EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Puma Cat]

On 6/3/2019 at 8:32 AM, Superdad said:

 

Since the majority if EtherREGEN users will likely not be using an optical connection (little if any advantage versus copper due to our sophisticated design), we are not planning to include an SFP module.  Most Ethernet switches with SFP cages do not include the module—probably because they need to be matched at both ends.

 

Also, given that our bill-of-materials cost for the EtherRegen is already eating well into our usual modest profit margin (assuming we hold to our $600 target retail price), adding another $25-30 for an SFP optical transceiver is something we plan to avoid.  I might stock a few dozen—of one type—so people will find it convenient to order. Or we may just provide links to some modest-price choices on Amazon or elsewhere.

Dang. I was hoping there'd be an SFP dock on the EtherREGEN; my unorthodox configuration requirements means I need an Ethernet switch in front of (that is, ahead of) of my upstream FMC. Guess I can still use the "audiophile" RJ45 output jack on the EtherREGEN for connecting to my current upstream FMC. 

[Puma Cat]

26 minutes ago, incus said:

That's not what he said. He said no module. There is still a "dock." You will just have to source your own module.

That's great news, thanks for the information; I missed that, scanning too fast!  

 

I will just use the SystemOptique specified SFP Optical Transceiver I just received today. 

 

Thank you very much for the info. 

[Puma Cat]

13 minutes ago, pas said:

7-12

Cool, then I could use my LPS-1 if I wanted to, then. 

[Puma Cat]

Looking really good, Alex! Bet you're very pleased with how things are coming along. 

 

best,

Stephen aka PC

[Puma Cat]

On 8/10/2019 at 11:21 AM, kennyb123 said:

 

Looking at the specs Shunyata has published for their Ethernet cables, it appears the only difference is the number of CMode modules.  Venom has 0, Alpha has 1 and Sigma has 2.  The EtherRegen should lessen (or eliminate?) the need for any common mode filtering.  It’ll be interesting to hear if the differences between their three Ethernet cables vanish when used with the EtherRegen.

I've used all three of the new Shunyata Ethernet cables extensively: Venom, Alpha and Sigma, and the impact of the CN filter can be very clearly heard; the degree of noise reduction by one CN is noticeable over the Venom, and the 2 CN filters lower the noise floor by more than 2X over the 1 CN filter in the Alpha. Whether the use of the EtherREGEN will completely obviate the clearly audible benefits and reduciton in noise from the CN filters remains to be seen (or rather heard), but my hypothesis is that it will not. The reason are that you can never completely eliminate noise, you can only suppress it to some degree; and more is better noise suppression is better than less. Given the degree of the reduction of the noise floor I heard between the Alpha & Sigma cables, my guess one would hear a reduction in noise using EtherREGEN with an Ethernet cable, and an even lower noise floor using EtherREGEN with a Shunyata Alpha or Sigma Ethernet cable. 

 

Also, the terminations matter: the first set of Sigmas I had used Belden metal RJ45 connectors; about a week after I received them, Shunyata contacted me and said they had found an even better ultra-trick Telegartner connector and they were sending me a revised Sigma cable with this new connector. They said it sounded better than the Belden one that was initially used. Once I received it, I replaced the original Sigma I had with a Sigma with the new Telegartner connector, and indeed, it was better-sounding; more open, organic and natural-sounding. It also has a better strain relief. 

 

IIRC, the Venom and Alpha use a plastic Belden RJ45 connector (these were chosen because they sound better than the other connectors tested), the Sigma uses this new trick Telegartner RJ45 connector. 

 

Just a note: I evaluated a number of other cables at the time I was evaluating the Shunyata Venom, Alpha and Sigma: the Audioquest Cinnamon, the Audioquest Vodka, the Supra Cat 8 and the Wireworld Starlight Cat8, and the "entry-level" Shunyata Venom Ethernet was better than all of the others in virtually all attributes one would care to consider and by a considerable margin. The other cables weren't even in the same zip code. 

 

 

[Puma Cat]

I  may have missed it in the posts above, but is there a voltage spec for powering the EtherREGEN yet? 

