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EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]


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18 minutes ago, Davidny said:

Perhaps you should call the single port, the “dedicated port” since that port is dedicated to sending the cleanest signal to your dac or renderer. 

 

Perfect, thanks!  

If you do order an EtherREGEN--once we launch--remind me that it was you who suggested this and I'll give you free shipping (via a rebate). :D

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I was going to suggest you mark it “100”, and the others “1G”.

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I vote "Dedicated" as well since it makes it unambiguous.  Even if you color code items, you're bound to run into some color blind problems.  'Course there's no International signage for dedicated...(maybe an arrow out while the others are arrow in?).  Not even certain that is "true" to the nature of the connections.  Ah well...

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2 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

I vote "Dedicated" as well since it makes it unambiguous.  Even if you color code items, you're bound to run into some color blind problems.  'Course there's no International signage for dedicated...(maybe an arrow out while the others are arrow in?).  Not even certain that is "true" to the nature of the connections.  Ah well...

 

The problem is that the EtherRegen or the OpticalModule works both ways. As an FMC.  (It doesn’t matter what way you choose to be input or output). 

 

So what’s dedicated, as a naming convention, presumable will work for most people isn’t going to work for all. 

 

So keep it simple:

Front and rear of the EtherRegen, and it doesn’t matter which’s is defining as front and rear will both have the same purpose. (At least if only one port in use). 

 

Hope I didn’t add confusion 😀

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4 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Yes the port that is on the side with the power inlet, LED etc is 100Mbs.

 

About naming:

Well, I think just name it something that includes 100 Mbs. 

 

Well, maybe not, what will happen when the EtherRegen MK II is out, and all ports is 1Gbs. 😀

 

Maybe a new acronym starting with JS..

 

....or just let the user guide and Uptone website explain. 

There is actually a limit to how many ways the EtherRegen can be used, since you have to use that 100RJ45 one way or another in order to make the “magic” happens. 

(You have to use both sides). 

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

it doesn’t matter which’s is defining as front and rear will both have the same purpose

Alex, is this true? Is the etherregen power quality the same on both sides? Please don't answer if this is meant to be secret.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Alex, is this true? Is the etherregen power quality the same on both sides?

 

It's not like you to post such an unclear question Larry. :P

 

"Power quality?"  I mean we can discuss the various power networks throughout the EtherREGEN, including the 10+ LT3042/45 regulators being used to supply 22 chip voltage inputs.  

Or we can discuss the symmetricality of the data domains and how jitter reduction and clocking is accomplished.

 

So please rephrase and tell us what you are most interested in. :D

Thanks,

--Alex.

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4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Alex, is this true? Is the etherregen power quality the same on both sides? Please don't answer if this is meant to be secret.

 

Are you trying to confuse us with PoE 😀

 

(You may go back and read some previous in this tread)

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12 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

It's not like you to post such an unclear question Larry. :P

 

"Power quality?"  I mean we can discuss the various power networks throughout the EtherREGEN, including the 10+ LT3042/45 regulators being used to supply 22 chip voltage inputs.  

Or we can discuss the symmetricality of the data domains and how jitter reduction and clocking is accomplished.

 

So please rephrase and tell us what you are most interested in. :D

Thanks,

--Alex.

Well yes, power quality is what I am after. The claim was that the EtherRegen was symmetric suggesting one side was as clean as the other. As I understand there is one power input, and there is galvanic isolation from one side to the other, I was curious if power quality is the same on both sides.

 

In other words, if I connect two devices, will it matter which side faces the DAC vs. the other?

 

Thinking further, and power aside, is the clocking symmetric?

 

I appreciate that this is mostly theoretical as no one has heard the EtherRegen yet. Some of this may be proprietary as well.

U

Is the question clear now? 😎

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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11 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Well yes, power quality is what I am after. The claim was that the EtherRegen was symmetric suggesting one side was as clean as the other. As I understand there is one power input, and there is galvanic isolation from one side to the other, I was curious if power quality is the same on both sides.

 

In other words, if I connect two devices, will it matter which side faces the DAC vs. the other?

 

Thinking further, and power aside, is the clocking symmetric?

 

I appreciate that this is mostly theoretical as no one has heard the ISO Regen yet. Some of this may be proprietary as well.

 

+1

 

I have been wondering the same. I certainly formed an impression during earlier discussions that the two sides of the isolation boundary were symmetric. Perhaps I misunderstood? I've not been following the back and forth in detail.

 

The scenario I'm thinking of is where the router attaches to the single port side, and then the other side has multiple clean ports for server, endpoint, etc?

