EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[matthias]

1 hour ago, jos said:

In my humble opinion you don’t need optical anymore with the promises of the new ER. Don’t make your chain over complicated. 

 

Yes, from the Uptone HP:

 

"Use of optical into—or out of—EtherREGEN is not required to obtain best performance. The whole point of all the isolation and re-clocking techniques we are using (in dual domains) is to make most all of the upstream stuff not matter. Other than the complete galvanic isolation that optical offers going into the EtherREGEN (which we duplicate going across the moat), there is no advantage to running optical into it.

If you happen to have a router with an optical port and have already run many feet of optical cable to your music system rack, then sure, use the optical port of the EtherREGEN.  But don't go out of your way to run optical if you do not already have it. And of course for the few people who have an endpoint with optical input (the excellent Sonore opticalRendu comes to mind), one can “turn around” the EtherREGEN and feed that DAC-connected endpoint from the optical cage."

 

Matt

[incus]

On 10/10/2019 at 5:18 AM, vortecjr said:

I agree with you. However, the silly thread will say you need two ERs in series each with external reference clocks in order to get good sound. Also, for good measure the silly thread will say you need two linear power supplies that you have to wait over a year to get or it just won't sound quite right. I'm just saying... 

This is exactly what I plan to do with the two eRegens I ordered so I will report back if there is any difference vs. one vs. no eRegen.  I also plan to test various power supplies - linears, ultracap, battery, wall-wart . As well as SOtM ethernet cables vs. generic Cat6 vs. Aqvox. (And yes I do have different optical cages and cables to compare!) I will do these tests, then I pass judgement. I believe that is the scientific method...

[incus]

2 hours ago, Matias said:

Using B side input and A side optic output exclusively makes the $640 EtherREGEN do the same function as the $250 opticalModule though...

Same function, sure, but most likely different results.  Also no different than going A side input and B side output, as stated numerous times in this thread.

[PYP]

41 minutes ago, incus said:

This is exactly what I plan to do with the two eRegens I ordered so I will report back if there is any difference vs. one vs. no eRegen.  I also plan to test various power supplies - linears, ultracap, battery, wall-wart . As well as SOtM ethernet cables vs. generic Cat6 vs. Aqvox. (And yes I do have different optical cages and cables to compare!) I will do these tests, then I pass judgement. I believe that is the scientific method...

I always enjoy reading these kind of comparisons.  Given all the variables in different systems (power, gear, room and interaction of those), it is difficult to understand how the results might differ (or not) in different systems.  In other words, can some/all of the results be generalized and therefore apply to and be useful to everyone?  

 

And then there is the variable of personal taste and our own hearing.  As long as it remains fun and doesn't become dogmatic, experimenting is great.  Of course, those who design gear have a much greater insight into what might work or not, and can most likely anticipate results in a way that we mere mortals cannot.   

[jos]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Yes, from the Uptone HP:

 

"Use of optical into—or out of—EtherREGEN is not required to obtain best performance. The whole point of all the isolation and re-clocking techniques we are using (in dual domains) is to make most all of the upstream stuff not matter. Other than the complete galvanic isolation that optical offers going into the EtherREGEN (which we duplicate going across the moat), there is no advantage to running optical into it.

If you happen to have a router with an optical port and have already run many feet of optical cable to your music system rack, then sure, use the optical port of the EtherREGEN.  But don't go out of your way to run optical if you do not already have it. And of course for the few people who have an endpoint with optical input (the excellent Sonore opticalRendu comes to mind), one can “turn around” the EtherREGEN and feed that DAC-connected endpoint from the optical cage."

 

Matt

Agree, thanks!

[rickca]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:18 AM, vortecjr said:

I agree with you. However, the silly thread will say you need two ERs in series each with external reference clocks in order to get good sound. Also, for good measure the silly thread will say you need two linear power supplies that you have to wait over a year to get or it just won't sound quite right. I'm just saying... 

There's very little discussion of Sonore products on the silly thread.  People need to actually try things out themselves to decide what makes a positive difference in their system.  Of course, you can choose to just believe vendor fairytales instead.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, Matias said:

Using B side input and A side optic output exclusively makes the $640 EtherREGEN do the same function as the $250 opticalModule though...

