EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Bernstein]

On 7/1/2019 at 4:17 PM, Superdad said:

 

As previouly indicated, the pre-production boards are due to arrive to us this week.  Would be tomorrow except that the wonderful (and pricey) LT3042/45 regulators are in short supply (we use 12 per board) and are just now arriving to our board house.

You can bet we will keep everyone posted.  Expect to see photos of the board even before we begin final testing.

Some pictures would be nice

[Bernstein]

@Superdad

Do you have sind picture or concept pics of the outside?

What is the heat dissipation of the unit? Can it used in a closed enclosure (cabinet). 

[Bernstein]

1 minute ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

The enclosure has been mentioned many a time here:

Identical to the LPS-1.2

 

You’re right! I was just curious to know how the inputs are located etc. 

[Bernstein]

Would the EtherRegen isolate in such a way, that Ethernet cable differences are negligible on clean side? Lack of isolation is one of the biggest reasons that we can hear differences in cables....

[Bernstein]

@Superdad @JohnSwenson

I wish you the strength and smartness to overcome all obstacles. I think it is remarkable how you inform us here in detail about every step, issue and success. 

Keep up the great work! 

[Bernstein]

@Superdad

 

Is there an estimated price range for the EtherRegen? 

Just a best guess would suffice 😄 

 

Greetings from Munich 

Selim 

[Bernstein]

@Superdad Good: consider it my Christmas present, even not celebrating it 😆 

Just wondering looking at the design and the idea behind it: Does John Swenson work for a server / semiconductor company? Reminds of my time designing signal paths/clocks etc...

[Bernstein]

@Superdad after the "clock wave" a down to earth question  

If I put the EtherRegen in a closed metal box (ca. 40x15x20cm) with only a sloth backside for ventilation: Would it work "risk free"? Today I have a TP Link switch in it and it doesn't generate heat at all, considering it only needs 9V/0,1A. 

 

[Bernstein]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 I’m in bed with a couple of cracked ribs—from a stupid biking accident on Sunday—very painful, so I’ll be brief:

We’ve been talking about the key differentiating and unique features of our EtherREGEN since the beginning. Here is post that covers a good deal of them—and in relation to competing products as well.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-we-are-getting-much-closer/?do=findComment&comment=965263

The key point in answer to your question is that no other Ethernet switches have ANY clock isolation. 

We format the data so that it can go back and forth over a “moat” via a high-speed, low-jitter, differential isolator—followed by fantastically low-jitter flip-flops on both sides.

 

Now the Ethernet chips (and the flip-flops) on both sides of the moat need clocks—which have to be synchronous—so we dedicate a second of the same advanced active isolator chip to pass the clocks into the two domains. 

 

Of course for the above data and clock isolation to be in effect, all the power planes must be galvanically isolated into two domains as well. And they are.  

 

Study the photo of the board that we posted and you will see all of the above.  This dual, isolated domain data/power/clocking topology is completely unique to the EtherREGEN. And we believe it will result in the elimination of the effects of upstream jitter/phase-noise (which may be heard not because of jitter in the data—Ethernet does not mind that—but because of the effect on power planes; John is testing this and his hypothesis is deeper than what I am saying here).

 

That’s all I can type on my phone for now. Time to change the ice pack on my rib cage. 

Get well soon!!!

Sorry to hear!

[Bernstein]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

PROGRESS UPDATE:

 

Well as pretty and near-done the pre-production boards looked (see https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-we-are-getting-much-closer/?do=findComment&comment=973852), there are just too many hours under-the-microscope changes to make them viable for use in beta test or for us to risk going straight to production.  

 

Plus, John has decided to implement a complete new scheme for power-on sequencing of each main logic chip and the clocks. Certain parts need to be receiving a clock before they start, and some parts are best turned on after others to assure function in all situations.

We already have two very small microprocessors on the board. We will separately flash them during production with code for the clock synth and the switch chip on each side, so they will program those parts each time power is applied (then they turn themselves off to keep quiet).  There is plenty of extra code room in these processors, so John ran traces to reset pins on various parts and will write and tweak code to turn them on at just the right time. Quite elegant!

 

In addition, since this next (hopefully final) round of pre-production/beta boards are also for bench test, he decided to bring out to small via pads a variety of chip pins to make it easier for him to watch exactly what is going on between them. Most of the main logic parts we use have the tiniest of pins (a lot of them sort of tucked under), and getting a probe wire soldered to one--and then having it not break off--is an exercise in hours of frustration.