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That's really the big question isn't it?  Is the moat effective enough that you only want a single terminal device (end point) connected to the single port side, with everything upstream no longer mattering, or is there an advantage to have multiple devices on the "clean" side?

 

Can't wait to hear real world experience with this topology!

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1 hour ago, lmitche said:

In other words, if I connect two devices, will it matter which side faces the DAC vs. the other?

I love Larry's experimental approach to everything.  A while back, he told me he got a new outboard motor for his boat.  I suggested he should try mounting it at the bow rather than the stern to see if it worked better that way. 🙄

 

Larry's unconventional methods have given us some really valuable insights.  I just like to kid him about it.

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I run the risk of exposing my lack of understanding (again) but...

I can understand the 'moat' principle operating irrespective of orientation, if only two devices are attached (across the two sides)

But if the 'clean port' is attached to the router and all other devices are attached to the other side (upstream?) i can't see the benefit being fully utilised.

 

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2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Well yes, power quality is what I am after. The claim was that the EtherRegen was symmetric suggesting one side was as clean as the other. As I understand there is one power input, and there is galvanic isolation from one side to the other, I was curious if power quality is the same on both sides.

 

Well every single chip of the EtherREGEN is fed (1 to 3 voltages) from either an LT3042 or LT3045--there are about $60 (our cost in high volume) of ultra-low-noise regulators in this thing!  So yes, power quality is the same on both sides.  

 

And yes, while we do have to put the power across the "moat" with a isolated DC-DC switching regulator (not to be confused with an SMPS!), John has chosen a very high performance new part for this--one with extremely low capacitance (2.1pF !, so low leakage) and a switching frequency twice what is typical (so extremely easy to filter).  Plus he is fine tuning that filtering (with scope, spectrum analyzer, spice simulations, and trials) and again that 5V going across the moat is then feeding 4 other LT3042/45 LDOs.

 

Trust me, if there is one thing John knows (and he knows many things that make my pea-brain hurt) it's how to design really clean power networks. B| For those that don't know, John's day job for 30 years was designing the power networks INSIDE processor chips--large and small--in special custom divisions of LSI Logic/Avago/Broadcom.

 

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

In other words, if I connect two devices, will it matter which side faces the DAC vs. the other?

 

Based on the topology, if connecting just one Ethernet cable on each side, whatever difference is heard turning it one way or the other should be exceedingly small.

 

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thinking further, and power aside, is the clocking symmetric?

 

Very much so.  And not just the clocking, but the Ethernet processors we put on each side of the isolators, the 10GHz-capable ultra-low-jitter differential flip-flops, the LVDS>SE clock buffer chips--they are all mirrored on both sides.  

It is much easier to grasp looking at a block diagram of the design, but the diagram I did (for our internal use to plan all the regulators and for my own comprehension when discussing) has part numbers and reveals too much to publish. Though somewhere upstream I did post a small, blurry version. 

 

Oh my, look at the time.  Got to dash to FedEx with another 10 JS-2s going overseas. :D Cheers!

--AJC

 

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1 hour ago, rickca said:

I suggested he should try mounting it at the bow rather than the stern to see if it worked better that way🙄

 

Sometimes you just have look at nature too know what is the best solutions.

Dolphins for instance are power from the stern. 🤓

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4 hours ago, Frojo said:

But if the 'clean port' is attached to the router and all other devices are attached to the other side (upstream?) i can't see the benefit being fully utilised.

 

Well, that’s my understanding it is. And the beauty of that is you can attach a fiber optical device (endpoint) upstream as well 😀

 

The first early design of the EtherRegen was not “symmetrical”, and then there was a clean side. 

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6 hours ago, austinpop said:

The scenario I'm thinking of is where the router attaches to the single port side, and then the other side has multiple clean ports for server, endpoint, etc?

 

But what you really want to know is if those 4 ports on that single side can “pollute” each other. Correct ?

Given the symmetry is already there between the sides. 

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27 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

But what you really want to know is if those 4 ports on that single side can “pollute” each other. Correct ?

Given the symmetry is already there between the sides. 

If you have one NAS, one server and one endpoint, with bridging they can be connected in a linear fashion with no need for using more than two spokes on each side of the EtherRegen hub. One could of course use 3 etheregens between 1) router and Nas 2) Nas and server 3) server and endpoint. 😉

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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28 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

The first early design of the EtherRegen was not “symmetrical”, and then there was a clean side. 

