EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Ehsu]

5 hours ago, sicher said:

Hello,

 

every now and then I am tempted to upgrade my naim system. (-:

 

Some days ago my dealer recommended the AQ-Switch SE to me. Looking for more information I found the EtherREGEN which looks very promising and appealing to me. There’s much I like about it - from the philosophy behind it to the open discussion about its design and the obvious know how and experience of the developers. 

 

So I wonder if someone could please summarise the differences between those two.

 

Actually I am looking for arguments to wait for the EtherREGEN instead of going for the AQ-Switch SE right now. 😉

 

Thanks a lot,

Michael 

Hi Michael @sicher, I can give you some feedback once I receive my ER as I have a Naim rig including ND555 but you will have to wait until Jan next year because my order is in the second batch unfortunately. I am keen to hear if ER improves on PRaT and music engagement. That is " IF " you can wait that long :-). My experience tells me network switch before my ND555 affect the sound so much that I got much more dynamic, open and faster sound after I upgraded its PS. The improvement was so big that shocked me and my Naim dealer. In short, I am pretty sure UpTone ER will improve the sound further compared to my existing non-audiophile Netgear + LPS. But the question is, which area or direction will it take me to? Hope its not tube kind of sound....

 

Cheers

 

Eddie

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, Ehsu said:

Hope its not tube kind of sound....

 

A vacuum tube EtherREGEN? Now there’s an idea! 

[PYP]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

Ours is designed from-the-ground-up, addressing the true issues of why clocking and isolation matter with packet-data interfaces by providing active differential isolation.

 

Alex,

Did you mention earlier that John would explain this in greater detail in a whitepaper?  That would be very interesting.  You know, in his copious free time 😉

[sicher]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

Hi Michael:

I see that this is your first post here at Audiophile Style.  WELCOME!

 

Thank you for your interest in our new switch.  On the web page for EtherREGEN I went to considerable lengths to explain and illustrate the many technical aspects of the design, most all of which set our product apart from the competitors. 

 

As far as I know, AQVOX is just a clock (and maybe PS) upgrade of a D-Link switch—and they really do not show or tell you anything about the actual topology as we do.  Ours is designed from-the-ground-up, addressing the true issues of why clocking and isolation matter with packet-data interfaces by providing active differential isolation.

EtherREGEN is a first and only in the world to do this. This is a serious all-new engineering approach.

 

Of course hundreds of users will compare and decide once we begin shipping hundreds of units in just a few weeks. 

 

Cheers,

--Alex

 

 

 

Hi Alex,

 

thanks a lot for your kind reply! I really appreciate you being open to let us know the technical aspects of the design.

 

To make it short: You have a new order. 😁

 

All the best and thank you very much for your great efforts!

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, PYP said:

Alex,

Did you mention earlier that John would explain this in greater detail in a whitepaper?  That would be very interesting.  You know, in his copious free time 😉

 

John is building a special input board to use with his recently acquired Wavecrest DTS-2079 timing signal analyzer (680 femto seconds resolution!). He plans to make some comparative measurements (on a DAC's ground plane and I2S lines as I recall) to demonstrate the effect of the EtherREGEN.

He has explained to me in detail the mechanisms by which deterministic upstream jitter propagates on the ground and power planes--and inside the chips themselves (it is all known and accepted science that has always been there). I would pass it all along but I have only notes and an inability to accurately reconstruct the entire concept. He is of course the right person to do so.

I would not mind his taking an informal first-pass at it here on the forum--and we could edit and enhance it into a "paper" and add the illustrative measurements later on.  But that is up to John. While EtherREGEN is off his plate for now, he is working hard on a couple of other projects for us as well as lending his expertise at his community church (I never knew churches had such sophisticated A/V and IT systems). Swenson is the busiest "retired" person I have ever known! 

[PYP]

Thank you (know how busy you are).  I have a retired friend like that.  He does pro bono work all the time for folks who cannot afford the proper legal representation and that doesn't include his non-paid Board work.  These kinds of people make the world work.  They lead by example and always give of themselves.  But....back to audio stuff.  

