EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[stevebythebay]

Hope the unit’s female RJ45 accepts the higher end connectors, often found on AudioQuest and WireWorld Ethernet cables. I know that my cable, using a Metz male plug, has trouble locking in place in some switches, and needs some home-brew work to stay in place when plugged into my Roon Nucleus. 

[stevebythebay]

In the absense of my bringing over a couple of these for testing, wherever that’s happening, I guess I’ll just have to await getting the EtherREGEN in my system. 

[stevebythebay]

“There are hundreds (really thousands) of people who have demonstrated to their own ears the effect of improved clocking of devices either directly or far upstream of their DAC.  Yet there is a vocal minority of skeptics who claims that because they can not measure those effects (with current top-line analysis equipment such as Audio Precision) at the output of the DAC, then all the rest of us must be delusional and throwing our money away on "snake oil" products to fix non-existent problems. Boy would I love to throw water on those folks. “

 

Absolutely agree.  Adding a dCS Clock to my existing Upsampler and DAC, with top end clock cables, made a big difference.  Really eager to add the EtherREGEN to provide my Roon Nucleus the best transport. 

[stevebythebay]

I vote "Dedicated" as well since it makes it unambiguous.  Even if you color code items, you're bound to run into some color blind problems.  'Course there's no International signage for dedicated...(maybe an arrow out while the others are arrow in?).  Not even certain that is "true" to the nature of the connections.  Ah well...

[stevebythebay]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 I’m in bed with a couple of cracked ribs—from a stupid biking accident on Sunday—very painful, so I’ll be brief:

We’ve been talking about the key differentiating and unique features of our EtherREGEN since the beginning. Here is post that covers a good deal of them—and in relation to competing products as well.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-we-are-getting-much-closer/?do=findComment&comment=965263

The key point in answer to your question is that no other Ethernet switches have ANY clock isolation. 

We format the data so that it can go back and forth over a “moat” via a high-speed, low-jitter, differential isolator—followed by fantastically low-jitter flip-flops on both sides.

 

Now the Ethernet chips (and the flip-flops) on both sides of the moat need clocks—which have to be synchronous—so we dedicate a second of the same advanced active isolator chip to pass the clocks into the two domains. 

 

Of course for the above data and clock isolation to be in effect, all the power planes must be galvanically isolated into two domains as well. And they are.  

 

Study the photo of the board that we posted and you will see all of the above.  This dual, isolated domain data/power/clocking topology is completely unique to the EtherREGEN. And we believe it will result in the elimination of the effects of upstream jitter/phase-noise (which may be heard not because of jitter in the data—Ethernet does not mind that—but because of the effect on power planes; John is testing this and his hypothesis is deeper than what I am saying here).

 

That’s all I can type on my phone for now. Time to change the ice pack on my rib cage. 

Really sorry to hear.  I did that on a bike a number of years ago (along with a collapsed lung).  Didn’t even know it at the time (finished my remaining 25 miles on the ride).  Took a few days till pain/breathing issues got me to my doctor for any X-ray.  Recovery was slow.  

 

Just take your time.

[stevebythebay]

Really, really hope the pain is diminishing. My biggest issue, and I didn’t have nearly your trauma, was putting my car’s stick shift in reverse. Lots of time spent trying to avoid parallel parking. 

 

If anyone doesn’t think their choice of Ethernet cables is inconsequential,  just try some different designs in your system setup.

 

I finally got my hands on a couple of Shunyata’s, a new cable design. It ran rings around my existing WireWorld Platinum and Starlight 8 cables, in/out of the Cisco 2960 switch.  Needless to say, I’ve put a couple of these on order. 

 

Really looking forward to the EtherREGEN to see how much farther my system can go.

[stevebythebay]

3 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Are you referring to the Sigma or Alpha?  I will be purchasing one of these, but am waiting first for the EtherRegen, as I will use it between this and my Zenith.  Like you, I’m looking forward to seeing how much further these two moves will take my system.  

Used both the Sigma and Alpha in my config.  The Sigma (in lieu of a WireWorld Platinum Starlight 8) and the Alpha (for the Starlight 8) both of the WireWorld are their initial product (not the newer ones).  Been using them with a Cisco 2960 switch.  Based on a quick test of half a dozen albums I've order a pair of the Sigma's.  What I've found is that you really don't want to mix differing technologies -- the WireWorld is Cat8 (shielded) untwisted flat design with the Shunyata Cat6a unshielded type with a traditional type configuration.  They seem to work against each other, or at least diminish the intended results.  That's what I discovered when initially swapping just the Sigma for the Platinum.  Better but nothing like adding the Alpha into the mix.