 

That is correct.  I really need to update a number of things in the very first post of this thread. But hopefully it won't be too long before we start a fresh topic for the launch.  :D

 

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

But what you really want to know is if those 4 ports on that single side can “pollute” each other. Correct ?

Given the symmetry is already there between the sides. 

 

Well on the 4-port side (5 if you could the SFP in the 'A'-side domain), a lot of thought has gone into the choice of magnetics and the switch chip.  In the expensive 4-port module we chose, each RJ45 port has 12-cores, whereas lesser ones will have only 4, 6, or 8 cores. And the switch chip we chose is an ideal match as its built in PHYs are set up for separate capacitor-coupling to ground of the center-taps of each port.  So there is quite good port-to-port isolation, thus there will be very little transference--of any leakage currents coming in on the cables of other gear--between these ports.

 

As for the clocking, we think the final domain out to the DAC-connected streamer/renderer is the one that matters, hence the single 100Mbps port on the actively isolated  'B'-side. Ours is the only dual-clock-domain switch, so it can't really be compared to how others do things.

As I mentioned before, some people are cascading two SOtM switches at great expense to achieve the reduction of leakage, and phase-noise overlay on the clock and ground planes that we will deliver in one much smaller package. :)

 

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41 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

That is correct.  I really need to update a number of things in the very first post of this thread. But hopefully it won't be too long before we start a fresh topic for the launch.  :D

 

 

Well on the 4-port side (5 if you could the SFP in the 'A'-side domain), a lot of thought has gone into the choice of magnetics and the switch chip.  In the expensive 4-port module we chose, each RJ45 port has 12-cores, whereas lesser ones will have only 4, 6, or 8 cores. And the switch chip we chose is an ideal match as its built in PHYs are set up for separate capacitor-coupling to ground of the center-taps of each port.  So there is quite good port-to-port isolation, thus there will be very little transference--of any leakage currents coming in on the cables of other gear--between these ports.

 

As for the clocking, we think the final domain out to the DAC-connected streamer/renderer is the one that matters, hence the single 100Mbps port on the actively isolated  'B'-side. Ours is the only dual-clock-domain switch, so it can't really be compared to how others do things.

As I mentioned before, some people are cascading two SOtM switches at great expense to achieve the reduction of leakage, and phase-noise overlay on the clock and ground planes that we will deliver in one much smaller package. :)

 

 

Alex, I'm getting mixed messages here. Are the A and B side symmetric (in terms of SQ) or not? It sounds like you're saying that it's not, and for max performance/SQ,

  • the A side should be used for the upstream (router, upstream switch, bridged server, etc)
  • the single100Mbps port on the B side to the endpoint.

I recently posted a picture on another thread of my current setup, where I use 2 ports on what you would call the clean (or B) side: one to the endpoint/streamer, and one directly to the DAC. This enabled me to evaluate the benefit of the switch on an Ethernet DAC, and compare the Ethernet and USB inputs of the DAC, both paths benefiting from the switch. Here's the picture:

Audio-topology-qx5.png

 

My thought on how to replicate this with the EtherRegen - in the fulness of time! - was to reverse the A and B side: connect the upstream to the single port on the B side, and then connect the streamer and DAC in my picture to 2 of the 4 ports on the A side.

 

It sounds like that is bass-ackward and would be a suboptimal use of the EtherRegen.

 

Please clarify?

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37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I recently posted a picture on another thread of my current setup, where I use 2 ports on what you would call the clean (or B) side: one to the endpoint/streamer, and one directly to the DAC.

 

Except that with the SOtM in your diagram there is not really an isolated, separately reclocked "clean" side in the way there is with the EtherREGEN. You are all in one domain.

 

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

My thought on how to replicate this with the EtherRegen - in the fulness of time! - was to reverse the A and B side: connect the upstream to the single port on the B side, and then connect the streamer and DAC in my picture to 2 of the 4 ports on the A side.

 

Sure, that's fine.  I suppose it remains to be seen to what if any extent two endpoints (your NUC and the Ethernet input of the Ayre DAC) could affect one another by being together on one side.  But other than that, the two sides of the moat are of as equal in excellence as we can make them. I don't know how else to say it/prove it short of punishing the schematic. 9_9

 

And if someone like you with a Mutec Ref10 or other ultra-low-phase noise 10MHz external clock wants to run that into the EtherREGEN's BNC port, that clock will become the reference driving the Silicon Labs clock synthesizer for the entire EtherREGEN--both sides that is. (Your Ref10 is driving an older SilLabs synth also, but there is only one domain in their switch.  It's funny, because the giant sCLK-EX board in their switch has 4 outputs, but they use only one.)

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