 

Function the same. Performance very different. ($70+ --our cost--of differential isolators, flip-flops, clock-buffers, and other chips will do that.)

 

But let's wait for everyone to get their EtherREGENs...

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, rickca said:

Of course, you can choose to just believe vendor fairytales instead.

 

I am really not happy with the tone of recent posts here guys.  

What's funny is I seem to recall something similar with past launches--where there is restlessness during the period while folks are waiting for shipment. 

[simon_pepper]

Well, my intended use of an EtherRegen & UltraRendu is different, as the UltraRendu running SonoreUPnP Bridge, will be connected to ‘A’ ports, along with feed from NUC/Rock Roon Server & NAS, with the ‘B’ port going to my Naim NDS network player.

 

Yes, would be different if the UltraRendu was the USB output to a DAC path & not part of the TCP/IP path to a unit with a Ethernet input, then a Burr-Brown PCM1704U based 'sign-magnitude' digital converter stage with an analogue stage on a brass isolation platform.

Simon.

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, incus said:

This is exactly what I plan to do with the two eRegens I ordered so I will report back if there is any difference vs. one vs. no eRegen.  I also plan to test various power supplies - linears, ultracap, battery, wall-wart . As well as SOtM ethernet cables vs. generic Cat6 vs. Aqvox. (And yes I do have different optical cages and cables to compare!) I will do these tests, then I pass judgement. I believe that is the scientific method...

It's a lot of work to change only one thing at a time with all those variables. You will more likely than not have to make different tests depending on what you accomplish. Also, as soon as you introduce your opinion into the mix the scientific method goes out the door because others can't repeat the test to verify your results. It really just comes down to what you prefer.  

[vortecjr]

10 minutes ago, simon_pepper said:

Well, my intended use of an EtherRegen & UltraRendu is different, as the UltraRendu running SonoreUPnP Bridge, will be connected to ‘A’ ports, along with feed from NUC/Rock Roon Server & NAS, with the ‘B’ port going to my Naim NDS network player.

 

Yes, would be different if the UltraRendu was the USB output to a DAC path & not part of the TCP/IP path to a unit with a Ethernet input, then a Burr-Brown PCM1704U based 'sign-magnitude' digital converter stage with an analogue stage on a brass isolation platform.

Simon.

This makes prefect sense. I did not consider this application above in my diagram.   

[incus]

46 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

It's a lot of work to change only one thing at a time with all those variables. You will more likely than not have to make different tests depending on what you accomplish. Also, as soon as you introduce your opinion into the mix the scientific method goes out the door because others can't repeat the test to verify your results. It really just comes down to what you prefer.  

What you are calling work, I call fun! This is the sh*t I live for in this hobby.  And if ears are opinions, then like a**holes we all have them.  Don't see how they can ever be removed from any of the testing we do.  No ears, no music.  But that's another discussion for another day (hopefully never, actually).  Really looking forward to the eRegen.  I have no idea what to expect as I have spent a lot of FUN time arriving where I am with my system and I am VERY curious to see what changes, if any, it brings. Thanks Alex and John for bringing some excitement to the game!

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, simon_pepper said:

Well, my intended use of an EtherRegen & UltraRendu is different, as the UltraRendu running SonoreUPnP Bridge, will be connected to ‘A’ ports, along with feed from NUC/Rock Roon Server & NAS, with the ‘B’ port going to my Naim NDS network player.

 

Yes, would be different if the UltraRendu was the USB output to a DAC path & not part of the TCP/IP path to a unit with a Ethernet input, then a Burr-Brown PCM1704U based 'sign-magnitude' digital converter stage with an analogue stage on a brass isolation platform.

Simon.

Here you go

 

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

I am really not happy with the tone of recent posts here guys.  

 

A bit silly, ya think?

 

[LowMidHigh]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

A bit silly, ya think?

 

I'm not addressing you directly, but no one should fret too much. 30 day money-back allows one to test and validate the product"s efficacy with only the shipping cost at stake. 

[Foggie]

12 hours ago, jos said:

In my humble opinion you don’t need optical anymore with the promises of the new ER. Don’t make your chain over complicated. Superdad should sent one to HiFi news for a review to enter the broader market.