[feelingears]

@sicher I've told Alex directly that when Uptone's first Regen made my humble office system (a Denon all-in-one) take on Naim-like qualities in PRaT, and add bass like I had never heard from digital, I was relieved I didn't need to pony up for a Naim Supernait like I was originally planning! Instead, I upgraded my Regen to an ISO Regen and my LPS-1 to a 1.2. (Naim need not worry–I'm still thinking about a Supernait now that the 3 is out.)

 

With consumer and audiophile gear alike, cleaning up digital signal and power together is likely to yield strong improvements, and this is what Uptone delivers at a enormously agreeable price. Happy listening!

 

 

 

 

[sicher]

I know it will take some time till my EtherREGEN will arrive but I want to be fully prepared! 😁

So two questions:

Which power cable do I need (for Austria)? Which plug goes into the PS? Is it one on the photos attached? 2 or 3 pins?

 

I think I read somewhere here that no fancy LAN cable is necessary. Am I right? I just thought about using my MeiCord opal. Or should I get one of the (hyped) audioquest cables? 😉

Thanks,

Michael

[Dutch]

1 hour ago, sicher said:

Which power cable do I need (for Austria)? Which plug goes into the PS? Is it one on the photos attached? 2 or 3 pins?

It’s the three pin cable you need (IEC15) with the standard SMPS Uptone delivers.

 

1 hour ago, sicher said:

I think I read somewhere here that no fancy LAN cable is necessary. Am I right? I just thought about using my MeiCord opal. Or should I get one of the (hyped) audioquest cables? 😉

IIRC John wrote about the cable going to the etherREGEN which should not matter much. Between the etherregen and the device closest to the DAC I think the cable will still matter for preserving the signal integrity. Just how much, if at all, is topic of discussion and likely varies with each setup. Experimentation, I’m afraid is key here.

[octaviars]

@sicher this is from Uptone webpage.

 

"Every EtherREGEN ships with an UpTone-branded 7.5V/36W world-voltage-compatible (100V~240V) SMPS brick with 45cm detachable IEC C14 AC mains cord (USA plug; use any local cord if you are overseas)."

 

The SMPS is internally wired from protective earth to minus negative output so no need to connect any ground to the ground screw if you use that SMSP and more than one RJ45 on the A-side.

[PYP]

Concerning ventilation, would it work to place the ER under a shelf which is open on all sides and is about 2" above the hard surface floor (that is, about 1" clearance above for the ER and open on the sides)?  Thanks.

[Puma Cat]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:06 AM, sicher said:

Hello,

 

every now and then I am tempted to upgrade my naim system. (-:

 

Some days ago my dealer recommended the AQ-Switch SE to me. Looking for more information I found the EtherREGEN which looks very promising and appealing to me. There’s much I like about it - from the philosophy behind it to the open discussion about its design and the obvious know how and experience of the developers. 

 

So I wonder if someone could please summarise the differences between those two.

 

Actually I am looking for arguments to wait for the EtherREGEN instead of going for the AQ-Switch SE right now. 😉

 

Thanks a lot,

Michael 

Its going to sound better. It was designed from the ground up by an engineer with 30+ years of industry experience to do this.  The AQ-Vox switch is a modification of an existing IT-based product, a D-link switch. 

 

And the EtherREGEN will cost ~30% less. 

[Superdad]

Have all the fun you want tonight gentlemen.  I'll be sweeping it all away in the morning... 

[stevebythebay]

The EtherREGEN, like all alternative switches, does not live in some sort of vacuum.  All Ethernet cables move bits, but are potentially affected and effect what gets delivered to the switch and beyond. 

 

The EtherRegen's design is to mitigate known problems that other switches fail to address.  But the resulting transfer of "music" is only as good as all the links in the chain. 

 

Poorly designed and executed cables can generate signal distortion (phase issues from impedance irregularities).  That's beyond the common mode noise suppression which the EtherREGEN handles through the painstaking design and execution that John's developed.

The great thing about the EtherREGEN is the degree of isolation among all the ports and especially across the moat.  And minimizing leakage and clock phase noise will certainly go far. 

 

Yet getting the bits in and our of the switch without inducing any corruption, epecially following the switch matters.

[Iving]

I guess it's nail-biting for all of us pending "listening impressions".

