EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[DelsFan]

Having earned my Engineering degree (way back) in 1981, I'm sometimes lost when it comes to networking.  Please clarify if the EtherREGEN is "perfect" for my situation.  I am hoping to purchase a simple (but high quality, how does one do that?) modem, preferably with one "out", and no wireless capabilities, then potentially insert the EtherREGEN between that modem and my dedicated Cary DMS-500 streamer.  No NAS, no computers, anywhere.  Sometimes a CD player.

It seems this would be the ideal situation for the EtherREGEN.  One short Ethernet cable to my streamer and another (of "plain" quality) to my wireless router (and after that, who cares: from the wireless router (wired or not) to everything else).  As opposed to my current methodology: late at night remove from the digital chain the wireless router, and plug the Ethernet cable from my modem directly into my streamer.  All other users... should be asleep.  (For good measure, power the EtherREGEN and my modem with a linear power supply with two correctly sized outputs.)  The EtherREGEN "should" preclude deterioration of the signal going to my streamer, from any of the other five or ten devices also utilizing the internet.  And perhaps provide other benefits which I haven't yet heard described.

Viola!  Yes?

[DelsFan]

I have a high-end system, and music is normally steamed via TIDAL to a Cary DMS-500 Streamer.  System description below.  But just as thirty years ago, what I have in addition to the streamer is of little importance.  Back then, if you didn't have a good turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, it didn't matter what other equipment you had; NOW the quality of the data stream from the box outside my house (through a modem) to my streamer is the weak link in my system.  

 

Part of my system:

No computers, no NAS.  Sometimes I use my old Linn Genki CD player as a transport, but that is not pertinent to streaming.

I will employ a Mapleshade Samson V.5 equipment rack and various other vibration isolation devices. I have a dedicated mains line servicing nothing but the modem, streamer, and headphone amp (and sometimes the CD player).   If that circuit ever sees 1.5 amps I'll be surprised.  IsoTek Sirius IVO3 power conditioner.  As my system is still in the works: for listening I have a tube headphone amp I borrowed from a friend and HiFi Man HE-400i headphones.  Likely replacements: Blue Hawaii SE amplifier and Stax SR-009 headphones. 

 

(I called about having installed a second dedicated modem; but AT&T says they allow only one modem per household for residential customers.  I guess it would be possible to get a second modem, and service, from my local cable provider.  But without a bundle, I don't know if that would be worth an additional $60 to $70 per month.  Comparing the sound quality between the two would be enlightening though!  Sadly there is AT&T fiber around me, but not at my house.)

 

The question remains, will the EtherREGEN allow me to deliver one pristine signal to my streamer, while sending (and isolating) the data stream for the myriad other pieces of electronic equipment off to a wireless router... and beyond?

 

[DelsFan]

So, fifteen years ago I had a modem with a router built in (because it had one input and four outputs, so by definition it included a router); but being primitive it just wasn't a wireless router?

 

Looking up switch vs router now.  Although I have a niece working on her PhD in some sort of computer science; she presents papers in France and Spain and who knows where else, to some acclaim.  Maybe she is an under-utilized resource...

[DelsFan]

I thought I needed a switch because many people seem to think inserting one of the "better" ones between their router and streamer or computer increases sound quality.  I won't list examples.  However, the switch doesn't really isolate my streamer from the other five or ten devices in my home, which are also connected to the internet.

 

So although some switches might improve sound quality, if I am going to use any product similar in function to the EtherRENDU, incorporating a switch would be of little additional benefit?  I would use the EtherRENDU instead, as a device purpose built to increase sound quality, whereas some of the better switches just happen to provide a small increase, kind of by accident?

 

---------------------------

 

BUT, I also looked up modems, and there are modems with one connection to the outside world (via coax or RJ-45), but also only one RJ-45 output jack.  So, if I wanted to plug in my streamer directly to that modem, via one Ethernet cable, my streamer should work (? without a router); and the signal it receives should be "better" because none of my other equipment is interfering.  (My other pieces of equipment may be wondering what became of their access to the Internet, but they wouldn't be interfering with my streamer!)