[stevebythebay]

Agree that the EtherREGEN will provide benefits. What is unclear is what other factors, apart from any noise which enters the switch, will affect the ultimate data stream. Between the switch and the target DAC there remains at minimum the Ethernet cable, of variable length, subject to design approaches, connectors, various Categories (likely from Cat 5-8), most unshielded but some shielded, etc.  And the environment surround the cable may factor in (RFI / EMF / whatever).  

 

What I’d hope is that for similar cable designs used into/out of the EtherREGEN the noise brought in would dissolve on its way out, preserving whatever attributes the cables might offer, be they good or ill, for the downstream system.  

 

But the proof will be in the “pudding”.

[stevebythebay]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Pardon me gents, but any further discussion of Ethernet cables will result in my creating a new topic and transferring all such posts over there.  (I am sure there is an existing Ethernet cable thread somewhere, but my forum moderation capability is limited to moving posts to other topics within the UpTone sponsored area.)

Thanks! 

Sorry I sorta’ started this off-topic thread within a thread.  But I felt at the time, and still feel, the importance in all connections in/out of any switch in eventual sound quality.  Please fork this off with the other Ethernet cable bits if you wish. 

 

The Shunyata’s actually focus is on reducing transmission and phase distortion, including high frequency noise distortion.  

 

While awaiting the EtherREGEN, and now the Shunyata cables, I’ve had recourse to plug a Transparent TPM into my system wall plug 

 

https://www.transparentcable.com/collections/power-add-on-surge-protection/products/plug-in-network-protector 

 

connecting the outbound cable from my Cisco 2960 to this device and sending the cleaned-up signal on its way to my dCS gear. It has reduced noise from the upstream path. I’ve no idea if I’d perceive any benefit in using it once I have the Shunyata’s in place. 

 

[stevebythebay]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You really need to be patient, and purchase the EtherRegen 😀

(Or even two)

 

Have been and will continue to be patient. My experiences with a number of switches, including my current Cisco, have shown that with both my use of the Transparent device and recent experience with Shunyata Ethernet cables, these switches are clearly producing noise.  So, I fully expect a degree of benefit from the EtherREGEN. 

[stevebythebay]

Ah but then it’s time to tune the room itself.  Of late, while awaiting the EtherREGEN, that’s what I’ve been doing. It’s a fairly consequential aspect of getting the most out of our systems I’m afraid. 

[stevebythebay]

And on a separate note: how’s your recovery going?  I know ribs can take a long time to fully heal. 

[stevebythebay]

Great news Alex!  And unlike the fact that this is happening on the very same day as MicroSoft patch Tuesday (batten down the hatches boys and girls), we'll all be looking forward to getting in line for the EtherREGEN.

[stevebythebay]

ADIM indeed.  Expect that streaming from the ‘net (Radio Paradise, JB, Rondo, etc.), apart from local sources, will see an important benefit from the ADIM as well. 

[stevebythebay]

5 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

R1200CL has given you a good advise.

 

John S. mentions the cables to and from the ER. If I recall correctly, CAT6, but nothing special,. it shouldn't be grounded from the ER to the target (meaning, avoid metallic RJ45).

 

In general, exotic digital cables offer no sonic advantage, but certainly lighten your wallet, some costing more than the ER itself...Still, some people swear by them, but mostly fail every AB/X. I'd say, get a well constructed bulk CAT6, a bag of RJ45 terminators and plastic boots, a crimp tool and teach yourself how to put those cables together. Hint: super easy! The cables will come out inexpensive, cut to size and boost your pride of ownership.

 

** Out of respect to this thread, no reply to any proponent of high-end cables **  

 

 

 

I'll be testing out the new EtherREGEN next month with a few cables.  I'm not expecting much compared to my existing switch, since the two Ethernet cables I'm already using are loaded with common mode filtering, along with much higher characteristics for transfer. 

 

My advice is to try cables in your system once you deploy the EtherREGEN and see if/where they may make any significant difference.  Stick with a single company's technology, as I've found mixing things often defeats benefits of one design (did so with Audioquest, Wireworld, etc.).  Shielded vs. unshielded and Cat6 vs. Cat7 vs. Cat8 can screw things up as well.  Most important of all connections seems to be from the switch to the DAC (or whatever is first element downstream of the switch).

[stevebythebay]

I'm writing this to promote clarity for prospective customers.  I know many of us on this forum like to dive into the weeds, but I'm an old sales/marketing guy so....

 

You've listed the two goals that the EtherREGEN is designed to dramatically decrease: leakage and clock-phase noise.  From the Uptone web page (sales) and other bits I've read on the forum I think I understand the clock-phase noise issue, and that this will be handled by the "moat", but I don't see much about the leakage issue. 

 

I think I recall the leakage issue has to do with all the upstream power related high and low source impedance leakage from all digital source devices plugged into the switch, and across all the A side ports as well.  A bit more on that would be nice on the sales page.