 

I'm hoping my LPS-1 will power it,  but my guess is it will require about 9V. 

[Puma Cat]

On 8/21/2019 at 9:43 AM, Superdad said:

 

Yes, the EtherREGEN does include one Gigabit SFP port.  But use of it is not necessary to keep "noise/interference" out because all the unique advancements included--using active differential isolators and dual-domain clocking/data/power--should isolate the copper ports from upstream elements just as well as fiber.  

 

My apologies to everyone: All the design features, benefits, and tech explanations--including some diagrams--really need to be gathered together soon. As a starter for a new launch thread, and on a web page for the EtherREGEN. People should not have to dig through a 50 page thread to find all of what we have said (though searching for just my and @JohnSwenson's long posts will reveal a lot).  Even the first post of this thread desperately needs updating.

 

 

7~12V +DC.

 

 

EtherREGEN will draw more current at 7V than at 12V.  So while the UltraCap LPS-1.2 (which users can set to 12V/1.1A) will work fine, the original UltraCap LPS-1, with top voltage of 7V/1.1A will not have enough current. Sorry, we did try hard to make it possible, but there are a LOT of chips to power.

Thanks, Alex, appreciate the info. 

[Puma Cat]

On 9/18/2019 at 2:42 PM, simon_pepper said:

 

Yes, you should run Product Beta testing in a private invitational only group, and may be not even on audiophilestyle.com, away from the public market forums.

You want feedback and issue raised out of sight of the market, not you are hiding issues, but a Beta testing is still part of the product development process, and the feedback from initial field trials are for you, to understand operations, resolve any found issues and finesse the product prior to market launch & introduction.

 

I have used ‘customer feedback sessions’ at the end of a Sprint cycle to gain input for future Springs, with ‘Show and Tell’ sessions and the customers were part of an invited ‘Customer Council’.

 

You could run a private Slack channel or Google Hangout chat or even a Skype Group chat to solicit the feedback from your testers, so everyone seeing the comments from the group.

Anyway good luck with this exciting phase of Product development as you prepare for launch.

Simon

Well said. I was going to chime in and support Alex on the premise that the input from beta testers should be for internal, development use only, but you nailed it, Simon! 

 

 

[Puma Cat]

20 hours ago, Superdad said:

What a day...   BETA-TEST UNITS HAVE SHIPPED!!  

Here's a pic of a few of them.

Congrats, Alex and John! 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, Foggie said:

Ummm, well I will add that optical has a lot going for it, especially with its inherent isolation and wouldn't be too quick to discount it.  Additionally its a hell of a lot easier to route, manage and its not expensive. 

 

There is a difference between optical and ethernet sound-wise IME and really comes down to preference / system specific.  I'll take optical, which is what I ran to listening room.

Fully agree on all points. Optical is not only inexpensive, its downright cheap, as well as robust and a piece of cake to route as its thin, light and flexible. Its also has very low insertion loss, and is very quiet, immune to RFI & EMI, and provides galvanic isolation and will not pass leakage currents. 

 

It also sounds really good. 

[Puma Cat]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:06 AM, sicher said:

Hello,

 

every now and then I am tempted to upgrade my naim system. (-:

 

Some days ago my dealer recommended the AQ-Switch SE to me. Looking for more information I found the EtherREGEN which looks very promising and appealing to me. There’s much I like about it - from the philosophy behind it to the open discussion about its design and the obvious know how and experience of the developers. 

 

So I wonder if someone could please summarise the differences between those two.

 

Actually I am looking for arguments to wait for the EtherREGEN instead of going for the AQ-Switch SE right now. 😉

 

Thanks a lot,

Michael 

Its going to sound better. It was designed from the ground up by an engineer with 30+ years of industry experience to do this.  The AQ-Vox switch is a modification of an existing IT-based product, a D-link switch. 

 

And the EtherREGEN will cost ~30% less. 

[Puma Cat]

14 hours ago, rickca said:

I don't know any other designer of audio components that would disclose that level of detail.  