 

I found a few mechanical I/O parts movements and some interference stuff, so those got adjusted as well.  

Sent off the new board files and the very slightly revised BoM (Bill of Materials) to our board house this afternoon.  Should be able to get a very quick turn as all the parts have already been purchased (for more than 250 first units).  

Well, all but one. John realized he had left off (from the last boards) the terminating resistor for the external BNC clock. It only came up when I went to identify it for when we have a few boards made in production where the BNC jack and resistor are left off so we can accommodate special orders for 50 ohm clock input termination. I am glad he had left the resistor off because it gave me a chance to ask him to put it in an accessible spot and to make it larger than the grain-of-salt 0402 size we use for most resistors on the board.  I hate soldering 0402s by hand!

 

So while we are sad that the first pre-production/beta boards will just go in a scrap heap (a few $K investment), a lot of things, small and large, were learned from them, and implementing a proper, programmable chip reset sequence mechanism--versus having reset controllers everywhere--makes so much sense.  All the magic stuff--data and clocks flowing in the loops across the moat/isolators and into key logic parts and through the flip-flops--is working beautifully. (It should, because many prior months of work was already done!)

 

So really, aside from EtherREGEN being far more advanced than anything else out there, folks will really be getting a refined, second generation product right out of the gate! 

 

 

Will keep you all posted.

Have a great weekend,

--Alex C.

------------------

 

P.S. For those following my stupid bike-fall saga:

I finally had X-rays done yesterday, and yes it turns out I did fracture three ribs (#4,5,6 if I recall; not too much of a surprise as I heard the cracks when I landed!).  Then the doc insisted on a CT scan to be sure I did not puncture or partially collapse a lung. (Why they felt they had to pump me with heavy duty pain drugs to do it I have no idea. I hate that stuff and it makes me sick.) Anyway, after 4 hours in the emergency room until 11:00 p.m. last night, they gave me the news that nothing is serious--beyond the serious pain I have when I move around.  Amazing how much we use or torso for everything! They kept asking me my pain "level" on 1-10 scale.  It's zero, and then I make some normal movement and its an instant 11! 

I'm figuring it out (sleeping on a pad on the floor is the only bearable thing), and I know it will get better in time.  

So many thanks for your words of sympathy--but no more. It's music--and EtherREGEN time! 

 

Bunch of lovely freaks and brains! 

Does the Beta test involve actual user testing? 

[Bernstein]

7 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

It will once we have a small batch of boards which are fully functional.  User testing will be mostly to look for weird corner issues with people who have somewhat complex networks or applications—in case we need to adjust our programming of the main Ethernet switch chip (though it is field updatable via the microUSB port on the board).

Hmmm...my network is not that complex I think, but maybe having the EtherRegen in Germany could lead to some dizziness in its behaviour (due to beer and weisswurst spilled over it  ) which could lead  eventually to better SW and waterproofing...

[Bernstein]

9 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

Tell her you won it over for the time you waited for it...."It was free Honey, FREEEEE"

 

Normally I beta test “everything” so this will also work    

Everybody wants my feedback lalalala 

#futureFi-is-peace-with-your-wife-Fi 

 

PS: I think the development time is adequate to the attention of detail and very transparent due to the excellent communication. 

 

[Bernstein]

3 hours ago, Bones13 said:

I do apologize for saying November. You mentioned that the cases were arriving in October. Some one else said November - my mistake.

 

I was trying to refer to the development of the etherRegen as you have shared it with us. As a non-entrepreneur and non-electronic whiz, and a non-manufacturer, your work process seems very scary to me.

 

I don’t take much time off, and I’m only taking the three days of the Thanksgiving we off to be with my kids coming home for that period. It will also be a good time, for me, to give a good listen to any changes I might make in my system.

 

Again, I apologize if I ruffled any feathers.

 

I also have done development project several times. This is quiet normal from my experience! Important to know: when you have the board in your hand the reality check often shows something new. Ideally you can try to solve it with SW and/or live with compromises. This idealistic guys are obviously trying not to bring it to the customer ASAP and rather looking for ways to further refine it and extent the performance by going into more detail.

Additional beta testing by customers are also adding information about performance in the field! 

 

I am very confident of the way of working and impressed about the communication.  

[Bernstein]

Congrats! 🍾 

Tuning-wise the last (hopefully last) thing I will add to my system...

[Bernstein]

It's like an itching and all about EtherRegen...