Ummm, well I will add that optical has a lot going for it, especially with its inherent isolation and wouldn't be too quick to discount it.  Additionally its a hell of a lot easier to route, manage and its not expensive. 

 

There is a difference between optical and ethernet sound-wise IME and really comes down to preference / system specific.  I'll take optical, which is what I ran to listening room.

[Indydan]

Alex, is the cutoff for November still 8912?

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, Foggie said:

Ummm, well I will add that optical has a lot going for it, especially with its inherent isolation and wouldn't be too quick to discount it.  Additionally its a hell of a lot easier to route, manage and its not expensive. 

 

There is a difference between optical and ethernet sound-wise IME and really comes down to preference / system specific.  I'll take optical, which is what I ran to listening room.

Fully agree on all points. Optical is not only inexpensive, its downright cheap, as well as robust and a piece of cake to route as its thin, light and flexible. Its also has very low insertion loss, and is very quiet, immune to RFI & EMI, and provides galvanic isolation and will not pass leakage currents. 

 

It also sounds really good. 

[Ricardo007]

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

We feel that the optical SFP is a much cleaner design overall.

@vortecjr

If I remember right you planned to test this rj45 sfp cable, if u did how did it compare soundwise to a basic or gotham copper lan cable?

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, Indydan said:

Alex, is the cutoff for November still 8912?

 

Yes, unless someone with order #8912 or lower cancels, every last November unit is spoken for.  

 

It looks like the first batch sold out in the first 3 minutes.  I sent an e-mail yesterday to people with order numbers 8913 through 8946, explaining that although the web page they saw may have said November batch, that they in fact ended up in the second batch--for December shipment.  Based on the replies that I received--and looking at the time stamps of the orders, it is possible that even some people with order numbers higher than 8946 thought they made it in to the first batch.

I really did try hard to run this right, but had no way to expect it all to happen that fast and no way to adjust it quickly enough on the fly. Essentially 150 orders landed near instantly! 

 

Also, our Shopify e-commerce engine only registers an order number when payment is complete.  People who pay with PayPal go through a longer loop than with credit card, so those orders hit slightly later. I had no way to anticipate this either.

------------------

 

At this point my focus is 100% on seeing to it that we can produce all these units.  500 EtherREGENs to individually flash, attach heat sinks, test, assemble into cases, kit up, prepare shipping and export forms, etc.--beginning when the first board shipment arrives on October 29th through to second batch shipments December 12th.  That's a heckuva task for my very small staff, especially since we have about 50 UltraCap LPS-1.2s to get out by the 23rd of this month (once cases for those arrive on the 21st)--and we are still building JS-2s.

 

To be honest, while we are very flattered that so many people trust us--likely through reputation and past perfomance--enough to place orders for a $640 product (which only a handful of quiet beta-testers have heard), it is all a bit overwhelming. And given that today I turned in a PCB raw parts order (for 500 more units--the second and third runs--for December and January customer shipment) totaling over $100K (pre-paid), I think most of you will understand when I tell you my nerves are somewhat  shot.  

 

I run a modest company, and the scale and pace of all this is unexpected. Fortunately I am a very organized person, this is not our first big launch, my assistant is committed (and looking forward to a really nice Christmas bonus!), and I have the capital.  I don't profess to be a seasoned executive with big-corporation management experience, but I know myself, my business, and my customers well--and I only act ethically and with integrity.  Beyond that I got nothing. 

 

Actually, that is not true.  I have the love and support of my wife and family. And I have deep friendship and a wonderful working relationship with John Swenson.  And truly, without his genius, decades of experience, and thousands of hours at his bench and under the microscope, not a single one of UpTone's innovative products would even exist!

 

There is one other large factor fueling the UpTone jets:  It is all of you.  I mean this. And I am not referring to your orders (though those are very nice). The enthusiasm, curiosity, respect, encouragement, and ideas shared here on Audiophile Style--pleasantly large doses of which get directed to my endeavors with John--are the steam that drives us forward.  Audio and music are our shared passions, and this community makes it fun and permits me to make it my vocation.  

With gratitude,

--Alex Crespi

 

[simon_pepper]

But why not - the UltraCap products work well (I have a LPS 1 powering a UltraRendu) and are well supported.

 

Customers report good things for the LPS 1.2, the ISOregen and JS2 products.

