EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[jnhb]

Glued to this thread, can't wait for the release. 

[Superdad]

2 minutes ago, jnhb said:

Glued to this thread, can't wait for the release. 

 

That makes two of us.  Or two hundred of us!  

[so-no-mah]

Make that 201...

 

Andy

[BlueDL]

On 5/24/2019 at 2:10 AM, Superdad said:

 

Not yet.  The current working EtherREGEN board set is too delicate to even move far on his bench.   And the power networks on that working unit are far from what is going onto the board he is laying out now.  Much more will be shown and experimented with once the real preproduction boards are in our hands.  

 

And while he and I--and maybe a few lucky beta testers--will have one, I'd rather leave it to others to say how much they do or don't hear with an upgraded PS versus the stock SMPS we will be shipping it with.  I mean really, pretty much every EtherREGEN buyer will already have some sort of nice LPS on hand to try it with--be it an UltraCap or some other.

But you knew that...

So, just to confirm, if an LPS-1 is used, the DC output barrel (5.5/2.1) will need to be connected to source mains earth, as this is effectively how the supplied SMPS will be wired? 

Earlier in the thread, you touched on this - so forgive me if I’m going over old ground.

[JohnSwenson]

12 hours ago, BlueDL said:

So, just to confirm, if an LPS-1 is used, the DC output barrel (5.5/2.1) will need to be connected to source mains earth, as this is effectively how the supplied SMPS will be wired? 

Earlier in the thread, you touched on this - so forgive me if I’m going over old ground.

There will be a "ground screw" on the back of the EtherREGEN which you can use to attach an external ground wire if you desire and are using a power supply where the output negative is not connected to ground.

 

You may not need a ground connection in all cases. The ground is necessary to "shunt" high impedance leakage coming in on an RJ45 jack. The isolation circuitry going across the "moat", from A side to B side is quite good but not quite perfect when it comes to high impedance leakage. Doing the grounding thing drops the high impedance leakage by at least 60dB which in combination with the circuitry means no detectable leakage at all on the B side. The circuitry alone (no grounding) is probably enough in many situations, but knowing audiophiles many will want to do the grounding anyway.

 

The primary reason for the grounding is connections going from one jack to another on the 4 port side (the A side), without it high impedance leakage current freely goes from one jack to another. With the grounding the leakage between ports is drastically reduced.

 

It is important to understand what I mean by "grounding". It is NOT "earthing" (ie a ground rod). It means a connection the safety ground in your house wiring.  (the third prong in the plug) This works because the safety ground is connected to the neutral of the AC mains, this is what allows it to shunt the leakage current, NOT any "earthing".

 

In summary you may not need the grounding, but you might. There is no way to tell in advance, you need to try it both ways and listen for yourself. If your power supply output is not grounded you can use the "ground screw" to hook up a connection to your safety ground.

 

John S.

[BlueDL]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

There will be a "ground screw" on the back of the EtherREGEN which you can use to attach an external ground wire if you desire and are using a power supply where the output negative is not connected to ground.

 

You may not need a ground connection in all cases. The ground is necessary to "shunt" high impedance leakage coming in on an RJ45 jack. The isolation circuitry going across the "moat", from A side to B side is quite good but not quite perfect when it comes to high impedance leakage. Doing the grounding thing drops the high impedance leakage by at least 60dB which in combination with the circuitry means no detectable leakage at all on the B side. The circuitry alone (no grounding) is probably enough in many situations, but knowing audiophiles many will want to do the grounding anyway.

 

The primary reason for the grounding is connections going from one jack to another on the 4 port side (the A side), without it high impedance leakage current freely goes from one jack to another. With the grounding the leakage between ports is drastically reduced.

 

It is important to understand what I mean by "grounding". It is NOT "earthing" (ie a ground rod). It means a connection the safety ground in your house wiring.  (the third prong in the plug) This works because the safety ground is connected to the neutral of the AC mains, this is what allows it to shunt the leakage current, NOT any "earthing".

 

In summary you may not need the grounding, but you might. There is no way to tell in advance, you need to try it both ways and listen for yourself. If your power supply output is not grounded you can use the "ground screw" to hook up a connection to your safety ground.

 

John S.

Thanks John for the thorough explanation.

I guess I’ll need to try the SMPS vs LPS-1 comparison first, as that may avoid the need to use a socket solely for a grounding plug (there are no free wall sockets and only one free on the power strip next to my audio rig!).