This is what I am looking to do, isolate my streamer from everything else connected to the Internet (or each other) in my house.  Except somehow I have to give my other equipment access to the internet.  My preference would be for my streamer to NOT be part of the network in any way.

 

Edit:  Upon review, this is my goal in a nutshell, so let me say it again:

This is what I am looking to do, isolate my streamer from everything else connected to the Internet (or each other) in my house.  Except somehow I have to give my other equipment access to the internet.  My preference would be for my streamer to NOT be part of the network in any way.

[DelsFan]

I really appreciate your responses.  Let me ask one question, then we'll consider the case closed (assuming my conclusion below is essentially correct).  If I had a modem with one RJ-45 "output", and I connected my streamer to it with one Ethernet cable, would TIDAL communicate with my streamer?

 

Conclusion:

I thought my iPad was communicating with my streamer via Bluetooth.  But that isn't really based on anything - I need to find my owner's manual.

 

Yes, what you say is what I'm looking to do:  Provide my streamer with an Ethernet signal with optimal signal integrity.

 

I saw where the front and back panels of the EtherREGEN were described, but don't remember what I read. From your pretty simple explanation: to accomplish what I want to do efficiently and in great amounts I need a device like the EtherREGEN, designed to allow my streamer to be on the network but still be "isolated" from the potential problems caused from being so - rather than a switch, which might accidentally improve sound quality by a small amount.

[DelsFan]

21 hours ago, Dutch said:

@DelsFan, ...Since it is a network consisting of multiple devices full isolation is not what we want since then it is no longer a network. We need those devices communicating with each other and through our Internet router/modem with the Internet...

 

...So in your case I’d forget the word isolation and just think about what you want from a functional viewpoint...

 

 

Sorry, had to step away for 24 hours...

 

But other than my iPad (which in a high-end system "should" communicate with my streamer by Bluetooth), I DON'T want a network for my streamer; I want it isolated completely - I'd prefer to not have any signals passing back and forth through a router or switch that my streamer shares with everything else.  And I don't care too much about function; I still have a turntable with one button: it toggles on and off.  Only one speed.  Doesn't even pick up the "needle" when the record is done playing.  But for decades it was the best sounding turntable available... that didn't cost more than a car.  Some say Ethernet doesn't matter, everything else matters but not Ethernet; some say it's "perfect" (not so many people here).  In an interesting article one can read here, John Darko asserts:

 

"Everything matters – to some, a notion so obvious that it’s hardly worth the keyboard press. To others, [it is] a contentious proposition that results in calls for measurements and double-blind (ABX) testing..."

 

In his article he reviews a really expensive switch, but also comments the differences between a few Ethernet cables.  Which "should" sound the same, but unless many are deluded, don't.

 

For my situation:

I'm just saying, in my experience "everything" does matter.  Therefore, isolating my streamer from the remainder of my network "should" matter.  However, John makes another good point,

"Furthermore, I won't ask if you believe in audible differences between digital cables. The B-word suggests an unnecessary leap of faith that’s all too easily side-stepped by trying things out for yourself. Instead, I ask: have you experienced audible differences between digital cables? Because, y’know,   experience matters".

 

Since so few people even rely on a streamer, rather than their computer, I guess one way for me to find an answer to the question at hand, which is:

• Is there any negative impact from "everything else" on my network on the signal that reaches my streamer; or, does it not make any difference whatsoever whether I plug my streamer into a "naked" modem, or alternatively, the back of my all-in-one AT&T wireless modem/router with five or six other devices connected?

is to do the experiment myself.  Disconnect everything but the streamer from my "internet source" (hopefully a stand-alone modem) and listen; then see if I hear any difference from when I connect it back to the way it was before.  Maybe modems and routers and switches don't matter...   But I'd be surprised if that were the case. 

 

What a happy surprise to my pocketbook that would be though, if it proves true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DelsFan]

As someone with "only" a streamer, I'd like to know more too, since their fine USB products don't help me in my situation.  How much will the EtherREGEN really cost, and when can I order one if I wish to do so?