Me, neither. I would certainly like to know exactly what clock is utilized in some other digital streaming products I own and use.... (cough, cough). It's shows that Alex has full faith in the design of his product and the value they provide that he can provide this level of detail.

 

And, he's standing by his commitment to full transparency...

[Puma Cat]

20 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I know. I must be a fool. 

 

Of course the above does not include the special-ordered Crystek CCHD-575 XO, the case, the 3 heatsinks, the custom-mixed thermal interface silicone, the included SMPS, $1 stainless steel grounding thumb-screw, flash/test/assembly labor, John's per unit royalty, and the average $25 per PayPal/credit card fees we absorb and don't charge our customers. Not counting the labor portion, all that other stuff brings total cost up to about $380 per EtherREGEN. 

So if we stay somewhat small, with not too many employees, I can make a decent living (and put something aside for a "someday" retirement). But not going to become a megalith organization with a whole Sales & Marketing staff. Personal choice.

 

Make no mistake though:

John and I have some VERY ambitious projects/products planned out for the next several years. (Don't ask; I won't tell.) Each of these will draw heavily on the cash capital that builds up from the prior successes. Thus what people may not realize is that their EtherREGEN purchases this year will fuel the R&D and production of more very cool and innovative UpTone products for the coming years. 

"NO ME-TOO ENGINEERING" is our motto!

For consideration: an Uptone Audio bespoke digital word clock with say, two 75 ohm outputs, so we can use it for our EtherREGENs and network bridges? 😜

 

 

[Puma Cat]

25 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

I don't know about others on this forum, but sometimes I feel that with Uptone I'm part of a "Kickstarter" movement 😀 without any downsides (I've been burned by one Indiegogo campaign or two).  Helping Alex and John lead the way to great, new, bleeding edge tech solutions.

You don't even want to know what it was like dealing with GNAR, Inc. to receive the Kickstarter-funded GNARBOX 2.0 Wifi-enabled ruggedized hard drive that I won in a contest in October last year, Steve. They shipped...9.5 months after the originally promised date.

 

Alex & John managed expectations in a much more professional and experienced manner, only publicly releasing a launch date when he could provide an accurate prediction with minimal variance. 

 

That's the difference between two estblished professionals with >30 years of hard-won industry & business experience vs. a very immature startup that only released 1 product before. 

 

Okay, back on topic. 

[Puma Cat]

16 hours ago, Superdad said:

Busy days, but soon to get MUCH busier!

Found enough extra correct screws from UltraCap stock for my assistant to assemble the fronts of about 50 EtherREGEN cases.  The rest of the screws (along with 250 overdue UltraCap cases so we can clear back-orders next week) arrive tomorrow. 

 

Here are some pics, including a newly assembled dozen of JS-2s waiting for me to test/heat-soak, and the flash and test station set up for EtherREGEN production.

[And for those who have not seen our shop photos before: Yes, that is ping-pong table.  It is our largest and most productive work surface; I designed the entire work-flow of the space around it. Once in a while we clear it off, lift off the protective boards, and play a game or two. Mostly during the holidays when the kids come home.]

 

I'm about halfway done writing the User Guide, and given that it is only Wednesday I feel pretty darn good about how this week has gone (though it feels like it should be Friday ).

 

Love the use of the ping-pong table! It reminds me of the LEAN manufacturing cells we used at work for oligonucleotide production. "Flow" is good...

[Puma Cat]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I am big into efficiency and assembly line procedues.  Just due to the various steps: Unpacking and laying out boards and attaching heat sinks, flashing with code both ‘A’ and ‘B’ side microprocessors, testing each board, assembling cases and inserting board, wrapping, kitting, producing shipping labels and commercial invoices (for overseas shipments), making sure special order Instructions are minded, etc.—and due to space constraints, it really is more practical to do all this working towards a couple of consecutive big shipping days.

It’s fun to drive up to the back of the post office and wheel their large carts over to load... Did this a lot in the past with REGEN and UltraCap launches.

 

 

Just waiting for the first 245 boards to arrive on about the 29th.

