EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

Are we there yet, (super)dad?  😐

 

We are here, we are just not yet there. 

Closer every day.  Hoping the pre-production boards arrive within the week.  

I promise to post all progress...

[gstew]

23 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Your link doesn’t work

 

And I suppose you’re asking what SPF Module fits the cage of the EtherRegen ?

Lets try that link again... 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01663TTCE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3KXHMB5SA7Q9Z&psc=1

 

AND it probably helps if I also link to the specific Delock FMC I have:

 

https://www.reichelt.com/us/en/de/en/media-conv-100base-fx-sc-mm-1310nm-2km-delock-86444-p175548.html?r=1

 

SO one question is if the wired Ethernet port of the EtherRegen will work ok into the 100 Mbps RPi. Going back through this thread, it sounds like it will.  Let me know if I misread and it won't.

 

So then the other question is what would be a good optical SFP module compatible with the Delock and would the linked adapter cable work.

 

Better?

 

Greg in MIssissippi

[JohnSwenson]

9 hours ago, gstew said:

Lets try that link again... 

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01663TTCE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3KXHMB5SA7Q9Z&psc=1

 

AND it probably helps if I also link to the specific Delock FMC I have:

 

https://www.reichelt.com/us/en/de/en/media-conv-100base-fx-sc-mm-1310nm-2km-delock-86444-p175548.html?r=1

 

SO one question is if the wired Ethernet port of the EtherRegen will work ok into the 100 Mbps RPi. Going back through this thread, it sounds like it will.  Let me know if I misread and it won't.

 

So then the other question is what would be a good optical SFP module compatible with the Delock and would the linked adapter cable work.

 

Better?

 

Greg in MIssissippi

The optical port of the linked FMC will NOT work with the SFP port of the EtherREGEN. The SFP port on the EtherREGEN is gigabit ONLY. The RJ45 jack on the FMC IS compatible with any of the 5 RJ45 jacks on the EtherREGEN.

 

The 4 jacks on one side are all 10/100/1000, the single port on the other side is just 100. The SFP port is JUST gigabit no matter what the SFP module is.

 

John S.

[cool_chris]

So there is no 1 gb across the moat ?

you can get 1gb in and out but you will not cross the moat ?

please let me know if misunderstood 

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

So there is no 1 gb across the moat ?

you can get 1gb in and out but you will not cross the moat ?

please let me know if misunderstood 

 

For the four 'A' side ports and the SFP port--Gigabit rate will go between them and any attached devices.

But you are correct that the 'B' side port on the other side of the moat is 10/100Mbps only (plenty even for DSD512), and data flowing across the active isolators is at 100Mbps.

[gstew]

15 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The optical port of the linked FMC will NOT work with the SFP port of the EtherREGEN. The SFP port on the EtherREGEN is gigabit ONLY. The RJ45 jack on the FMC IS compatible with any of the 5 RJ45 jacks on the EtherREGEN.

 

The 4 jacks on one side are all 10/100/1000, the single port on the other side is just 100. The SFP port is JUST gigabit no matter what the SFP module is.

 

John S.

Thanks John (and Alex for your additional clarification). 

 

So I can connect any of the RJ45 ports on the EtherREGEN to the RPi ok. Kewl.

 

AND if I got a gigabit optical FMC, I could use that to connect to the optical port, correct? 

 

Not sure if it'll be worth it, just checking.

 

Greg

 

[Bernstein]

Would the EtherRegen isolate in such a way, that Ethernet cable differences are negligible on clean side? Lack of isolation is one of the biggest reasons that we can hear differences in cables....

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, gstew said:

So I can connect any of the RJ45 ports on the EtherREGEN to the RPi ok. Kewl.

Yep.

7 minutes ago, gstew said:

AND if I got a gigabit optical FMC, I could use that to connect to the optical port, correct? 

Yep.

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

Would the EtherRegen isolate in such a way, that Ethernet cable differences are negligible on clean side? Lack of isolation is one of the biggest reasons that we can hear differences in cables....

 

Setting aside that we are avoiding the term "clean side" (as the design is rather symmetrical), potential cable differences will be lessened on the upstream side of the isolation moat.  That is opposite of the downstream side you are calling the "clean side."  

The point being that what comes before the isolation--and final clocking "out" to the DAC-connected device--is what will matter much less.  But the cable from that--typically the lone 'B"-side port--will be the one that still matters.  Hence we suggest keeping the EtherREGEN close to the DAC-connected Ethernet renderer (or Ethernet DAC) and using a short, high-quality cable for that connection.

[kennyb123]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Setting aside that we are avoiding the term "clean side" (as the design is rather symmetrical), potential cable differences will be lessened on the upstream side of the isolation moat.  That is opposite of the downstream side you are calling the "clean side."  