[Bernstein]

2 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

A few pages page I gave a semi-formal announcement of US$625.  I'm going to do one final analysis, yet I think it will stay very close to that.

 

Our profit margin is actually very thin at that price. A very modest 2X total parts cost + John's royalty would dictate us pricing about $710.  

Since our products always sell in satisfying volume (close to 5,000 USB/ISO REGENs and 2,800 UltraCaps worldwide) without requiring any ad campaign or Sales/Marketing Manager (I wear that hat among five others! ), I think we'll do alright at a 42% margin (that's before taxes, office expenses, and my assistant's labor).

 

A lot of people--including a few business-savvy friends--think we should price our products higher. But I'd rather sell more units and spread the good sound around the world.  We'll leave the fancy cases and inflated prices to the firms that follow the path we blaze. 

 

Going strong Alex! We are here to support and listen... 😃

If you plan to go the Munich High End Show please let me know. 

[Bernstein]

Visit and meet people should be enough...

[Bernstein]

39 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Now back to EtherREGEN...

Received all the beta-test boards from John yesterday, put one in a case with the end plates I had machined locally, and I’m playing music!  Sounds terrific, but yesterday I was more focused on functionality testing and checking current, heat, and other things.  This weekend I will play and listen some more.

It’s been a long road—especially for John who discovered and overcame a huge number of untold engineering obstacles along the way. It has always been a serious endeavor, but having this very sophisticated little box isolating data in my own music system makes this project seem much more real. Oh happy day... 

 

Mouthwatering!

[Bernstein]

Thanks a lot @JohnSwenson

Coax is something I can’t really digest in a digital world...so your explanations make totally sense to either integrate a good clock inside the unit or to go the (impractical and expensive) way of developing something rather complex and without relying on proven standards. 

 

My understanding from the beginning is, that the clock input is needed to show the world: we can do it and we are comparable to other high end devices, but it isn’t necessarily needed. 

 

Looking at the future: I think the world needs a decent Roon Core from Uptone which can compete e.g. with the Antidote. Based on roon rock. I expect with your background you could redesign a mainboard and power supply to decrease noise a lot. 

[Bernstein]

Is there a technical difference driving the EtherRegen with 9V or 12V beside the different current? Maybe heat I guess...

[Bernstein]

2 minutes ago, McNulty said:

@Superdad: could you please share if during your tests the standard and upgraded power supply for your ER were connected to the same power distributor as the power cables of your other components, such as the DAC and the power amp?

 

The reason I ask is that even if the quality of the power supply would not influence the performance of the ER, the standard SMPS brick might 'contaminate' the power for other components if connected to the same power distributor.  

 

@Superdad This tells (almost) everything  

 

[Bernstein]

@Superdad

I want to operate the ER in a closed cabinet. Maybe a little sloth will provide air. How hot will it get? What is the temperature range? My (totally standard, stupid) switch today is running very low in temperature, but with all the IC in your unit I think it will produce a little more heat. 

[Bernstein]

15 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

They all received their units this past Saturday.  Functional reports have been perfect so far.  Beta-tester's reactions to the sonics have John and I grinning from ear-to-ear. And the level of their systems run the gamut from modest to SOTA.

 

John gave me the final minor BoM (bill-of-materials) revisions over the weekend, and this afternoon he is taking one last (out of 100) looks at the board files to be sure everything is perfect.  In the morning I will turn everything into our board house with the production order.  They already have all $60K+ of parts stock for the first run as I paid for all that months ago. The 4 additional capacitors that got added since the second round of beta are the same as one we already use 124 per board of, so no delay with that one.  John change the value of a few resistors to dim down both the power LED and the LEDs on the 'B'-side port (I hate bright LEDs), but those are tiny and totally generic so again, no delay added there.

 

That's all for now. 

The first order will feel like waiting for the Apple Store to open...lining up 😋 to the madness 😛

[Bernstein]

7 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 

If the product is half as good as your pre-sales marketing skills, then it should be a winner ...

Some KII folks looking for the last %   

[Bernstein]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

If Baconbrain gets one and says it improves SQ into the Kii Control, I'll be impressed. The USB input of the Control has, for me at least, sounded pretty much the same with various USB sources. Differences for me are very small if there are any at all. 

With EtherRegen we are talking Ethernet to e.g. a DAC or Streamer. There will be no direct connection to the KIIs.
I have a Roon endpoint (Allo DigiOne Signature) and looking forward to test it.