 

However,

I expect Alex and John probably like to eat, like the rest of us, but it seems they are in this business because they love it, and they love what they produce.  Therefore, I assume they haven't set a release date because they just (reasonably) can't.  Regardless of the reason - upgrading or field testing the design, testing more components, finishing reliability studies, or parts (or one part) not yet available in quantity - surely they'd rather move from the design phase, and all the myriad paths and decisions still available to them, to the "sell it" phase, where there are almost no decisions to be made anymore: just accept orders, ship products, and make sure they have enough parts coming in so they don't run out.  I'm sure they'd like nothing more this week than be able to start accepting orders (or pre-orders)!

 

So I'm trying to be patient.  Easier because my headphone amp is six weeks from arriving though...

 

 

[DelsFan]

13 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Well one thing I am fairly confident in restating is that EtherREGEN will sell for about $600 (+/- $25 should not matter to anyone)...

 

That is good to hear; I just emailed a guy telling him I'd budgeted $750...  Of course there is the matter of an upgrading to an LPS.  I have come and gone on this thread so I didn't remember, or know, what the recent estimate was.

 

As I said before, I'm sure everyone is doing all they can to get the EtherREGEN to market.  More and more people are taking up streaming daily, so there is a market for it and I'm sure you will be as excited for it to appear as we are.  In the end, what is good for you is good for us - it does none of us any good for the product to come out when in reality it is only "almost" ready.

 

You are very kind to give a concise update.

[DelsFan]

Ha! I was thinking the same thing...  GMT is OK; alternatively, do you (your State) avail yourself to daylight savings time?

 

Assuming a pre-sale occurrence before October, are you on PST or PDT?

 

And, great news, on you/your team overcoming one more hurdle on the way to getting an Ether REGEN into my system.

[DelsFan]

54 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Relax guys.  You know we will do our best to accommodate everyone.

I've been thinking about making the first run 250 units, but that would be pushing towards $100K cash in advance to our suppliers...

I am in full agreement; to many of us, what is good for you is good for us.  Those who think otherwise don't have to send you any money!   I'd be happy to send $$ based on:

 

You can send us $400 as partial payment for one example of the EtherREGEN, from our first production run.  We will send you a bill/email when we are nearing a point where we are ready to ship.  Although a target price, to which we will try to adhere, has been mentioned several times, we make no guarantee as to what the final price will be.   You know we are doing our best to get a quality product into production, but we offer no guarantee as to when that will be either.  Thank you for your interest in our product; and, if you send us a deposit we will gladly refund it at any time should you so desire.

 

Edit:

Superdad, I wrote this as you were posting.  Whatever works for you works for us!  I can see the efficiency of: you send us the entire amount and we'll ship you our product.

[DelsFan]

Sadly I'm not a networking person, so I have a question.  I use my iPad as a "remote control" for my DMS-500 Streamer - the iPad communicates with the Streamer via the wireless network.  I was hoping to isolate "everything" from the Streamer (to the extent of: I considered a "dedicated" internet supply with its own modem that serviced nothing but the Streamer) but it seems that isn't possible.

 

However, it seems I need to utilize the wireless network in order to use the Streamer (with the iPad, because using the Streamer's remote is cumbersome).  Will the EtherREGEN, used as shown in the diagram below, allow the wireless router (and the iPad) to talk to the Streamer?  I guess my question is: will the wireless router allow communication back "out" through its Ethernet "In" port?  Thanks very much for your assistance; if I need to go another direction I might as well start thinking about it now! 

 

I guess plan B would be to place the wireless router between the Modem and the EtherREGEN ?  Coming from an analog background, my instinct is to keep everything possible out of the path between the Modem and the Streamer!  Thus the layout shown in the diagram below, where the path from the box on the side of my house to the Streamer is as direct as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

[DelsFan]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

...Well I suppose I could have given a shorter answer to your question.  But hey, it's Saturday afternoon and I am procrastinating a tedious accounting/tax project. 

Hope everyone is having a lovely weekend,

--Alex C.