The programming/test station is all set up and verified.  My assistant has cleared her schedule and commited to the hours.  The custom-mixed specialty thermal interface adhesive for the heat sinks arrives late next week.  Honestly, short of something horrible like the boards not working (not likely since they are virtually the same as what passed the beta cycle with flying colorrs), there really is nothing keeping us from hitting our targets.  

Actually, we will be attempting to ship out 85 units to our dealers about one week ahead of the promised November 15th direct-sale first batch date.  Focus, focus, focus... 

Cool. Sounds like you're doing some heijunka (leveling) in a LEAN process. All good. 

[Puma Cat]

4 hours ago, Jud said:

The reason I smiled is because this gave me an image of a couple hundred EtherREGEN customers (I’m one) thinking “Yes! What are the hurdles to shipping my unit *right now*?!”  🙂

LOL. Near as I can tell, there aren't any hurdles...Alex is has got his mfg. process all mapped out to create flow and maximize the value-stream. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Thanks to a boatload of detailed suggestions from the very sharp @Puma Cat--combined with a bit more patience and a fresh look--I went through the entire User Guide again this whole afternoon.

This is the link to revised version.  Not a world of change, just a lot of rephrasing for clarity, etc.

Onward. 

Glad that it was of help for you and the gang, Alex. Cheers. 

[Puma Cat]

Wow, the questions are getting complicated...I feel for Alex and admire his patience in trying to answer a multitude of configuration questions.

 

I like Alex's and k-man's recommendation: play around with different configurations and use the one that sounds best. 

 

 

[Puma Cat]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Indy Dan,

 

Good idea! Hey Alex, please cover the EtherRegen with a bit of whipped cream before taking pictures please.

What would Herb Alpert say? 😆

[Puma Cat]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

I’m leaving in the morning for a long weekend with my wife in the eastern Sierras 

I gotcha covered, Alex! 

South Tufa, Mono Lake, Lee Vining, Eastern Sierra. Fujifilm X-Pro1 & 14mm f/2.8

[Puma Cat]

FWIW, I found that my OpticalModule definitely needed some burn-in, and was nicely "settled" after about 72 hours. I just put the music server on continuous play and had Roon stream content through it for three days. Another 24 hours just put icing on the cake, and its been smooth sailing, er, streaming from there. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, thyname said:

 

I am very curious to read that paper when it is published. And possibly share it over at Audio Science forums (AmirM), if someone is brave enough to do so and not get slaughtered 🙂 They keep measuring cheap $50 china DACs and find no differences with the $10K SOTA DACs. So they all should sound the same 😉

Don't get me started on those guys. Even within the strict confines of their "schtick", they don't know how to conduct a scientifically controlled experiment in the context of "real-world" use, and furthermore, they've not done a formal MSA (measurement systems analysis) prior to the measurements they take. Without an MSA in place before taking measurements, there is no way to know that their measurement system has sufficient precision to observe real differences from noise (all data sets contain noise, some contain signals) and make statistically valid inferences, if there are differences. For example, they don't know what their smallest effective measurement increment is, they don't know what the "% Contribution" of their MS is, and they don't know anything about the "part" (i.e., DAC) x Operator interaction. 

[Puma Cat]

21 hours ago, thyname said:

Are you talking about the Audio Science Reviews? Amir’s crowd?

 

Thats inevitable. Someone will send the EtherRegen to those jerks. But who cares. We already know what they will say even before they “measure” it.

Actually, they've already been "saying it". Goes to show how specious the entire premise of the site/forum is: they've already been stating unequivocally there can't possibly be any audible benefits using a bespoke-for-audio-applications Ethernet switch in the complete absence of any...data. What a group; talk about hypocrisy. Reminds me of a quote I read in an old issue of Stereo Review from the late 50s or early 60s on the American Radio History site by one of the editors (Julian Hirsch, maybe?) that there was this "group of conspirator reviewers" going around and reviewing amps of the time and saying they sounded "different" even though they measured exactly the same. It was probably J. Gordon Holt! Heresy! Ha ha! 😝 I'll see if I can find the link...

[Puma Cat]

Any more news on the white paper? I would love to be able to use it as a reference when requested, when I recommend the ER and its innovative design and features in other audio forums.