With hundreds of EtherREGENs in the pipeline, there will be just as many variations in equipment permutations from which SQ effects will be reported.

Inevitably, cable alternatives will form part of that rich informational tapestry. To exclude cables from EtherREGEN experiences would be preposterous (literally - since EtherREGEN requires at least two).

I, for one, will be trying out a few combinations. I've already shielded the hell out of a couple of .75m AQ Cinnamons (with a drain option) in anticipation. I'll be trying a cheapo in their stead by way of A-B. If I hear an improvement either way then there *is* one. I need no narrower (or more theoretical) empiricism.

Even the most privileged amongst us cannot explore all possibilities. We are limited by time if nothing else! Seasoned and not-so-seasoned audiophiles, including myself, will be reading with glee - wondering what bang-for-dollar improvements we could engineer in our own systems based on the experiences of *others* which - in the scientific sense - we can extrapolate with only limited justification.

This isn't religion. No-one has to be right about anything. No-one *is* right about anything.

I do hope the EtherREGEN is as resounding a success as we all hope.

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, Superdad said:

Have all the fun you want tonight gentlemen.  I'll be sweeping it all away in the morning... 

 

As promised. Arguments about ABX and cables gone, along with a few other random OT posts. It was a fun diversion while it lasted. 

[kennyb123]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

As promised. Arguments about ABX and cables gone, along with a few other random OT posts. It was a fun diversion while it lasted. 

 

I very much appreciate the great job you do at keeping us on point here.  

[k-man]

C'mon! I could see a CableREGEN coming up in the near future 

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I very much appreciate the great job you do at keeping us on point here.  

 

Well doing that is much less stressful/nerve-wracking than the days I just spent making $147K in pre-paid parts buys for the second and third production runs--before the first shipment of boards even arrives. 

On top of that, the high-limit credit card I use as a rotating bank line just got hacked--with some stupid $13 charges at a Walgreens pharmacy in Texas--so Chase is issuing and over-nighting a new card.

Plus the our case manufacturer included the wrong size and color of screws in the shipment of EtherREGEN cases.  10,000 of them when we only need 1,000 to do the first 250 cases! 

  

 

But I view this as all minor "pre-disastering." Just means that the really important stuff is going to go smoothly.  

 

[Confused]

Just checking in, have I missed anything today?

[PYP]

Alex,

Concerning ventilation, would it work to place the ER under a shelf which is open on all sides and is about 2" above the hard surface floor (that is, about 1" clearance above for the ER and open on the sides)?  Thanks.

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, PYP said:

Concerning ventilation, would it work to place the ER under a shelf which is open on all sides and is about 2" above the hard surface floor (that is, about 1" clearance above for the ER and open on the sides)?

That should be just fine.

[Superdad]

The below is strictly for chips and parts going on the top (and bottom) of the boards.  Does not include the $33 each for the bare board, attachment of the parts, and shipping of the boards.

Yowzers!  (and them's US$!)  The 10GHz-capable flip-flops, the isolators, and all the voltage regs are really killers...

[rickca]

I don't know any other designer of audio components that would disclose that level of detail.  

[Superdad]

19 minutes ago, rickca said:

I don't know any other designer of audio components that would disclose that level of detail.  

 

I know. I must be a fool. 

 

Of course the above does not include the special-ordered Crystek CCHD-575 XO, the case, the 3 heatsinks, the custom-mixed thermal interface silicone, the included SMPS, $1 stainless steel grounding thumb-screw, flash/test/assembly labor, John's per unit royalty, and the average $25 per PayPal/credit card fees we absorb and don't charge our customers. Not counting the labor portion, all that other stuff brings total cost up to about $380 per EtherREGEN. 

So if we stay somewhat small, with not too many employees, I can make a decent living (and put something aside for a "someday" retirement). But not going to become a megalith organization with a whole Sales & Marketing staff. Personal choice.

 

Make no mistake though:

John and I have some VERY ambitious projects/products planned out for the next several years. (Don't ask; I won't tell.) Each of these will draw heavily on the cash capital that builds up from the prior successes. Thus what people may not realize is that their EtherREGEN purchases this year will fuel the R&D and production of more very cool and innovative UpTone products for the coming years. 

"NO ME-TOO ENGINEERING" is our motto!