[JohnSwenson]

24 minutes ago, BlueDL said:

Thanks John for the thorough explanation.

I guess I’ll need to try the SMPS vs LPS-1 comparison first, as that may avoid the need to use a socket solely for a grounding plug (there are no free wall sockets and only one free on the power strip next to my audio rig!).

If you are using all 4 RJ45 ports on the A side an LPS-1 is not going to supply enough power. An LPS-1.2 WILL when set to 12V. If just using 1 port an LPS-1 MIGHT work, we won't know for sure until we get back the board I'm laying out right now which has everything that will be on the final board.

 

John S.

[BlueDL]

7 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

If you are using all 4 RJ45 ports on the A side an LPS-1 is not going to supply enough power. An LPS-1.2 WILL when set to 12V. If just using 1 port an LPS-1 MIGHT work, we won't know for sure until we get back the board I'm laying out right now which has everything that will be on the final board.

 

John S.

Well, fortunately, I’m currently using an LPS-1.2 to power my Netgear switch at 9V, so I’m ready to ‘switch’ to the EtherREGEN. Lame!.......sorry

 

I’ll compare the SMPS with an LPS-1.2 without ground connection and finally an LPS-1.2 with a ground connection.

The A side will have an optical feed from an FMC at the router end and a wired connection to my Sonictransporter, with the microrendu being connected to the ‘special’ port. I guess the upgrade path will be to go wired into the ‘special’ port (via second FMC) then optical (A side) into an OpticalRendu. Maybe use of an OpticalModule from the special port into an OpticalRendu is the strived-for utopia, but I’ll look out for feedback from others long before I get the go-ahead from the ‘domestic treasury’ !

 

Sorry to mention the Sonore products, but they seem to be the ideal companions to partner the EtherREGEN, at least at the moment.

[R1200CL]

7 hours ago, BlueDL said:

Maybe use of an OpticalModule from the special port into an OpticalRendu is the strived-for utopia

 

There may be other ways into nirvana 😀

But I’m quite sure, involving John S design in one way or another will bring you there. 

[lateboomer]

10 hours ago, BlueDL said:

The A side will have an optical feed from an FMC at the router end and a wired connection to my Sonictransporter, with the microrendu being connected to the ‘special’ port. I guess the upgrade path will be to go wired into the ‘special’ port (via second FMC) then optical (A side) into an OpticalRendu. Maybe use of an OpticalModule from the special port into an OpticalRendu is the strived-for utopia, but I’ll look out for feedback from others long before I get the go-ahead from the ‘domestic treasury’ 

I think if the wire comes out from the special port and goes into the normal fmc before going into OR will bring down the performance. It is because fmc is using cheap components and cheap clock. You should consider the clean side is coming out from the optical port of EtherRegen and going into OR to see the difference. 

[BlueDL]

4 hours ago, lateboomer said:

I think if the wire comes out from the special port and goes into the normal fmc before going into OR will bring down the performance. It is because fmc is using cheap components and cheap clock. You should consider the clean side is coming out from the optical port of EtherRegen and going into OR to see the difference. 

Hi. The scenario I described uses the clean port to feed (wired) the microrendu (no FMC here). The optical connection is made on the other side of the moat and its signal is derived from the router. At the router end, although an OpticalModule is probably the best option, I see nothing wrong in using a standard FMC to connect to duplex LC Multimode OM1 or OM2 fibre (at an eighth the price). Sure, if I were to use an FMC between the EtherREGEN and an OpticalRendu in future, it would need to be an OpticalModule fed with a clean 5V - agreed.

[R1200CL]

25 minutes ago, BlueDL said:

Sure, if I were to use an FMC between the EtherREGEN and an OpticalRendu in future, it would need to be an OpticalModule fed with a clean 5V - agreed.

 

This doesn’t make sense. Between EtherRegen and opticalRendu, you only need a fiber wire. 

[BlueDL]

9 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

This doesn’t make sense. Between EtherRegen and opticalRendu, you only need a fiber wire. 

Agreed.

There is, however, a comparison to be made between going direct optical into the OR vs using the clean wired port into the OR via an OM (FMC).

I wouldn’t have mentioned it had I not been responding to the previous post, as I believe that using the clean port as an ‘input’ (perhaps from the music server for best results, but either that or the router feed) and the optical port as output (when using an OR) should be enough. My post (a couple above) actually states this is where I hope to upgrade to at some future point.