 

And it might be worthwhile to also include the bits about EMI/RFI shielding that are also being featured in the switch.  I think this was alluded to some time ago on the forum.

 

Maybe you can beef up the description on the Uptone web page for the EtherREGEN.  I suspect many of us on the forum, and others who will come to that sales page to understand why they should be considering using the EtherREGEN vs. other options, both targeted for general use as well as the audio realm, could use more information, and a clear argument as to just how these elements actually surface themselves in the playback of our music system -- what are the notable symptoms? 

 

Will it result in less "noise" in the system, greater "clarity", a lower "noise floor", more space around instruments/singers, greater width/depth of musical space, etc?  We all know you're not in the business of over hyping any of your products, but I certainly want to see this as a huge success.  And getting it into the hands of appropriate reviewers is important as networking of musical bits is taking over physical media as a source.

 

No deep dive needed on how the sausage is made, just what the problems are, that they're being addressed, and the results to be expected when using the EtherREGEN.  As you state on the initial description on the page "producing surprising audible sonic improvements in fine music systems."

[stevebythebay]

The EtherREGEN, like all alternative switches, does not live in some sort of vacuum.  All Ethernet cables move bits, but are potentially affected and effect what gets delivered to the switch and beyond. 

 

The EtherRegen's design is to mitigate known problems that other switches fail to address.  But the resulting transfer of "music" is only as good as all the links in the chain. 

 

Poorly designed and executed cables can generate signal distortion (phase issues from impedance irregularities).  That's beyond the common mode noise suppression which the EtherREGEN handles through the painstaking design and execution that John's developed.

The great thing about the EtherREGEN is the degree of isolation among all the ports and especially across the moat.  And minimizing leakage and clock phase noise will certainly go far. 

 

Yet getting the bits in and our of the switch without inducing any corruption, epecially following the switch matters.

[stevebythebay]

I don't know about others on this forum, but sometimes I feel that with Uptone I'm part of a "Kickstarter" movement 😀 without any downsides (I've been burned by one Indiegogo campaign or two).  Helping Alex and John lead the way to great, new, bleeding edge tech solutions.

[stevebythebay]

Quick question that's probably been asked before but will the JS-2 be capable of supporting both the EtherRegen and the Roon Nucleus at the same time? 

[stevebythebay]

My current and planned setup is:

 

Roon Nucleus - Shunyata Ethernet - Cisco 2960 switch - Shunyata Ethernet - dCS Vivaldi Upsampler - etc....

 

I'd thought to use the A side of the EtherREGEN for both the Nucleus and my wired WiFi Access Point (Eero mesh unit) and the B side into the dCS.

 

As an aside, the power supply shipped with the Nucleus as well as the Eero are plugged into a Shunyata DPC-6 (designed to mitigate noise from digital devices). 

 

I'd heard good things about using the JS-2 for the Nucleus and hoped it would be suitable for the EtherREGEN as well.  I'm trying to minimize the number of separate units in the system, while improving the SQ of the whole.

[stevebythebay]

Really tempting, but I'd rather wait till I have the EtherREGEN in house, in order to assess its performance over my existing switch, as step 1.  If it makes a significant difference in my system, then I'll entertain bringing in a JS-2, to see if it also lowers any "noise" or other less obvious issues related to AC-DC that are masking the music in some way.

[stevebythebay]

Please stay safe...no more broken ribs...or anything else!

[stevebythebay]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sure is! 

Almost all the EtherREGEN circuit boards for the first run have arrived. In the morning we’ll begin spreading them out and adhering the heat sinks with the custom-mixed thermal compound, then flashing the microprocessors, testing, etc.  Busy weeks ahead. I’ll post pics as we go.

 

To prepare for the work ahead, I took a relaxing few days away with my dear wife. Some hiking, some meditating, some nice BBQ, and some fine wine and rye. The fall colors were lovely, as was the weather—until our departure this morning, when the temperature dropped, the wind came up, and it began to snow.

 

Now that’s the way to get reenergized. 

[stevebythebay]

Maybe someone can enlighten us all about cable lengths. My understanding is that 1.5M is the ideal short length of typically mass produced cables to avoid signal wave reflections (return) affects. Apparently 1M is problematic due to the timing of the wave return.  However, I’ll readily admit this was prevalent in the early days of Ethernet, when transmitting devices were far less mature and had trouble making sense of propagation signal origin. 
 

I’ve seen this also come up with HDMI in the video realm, though I’m uncertain how such things work with, say USB or other interface designs. 

[stevebythebay]

Just wondering, given the level and number of components, complexity of the design (all that clocking and voltage regulation), and board depth, have you or others found that there’s any change in performance as the EtherREGEN “settles in”?