The point being that what comes before the isolation--and final clocking "out" to the DAC-connected device--is what will matter much less.  But the cable from that--typically the lone 'B"-side port--will be the one that still matters.  Hence we suggest keeping the EtherREGEN close to the DAC-connected Ethernet renderer (or Ethernet DAC) and using a short, high-quality cable for that connection.

 

It makes perfect sense to avoid the term “clean side” when viewed from the perspective of the EtherREGEN.  It’s agnostic as you’ve described. I think it’s going to be tougher for the rest of us to abandon the terms “clean side” and “dirty side” when we view things from the perspective of our networks. On one side of the EtherREGEN will be simply my streamer.  On the other side will be the rest of my network, which has all kinds of noise being dumped onto it.  The goal of adding to EtherREGEN is to create a “clean side” (of my network) that’s isolated from the noisy “dirty side” (of my network).   

 

I think as long as folks are clear that it is their network that has the dirty/clean sides - and not specifically the EtherREGEN - that those terms can be helpful.  

[GryphonGuy]

What about the "General" network side versus the specialised "Audio" side?

 

Maybe EtherAUDIO or EtherMOAT might be a better name even though I understand the REGEN nomenclature and how it fits with other products on offer.

 

Regards

GG

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

What about the "General" network side versus the specialised "Audio" side?

The EtherREGEN is mostly symmetrical on both sides of its moat--same ultra-low-jitter clocking, differential flip-flops, ultra-low-noise regulators on everything--so there really is not a "General network side" and a "specialized Audio side." Just one side with more ports than the other, and our recommendation that the lone RJ-45 on the far side of the moat be connected to the whatever has the closest connection to the DAC (typically the endpoint renderer).

 

Quote

Maybe EtherAUDIO or EtherMOAT might be a better name even though I understand the REGEN nomenclature and how it fits with other products on offer.

Thanks but no thanks.  With separate Ethernet processors and separate data/power/clock domains, we feel that REGEN (short for "regenerate") is more descriptive.

And of course there is the fact that with nearly 5,000 REGENs (original USB REGEN and ISO REGEN versions combined) in the market--and our use of "regen" having attained a sort of a Kleenex or Q-Tip status--it would be foolish not to use it. 

 

[Superdad]

PROGRESS UPDATE:

 

The pre-production boards ship to John on Monday.  Here is a photo from our board house of the first populated board (sorry, I rubbed out the part markings of key chips; the dozen not rubbed out are the LT3042/45 regulators) ...

 

 

 

And here are the end-plate cutouts and graphics

:

 

 

Still much to be done, but we are inching closer!

[Superdad]

Lest anyone think the above is a "simple" switch:

You are looking at a boatload of innovative engineering and techniques never previously applied to an Ethernet switch.

And the board you see, in 250 unit runs, will cost us about $250 each--a full $200 of which are parts on the top of the board. Those 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter flip-flops, 600MHz LVDS isolators, clock synth, and pile of best-of-breed regulators don't come cheap!

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

Lest anyone think the above is a "simple" switch:

You are looking at a boatload of innovative engineering and techniques never previously applied to an Ethernet switch.

And the board you see, in 250 unit runs, will cost us about $250 each--a full $200 of which are parts on the top of the board. Those 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter flip-flops, 600MHz LVDS isolators, clock synth, and pile of best-of-breed regulators don't come cheap!

 

Impressive Alex - thanks for sharing.

 

But are we there yet, dad?

 

(ducking)

[Puma Cat]

Looking really good, Alex! Bet you're very pleased with how things are coming along. 

 

best,

Stephen aka PC

[thotdoc]

Congratulations on the progress.

[thotdoc]

When you have time, would you give more specific information about the need for an external clock, given the ER improves timing through its timing mechanisms.. 

 

Will you be recommending an external clock and specific cables? Will there be an upTone external clock?

 

BTW, looking at the case end mockups, one side says "B Port Output"...makes it seem like there is a  designated input and output pathway and my ( maybe mistaken understanding) is there is no set input and output pathway. 

 

Thank you

 

G

[pl_svn]

1 hour ago, thotdoc said:

looking at the case end mockups, one side says "B Port Output"

 

... what about "1Gb ports" and "10/100Mb port" instead, Alex?

[Superdad]

17 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

But are we there yet, dad?

Plenty of work still to be done. But if all goes well with these pre-production boards then real world testing can begin so that we can enter full production in just a few weeks.  Crossing our fingers...

 

John was going to be using the past several weeks wait time (while these boards were being built) to write the code for boot programming of the clock synthesizer and the Ethernet switch chip (you can see the two 6-pad TAG-connect spots on each side of the moat--where every board will be flashed in production). To facilitate this, about 6 weeks ago he built a circuit board with just the synthesizer, the tiny microprocessor he chose, and appropriate power supply parts.