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, BlueDL said:

There is, however, a comparison to be made between going direct optical into the OR vs using the clean wired port into the OR via an OM (FMC).

 

Sounds like a expensive test. And all said in this thread indicates you will loose the effects of the EtherRegen and only have the effects of the OM left, as your signal can’t be better than your last device in the chain.

You may on a good day, achieve something with two EtherRegen, but I doubt it. 

 

Also your dream about using your LPS-1.2 and a opticalRendu may not be so straightforward. You must as a start be 100% sure you don’t need Vbus power to have a good chance to succeed. Or purchase the JS-2. (I may do myself 😀)

 

Adding a IsoRegen to your MicroRendu will most likely have the same effect as purchasing an UltraRendu. And that is a cheap upgrade, well worth test out, as I think you can return it. 

 

And the big question is then, after adding the EtherRegen to the system, will adding a opticaRendu make it worth the cost, and any difference in SQ at all.

 

 

[nonesup]

On 6/1/2019 at 5:41 AM, JohnSwenson said:

 

 

It is important to understand what I mean by "grounding". It is NOT "earthing" (ie a ground rod). It means a connection the safety ground in your house wiring.  (the third prong in the plug) This works because the safety ground is connected to the neutral of the AC mains, this is what allows it to shunt the leakage current, NOT any "earthing".

 

John S.

Hi John.  

I do not have a great knowledge of electricity, but in different forums talking about "grounding", I have read that the technical specifications with which electrical networks are designed in the USA and in Europe are different.  

My question is;  With a Schuko connector, the metal side strips that make "grounding" would work just like the third hole in the USA connector?

[R1200CL]

@nonesup

Earth or ground is the same all over the wold. Well almost. But if you’re not living in Norway or Albania, don’t bother 😀

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

 

Yes, the third hole as the UK or US sockets have, is the same function as that “metal stripe”. 

 

And to add som confusing the the subject, have some fun understanding this. 

[nonesup]

Well, what I would like to confirm is that in Europe, what John indicated for USA is also fulfilled: The safety ground is connected to the neutral of the AC mains, this is what it allows to shunt the leakage current, NOT any "earthing"  .

[BlueDL]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

 

Sounds like a expensive test. And all said in this thread indicates you will loose the effects of the EtherRegen and only have the effects of the OM left, as your signal can’t be better than your last device in the chain.

You may on a good day, achieve something with two EtherRegen, but I doubt it. 

 

Also your dream about using your LPS-1.2 and a opticalRendu may not be so straightforward. You must as a start be 100% sure you don’t need Vbus power to have a good chance to succeed. Or purchase the JS-2. (I may do myself 😀)

 

Adding a IsoRegen to your MicroRendu will most likely have the same effect as purchasing an UltraRendu. And that is a cheap upgrade, well worth test out, as I think you can return it. 

 

And the big question is then, after adding the EtherRegen to the system, will adding a opticaRendu make it worth the cost, and any difference in SQ at all.

 

 

I use an LPS-1 to power the uR in my existing set-up; this then feeds a Holo Audio Spring via a modded Singxer SU-1. I assume the same set-up would work with the uR replaced by an OR in the future.

If I decide to upgrade before considering the step to an OR, there is a good chance that UltraRendus will be available on the used market - although I acknowledge your comment about an IsoRegen being cost effective.

Also, you’ve reminded me that the optical feed from the EtherREGEN is probably going to be better implemented than the conversion within the OM, so yes, it does seem to defeat the object doing anything other than going ‘optical direct’ into an OR.

[R1200CL]

23 minutes ago, BlueDL said:

I assume the same set-up would work with the uR replaced by an OR in the future.

 

Now the fun starts.

We have to do this in another thread. Please read Rendu support thread, and optical module thread for last week posts. And also my latest post the LPS-1/1.2 thread.

You can also PM me. 

[JohnSwenson]

17 hours ago, BlueDL said:

Hi. The scenario I described uses the clean port to feed (wired) the microrendu (no FMC here). The optical connection is made on the other side of the moat and its signal is derived from the router. At the router end, although an OpticalModule is probably the best option, I see nothing wrong in using a standard FMC to connect to duplex LC Multimode OM1 or OM2 fibre (at an eighth the price). Sure, if I were to use an FMC between the EtherREGEN and an OpticalRendu in future, it would need to be an OpticalModule fed with a clean 5V - agreed.