John’s designs in the Rendu range, Optical modules are also well received and work well.

We have followed the design parameters and reasoning in this switch.

We also have read that use of a quality switch makes improvements to a streamed audio path - there are many reports of how the CISCO Catalyst 8-port switch performs, and that is just a general purpose enterprise class switch - now apply focused design and good engineering practices on the problem and the results have the potential of being well worth it.

 

Looking forward to this step of system improvements.

[alsterfan]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 I have the love and support of my wife and family. And I have deep friendship and a wonderful working relationship with John Swenson.  And truly, without his genius, decades of experience, and thousands of hours at his bench and under the microscope, not a single one of UpTone's innovative products would even exist!

 

 

 

Dear Alex,

First of all congrats on the overwhelmingly successful launch of your EtherRegen!

Apart from business details you talk about I am impressed by the above quoted lines. To me this is sort of a love letter to your family and John Swenson, telling me - and not for the first time - that here a man with a fine character is acting.

You say: "I only act ethically and with integrity."  To me these are keywords that have shone through a lot of comments you have written in the past (I happened to "meet" you in 2012 I think) and which, apart from the quality of Uptone Audio´s products, add to the success of your ambitious company.

 

All the best,

Uwe

[stevebythebay]

I'm writing this to promote clarity for prospective customers.  I know many of us on this forum like to dive into the weeds, but I'm an old sales/marketing guy so....

 

You've listed the two goals that the EtherREGEN is designed to dramatically decrease: leakage and clock-phase noise.  From the Uptone web page (sales) and other bits I've read on the forum I think I understand the clock-phase noise issue, and that this will be handled by the "moat", but I don't see much about the leakage issue. 

 

I think I recall the leakage issue has to do with all the upstream power related high and low source impedance leakage from all digital source devices plugged into the switch, and across all the A side ports as well.  A bit more on that would be nice on the sales page.

 

And it might be worthwhile to also include the bits about EMI/RFI shielding that are also being featured in the switch.  I think this was alluded to some time ago on the forum.

 

Maybe you can beef up the description on the Uptone web page for the EtherREGEN.  I suspect many of us on the forum, and others who will come to that sales page to understand why they should be considering using the EtherREGEN vs. other options, both targeted for general use as well as the audio realm, could use more information, and a clear argument as to just how these elements actually surface themselves in the playback of our music system -- what are the notable symptoms? 

 

Will it result in less "noise" in the system, greater "clarity", a lower "noise floor", more space around instruments/singers, greater width/depth of musical space, etc?  We all know you're not in the business of over hyping any of your products, but I certainly want to see this as a huge success.  And getting it into the hands of appropriate reviewers is important as networking of musical bits is taking over physical media as a source.

 

No deep dive needed on how the sausage is made, just what the problems are, that they're being addressed, and the results to be expected when using the EtherREGEN.  As you state on the initial description on the page "producing surprising audible sonic improvements in fine music systems."

[sicher]

Hello,

 

every now and then I am tempted to upgrade my naim system. (-:

 

Some days ago my dealer recommended the AQ-Switch SE to me. Looking for more information I found the EtherREGEN which looks very promising and appealing to me. There’s much I like about it - from the philosophy behind it to the open discussion about its design and the obvious know how and experience of the developers. 

 

So I wonder if someone could please summarise the differences between those two.

 

Actually I am looking for arguments to wait for the EtherREGEN instead of going for the AQ-Switch SE right now. 😉

 

Thanks a lot,

Michael 

[Superdad]

Hi Michael:

I see that this is your first post here at Audiophile Style.  WELCOME!

 

Thank you for your interest in our new switch.  On the web page for EtherREGEN I went to considerable lengths to explain and illustrate the many technical aspects of the design, most all of which set our product apart from the competitors. 

 

As far as I know, AQVOX is just a clock (and maybe PS) upgrade of a D-Link switch—and they really do not show or tell you anything about the actual topology as we do.  Ours is designed from-the-ground-up, addressing the true issues of why clocking and isolation matter with packet-data interfaces by providing active differential isolation.

EtherREGEN is a first and only in the world to do this. This is a serious all-new engineering approach.

 

Of course hundreds of users will compare and decide once we begin shipping hundreds of units in just a few weeks. 

 

Cheers,

--Alex