comes from a TP-Link switch (other non music stuff plugged in there by copper, including a wi-fi repeater) connected by copper to a Netgear one (even more non-music stuff plugged in there), three stores upstairs, connected to the TP-Link router, connected to my ISP's modem with fiber coming in 😛

I believe (might be just a sensation: we're talking 10th of a second) connections (to my Roon core and to the NAS) are snappier with the eR than they used to be with my previous setup: TP-Link MC + Cisco switch

 

EDIT: wait... connections are snappier indeed: I also have a Pi+AlloDigiOne connected to the eR (for a secondary system) that... used to take ages (5~10 seconds) to connect to via a web browser when I needed to change RoPieee settings. now it takes 1~2 seconds

Fascinating. I don’t recall the eR being advertised as benefitting speed. Who knew?  Just added to our conundrum.

 

Ever feel like one of the proverbial blind men around the elephant

 

[pl_svn]

might just be the result of... you know... turn everything off/wait/turn everything back on

sometime engineers are right 😛

[stevebythebay]

49 minutes ago, EVOLVIST said:

 

I certainly don't want to flog a dead horse (if it's indeed dead), but my copper chain is very small. 

 

I've got coax from outside, leading directly to my listening room. No other splitters or anything in that chain. That coax feeds right into my Xfinity modem, which, by the way, vibrates like a sonuvabitch - the modem, that is. From there, everything sits on my Symposium Ultra Platforms. There are two short runs of Cat6a that chain my SonicTransporter i5 to my modem, and then out again, right into my Linn. Talk about a short copper run! 

 

So, if happiness is predicated on a short run, I should be the happiest!  I'm just trying to make sense of it all.  

Pretty simple.  So, I'm assuming when you tested the eR it effectively replaced the switching function of the Xfinity router.  By that I mean you used Cat6a from the Xfinity to one of the A side ports on the eR and did the same for another Cat6a from the SonicTransporter to the eR and finally out the B side using a third Cat6a to the Linn.  Or was this never tested?

[nonesup]

Hi Alan  

Have the boards of the second batch already arrived?

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, EVOLVIST said:

I'm just sitting here wondering what was the impetus - the necessity - behind the EtherREGEN. Was it that people claimed that there was "noise" in their Ethernet, or studies showed that it was an imperfect system that needed to be remedied?

 

I'll be really brief because this is a very busy day.

The impetus for the EtherREGEN came from @JohnSwenson's deep understanding of the disturbances that go inside all CMOS chips and how variations in clock-edge timing affect their ground an power planes.  Remember, John was a senior engineer for LSI Logic>Avago>Broadcom for 31 years.

His theories and proof of the efficacy of the EtherREGEN's active differential isolation moat will all be discussed in a long paper he is working on (he is approaching it in chapters and I am already editing the first chapter).

This is stuff that he has been thinking about and working with for years. It is only just recently that silicon chips to accomplish the ADIM/reclocking have become available.

 

Quote

I'm thinking that if those two examples are the leading reason behind the EtherREGEN then the commercial implications could be huge for Uptone. 

 

Well yes actually. The new chips and techniques used in the EtherREGEN can be applied to other audio applications--specifically and separately USB and DACs. If you are speaking about applications beyond audio, that I do not know. Audio is my only interest right now--unless John invents something with mass appeal that requires us to go on Shark Tank and ask for $2mil. 

 

 

11 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

With all due respect and humility, UpTone wasn’t the first on the quest to reduce or minimize phase and voltage noise coming off the net. There was SOTM much earlier, and some other brands that I don’t feel like looking up now, all which clearly demonstrated the aforementioned efficacy.

 

Just to be clear, we began development of the EtherREGEN in late 2017, and as far as I know that was well before SOtM had even announced their switch.  

[By the way, the SOtM switch is a combination of their ubiquitous clock board--in a single clock domain--and capacitors and inductors used on the magnetics of each port--all passive, same as used in their iSO-CAT6 in-line filter. They have said so themselves.]

Other brands have simply been clock and power supply modifications to off-the-shelf switches. The EtherREGEN's use of all differential clock lines, active differential isolation, and dual clock domains exists in a different realm that other currently available devices.

 

Quote

UpTone’s solution, though, is as ingenious as it is effective, which sets them apart from anyone else. Moreover, the ER is offered in a reasonable price, which is also quite the exception.

 

THANK YOU!  All of those attributes are what we strive to deliver. 

 

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, nonesup said:

Have the boards of the second batch already arrived?

 

117 today, the other 127 next week. And yes, that is 6 boards short of the 250 expected, but there were parts shortages. I'm taking those out of the large allotment that was promised to our Hong Kong dealer, AfterDark. We will be working on flashing and testing these first boards all weekend.

 

I did do a recount of committed December (second batch) orders, and despite my earlier optimism that some January-promised units might get shipped in December, that is not going to happen. Sorry if I got some people's hopes up only to dash them...

 

[EVOLVIST]

26 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Pretty simple.  So, I'm assuming when you tested the eR it effectively replaced the switching function of the Xfinity router.  By that I mean you used Cat6a from the Xfinity to one of the A side ports on the eR and did the same for another Cat6a from the SonicTransporter to the eR and finally out the B side using a third Cat6a to the Linn.  Or was this never tested?

 

Yes, sir. Exactly. Call me simple, but I still believe that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  I fed the ER in a few other configs, but this was my primary config, and the one I had it burning in on. I wanted to see if that vibrating Xfinity modem was giving off unknown fits or not.

 

But you know, I'll close here. There never has been a one-size-fits-all audio device of any kind that I can think of. There has to be thousands of DACs by now. How many amps? Wheeew! How many USB reclocking devices? The list is pretty much endless, and what may be good for one person may not be good for another. 

 

I recall all of my trials with dCS and while I could have lived with the dCS line forever, I was turned off by the concept of a bunch of separates, not the products themselves. So, yeah, I'm happy for everyone who hears what they hear from the EtherREGEN...or any other audio device for that matter.   

[nonesup]

15 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

117 today, the other 127 next week. And yes, that is 6 boards short of the 250 expected, but there were parts shortages. I'm taking those out of the large allotment that was promised to our Hong Kong dealer, AfterDark. We will be working on flashing and testing these first boards all weekend.

 

I did do a recount of committed December (second batch) orders, and despite my earlier optimism that some January-promised units might get shipped in December, that is not going to happen. Sorry if I got some people's hopes up only to dash them...

 

👏👏

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, EVOLVIST said:

 

No, no, no...absolutely no. I totally dropped out of that conversation about the EtherREGEN after two posts, I believe, both of which did not seek answers. One post expressed for people to cool out on both sides of the argument. The other expressed my curiosity about amplifier measurements, whereupon I moved out of that thread and started talking amps.

 

So...no.

 

...and no, I love my Linn. I don't care what anybody says. It's paid for, so why not keep it?

If you haven't sold or returned your EtherRegen, I'd be curious to hear the results of a second trial after the firmware is updated.

 

You may be surprised.

[Superdad]

58 minutes ago, lmitche said:

If you haven't sold or returned your EtherRegen, I'd be curious to hear the results of a second trial after the firmware is updated.

You may be surprised.

 

I think he did sell it, at a premium over retail, to @MarkS who was quite thrilled to receive it. Beats waiting for the almost sold-out January production run.