If you have the RJ45 on the B side (the single jack) connected to a streamer, what you do on the A side shouldn't matter. Thus coming into the A side with optical shouldn't make any difference. If you already have an optical network connection, use the optical input. The other use is if you have a renderer with an optical input you can use the EtherRegen the other way around and connect the optical port to the renderer  and the single RJ45 to the network.

 

John S.

[BlueDL]

11 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

If you have the RJ45 on the B side (the single jack) connected to a streamer, what you do on the A side shouldn't matter. Thus coming into the A side with optical shouldn't make any difference. If you already have an optical network connection, use the optical input. The other use is if you have a renderer with an optical input you can use the EtherRegen the other way around and connect the optical port to the renderer  and the single RJ45 to the network.

 

John S.

Thanks John. Yes, as I already have an optical feed from the router, I’ll be channelling into the EtherREGEN’s optical SFP port and outputting to a microrendu via the single RJ45. The upgrade path will be to swap that around one day.

Sorry if it’s already been stated earlier, but will the EtherREGEN come with an SFP Mini-GBIC transceiver (presumably duplex Multimode LC Type) already fitted, or is the onus on the end user to purchase one separately? Cheers.

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, BlueDL said:

Sorry if it’s already been stated earlier, but will the EtherREGEN come with an SFP Mini-GBIC transceiver (presumably duplex Multimode LC Type) already fitted, or is the onus on the end user to purchase one separately? Cheers.

 

Since the majority if EtherREGEN users will likely not be using an optical connection (little if any advantage versus copper due to our sophisticated design), we are not planning to include an SFP module.  Most Ethernet switches with SFP cages do not include the module—probably because they need to be matched at both ends.

 

Also, given that our bill-of-materials cost for the EtherRegen is already eating well into our usual modest profit margin (assuming we hold to our $600 target retail price), adding another $25-30 for an SFP optical transceiver is something we plan to avoid.  I might stock a few dozen—of one type—so people will find it convenient to order. Or we may just provide links to some modest-price choices on Amazon or elsewhere.

[BlueDL]

34 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Since the majority if EtherREGEN users will likely not be using an optical connection (little if any advantage versus copper due to our sophisticated design), we are not planning to include an SFP module.  Most Ethernet switches with SFP cages do not include the module—probably because they need to be matched at both ends.

 

Also, given that our bill-of-materials cost for the EtherRegen is already eating well into our usual modest profit margin (assuming we hold to our $600 target retail price), adding another $25-30 for an SFP optical transceiver is something we plan to avoid.  I might stock a few dozen—of one type—so people will find it convenient to order. Or we may just provide links to some modest-price choices on Amazon or elsewhere.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

For me, it’s more about getting the recommended transceiver than there being any bonus inclusion in the package you’re offering. But as you stated, it’s a simple case of getting matched transceivers at the two ends with LC connectivity and gigabit capability (not 100MBps), and you make a valid point that there will be potential buyers who already have established optical solutions (with transceiver choice already made).

 

[Puma Cat]

On 6/3/2019 at 8:32 AM, Superdad said:

 

Since the majority if EtherREGEN users will likely not be using an optical connection (little if any advantage versus copper due to our sophisticated design), we are not planning to include an SFP module.  Most Ethernet switches with SFP cages do not include the module—probably because they need to be matched at both ends.

 

Also, given that our bill-of-materials cost for the EtherRegen is already eating well into our usual modest profit margin (assuming we hold to our $600 target retail price), adding another $25-30 for an SFP optical transceiver is something we plan to avoid.  I might stock a few dozen—of one type—so people will find it convenient to order. Or we may just provide links to some modest-price choices on Amazon or elsewhere.

Dang. I was hoping there'd be an SFP dock on the EtherREGEN; my unorthodox configuration requirements means I need an Ethernet switch in front of (that is, ahead of) of my upstream FMC. Guess I can still use the "audiophile" RJ45 output jack on the EtherREGEN for connecting to my current upstream FMC. 

[incus]

4 minutes ago, Puma Cat said:

Dang. I was hoping there'd be an SFP dock on the EtherREGEN; my unorthodox configuration requirements means I need an Ethernet switch in front of (that is, ahead of) of my upstream FMC. Guess I can still use the "audiophile" RJ45 output jack on the EtherREGEN for connecting to my current upstream FMC. 

That's not what he said. He said no module. There is still a "dock." You will just have to source your own module.