 

Unfortunately he had to spend most of that time sorting out several arcane issues regarding getting the code to run after loading. So a lot of time was lost by the programmer (John) getting the programmer (the other boxes and boards we bought) to program the processors which in turn program the chips on start up.  It was very frustrating for him and required many nights of deep-dive into the data sheets of the processor as well as web forum searching. But in the end--just in the last three days--he discovered and overcame all three of the obstacles, so that now code loads and runs correctly. Hurrah!

 

Just last night he was able to begin writing and testing code for the clock synthesizer and switch chip. There really won't need to be a lot to it (he completed the Ethernet switch register settings research long ago), though the synth will load separate code sets depending upon if the little black switch next to the BNC jack is set to Internal or External.

 

 

15 hours ago, Puma Cat said:

Looking really good, Alex! Bet you're very pleased with how things are coming along. 

 

14 hours ago, thotdoc said:

Congratulations on the progress.

Thanks.  We are happy and optimistic. But truly all the credit goes to @JohnSwenson.  He supplies the brainpower, I supply the nervous sweaty palms and words of encouragement.  I NEVER loose faith in John, even when he has hit a wall. I forget how his wife phrased it last week when he felt he was stuck: Something to the effect of "Guess you are just not done yet." 

 

 

14 hours ago, thotdoc said:

When you have time, would you give more specific information about the need for an external clock, given the ER improves timing through its timing mechanisms.

An external reference clock is NOT required to get stellar performance from the EtherREGEN! 

It already has built-in the lowest-phase-noise production oscillator on the market (at least one where the OEM cost is not hundreds of dollars!)--positioned within millimeters of the chips that use it.  Plus virtually all the clock lines on the board are run as differential pairs--including across the moat--and the ultra-low jitter differential flip-flops we use are unparalleled in the world.  So real-world jitter is going to be far lower than any other switch with just a fancy clock board wired in. 

 

So why is there a BNC jack and support for an external 10MHz reference clock? Because it was easy to include (for probably a total of less than $10 more) as a competitive "checklist" item.  It is no secret that we are going to compete with the nearly 3x the price and 4x the size SOtM sNH-10G.  I'll skip all the in-our-favor technical advances comparison for now.  But since the SOtM sNH-10G has (if you pay the extra $200 and get the $1,700 version) a BNC for external clock; and since some of the enthusiasts here happen to have a fine expensive reference clock such as the Mutec REF10--it seemed like a good idea to include provision for that on the EtherREGEN.

 

Will use of an external clock with the EtherREGEN make any worthwhile sonic difference?  I have no earthly idea!  I guess some of you will find out.

 

Quote

Will you be recommending an external clock and specific cables?

Will there be an upTone external clock?

No and no.

 

Quote

BTW, looking at the case end mockups, one side says "B Port Output"...makes it seem like there is a  designated input and output pathway and my ( maybe mistaken understanding) is there is no set input and output pathway. 

You are correct about that.  But based both on the questions that have come up in this thread and on what will be typical usage for the average person, I decided to include the word "OUTPUT" above the 'B' side port. Consider it a preemptive attempt to reduce e-mails from people who don't read the User Guide. 

 

13 hours ago, pl_svn said:

... what about "1Gb ports" and "10/100Mb port" instead, Alex?

Thanks Paolo. Also considered. But I am trying to keep things simple and we really want people to read the User Guide. I am hoping that Calling them 'A' PORTS and 'B' PORT will encourage people to read the User Guide to see and understand about the two sides of the moat and how best to attached their components to the EtherREGEN. 

 

[Of course now you gents have me thinking about all the text and diagrams I need to create for the User Guide.  I have yet to write a word of it! ]

[thyname]

Thanks @Superdad for the super informative post. You and @JohnSwenson rock! Literally 

 

So is September a reasonable timeframe to expect first batch of etherRegen to be shipped?

[Superdad]

1 minute ago, thyname said:

Thanks @Superdad for the super informative post. You and @JohnSwenson rock! Literally.

Thanks.

 

1 minute ago, thyname said:

So is September a reasonable timeframe to expect first batch of etherRegen to be shipped?

Ask me that 10 days from now. 

[Bernstein]

@Superdad @JohnSwenson

I wish you the strength and smartness to overcome all obstacles. I think it is remarkable how you inform us here in detail about every step, issue and success. 

Keep up the great work! 

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

 

I wish you the strength and smartness to overcome all obstacles.

Thanks!

4 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

I think it is remarkable how you inform us here in detail about every step, issue and success. 

Well I enjoy it and know that our clients do too. Plus this is a great way for me to procrastinate all the other work I should be doing! (Where's that new UpTone website? How about replying to those press inquires Alex?) 

 

Yet seriously: Our openness, about the tech and the process is a key element of my brand philosophy. That, combined with ethical behavior and responsive customer support, are surely contributors to the warmth and loyalty we feel from all of you.  Awesome performing groundbreaking products are of course the largest factor!

 

Have a great weekend everyone...

--Alex C.

[JohnSwenson]

The quote from my wife was:

 

"since it always works out in the end, if it's not working, it's not the end!"

 

John S.