 

 

Gosh, we really are on the same wavelength.  This is the first year ever I've filed for an extension (for personal taxes) and my wife thinks I should be finishing up our return and getting it behind us.  Alternatively, I "need" to know how I am going to utilize a product that won't be delivered to my house for a least a month or two!

[DelsFan]

2 hours ago, Dutch said:

 

Hi Delsfan, this setup will absolutely work but you can view any ethernet port as both in and output port. You may confuse the single separate clock domain ‘isolated’ port on the etherregen as an out port as that port is advised to be connected to the ethernet device closest to your DAC. Functionally though it’ll operate as any other port on an etherregen or any other switch.

 

Thanks for your reply.  Does the same apply for the wireless router? 

I think my real question is:  Will the Streamer be allowed to communicate back and forth with the iPad, through the Wireless Router?  Isn't there usually some sort of security at the wireless router, and if the Streamer doesn't have the correct identification (password?) the Wireless Router won't allow the exchange of information with the "random" device upstream (in this case, the Streamer)?   Or is that security at the Modem?

 

[DelsFan]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Yes, 100 %  

 

Edit.

The router first after modem. 

 

Once you put the (by audiophile standards) piece of crap Wireless router between the modem and the EtherREGEN the signal is irreparably compromised.  I think... 

Not to mention, now we have a THIRD piece of equipment that "needs" an LPS to supply its current-ial needs.  😣

I wish to separate the wireless router from the modem because I think I can find a decent quality modem that won't degrade the signal too much.  I have no such confidence in finding an all-in-one modem/wireless router that won't negate thousands spent on other quality pieces of equipment.

 

Another advantage of the schematic I presented is there are only three cables required between the box on the outside of my house and the Streamer.  One long cable going under the house, in one piece, no connections or wall plates, connecting directly to my Modem.  One high-quality 1-meter Ethernet cable from the Modem to the EtherREGEN, and one last 1-meter Ethernet cable from the EtherREGEN to the Streamer.

 

In the schematic I presented earlier, I'm not worried about my Desktop Computer messing up the "sound" because: its digital signal is isolated by the EtherREGEN, the headphone system (including the LPS for the modem and EtherREGEN) is on its own dedicated mains circuit with its own power conditioner, and (from an electromagnetic standpoint) the Desktop is located fifteen feet away in the other corner of the room.

 

My niece is working on her PhD in computer science; presents papers/research (as a graduate student) at conventions in Europe (and America) all the time.  Wins awards.  (Understatement:) perhaps a tutorial from her is in order!

 

[DelsFan]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi DelsFan,

I think you have some misunderstanding of what the EtherRegen is and how it is designed to be used. The single port is designed to be used to connect to the high quality audio portion. So that will be connected to the streamer. The 4 ports on the other side you can consider "normal" LAN ports, think of them as extenders for the LAN ports on your wireless router.

 

The normal way this would be used:

Single port on EtherRegen connects to your streamer -- the EtherRegen should be fairly close to the streamer (like the same room).

 

Modem connects to WAN port of the wireless router.

 

One of the four ports on the EtherRegen connects to one of the LAN ports on the wireless router.

 

Other devices can connect to either the LAN ports on the wireless router or the remaining 3 ports on the EtherRegen wherever they pysically fit the best.

 

All these connections are on the same LAN, they can ALL talk to each other, the controller for the streamer can by on wifi, physically connected to a LAN port on the router, or connected to one of the four ports on the EtherRegen.

 

You do NOT need a special power supply or clocking on ANYTHING else on the network (other than maybe the EtherRegen itself and what is down stream of it). That is what the EtherRegen is all about, preventing the effects from anything else on the network from affecting the sound.

 

John S.

 

 

John, you are very kind to reply.  And I understand everything you said.  My desire (perhaps misguided) is to not have the wireless router - a device not designed at all with the audiophile in mind - in the signal chain between TIDAL and my Streamer. 

 

As one who has been involved with high-end two-channel systems for many years (but knows little about networking), my goal was/is to simplify whatever is at the front end of the signal chain.  I look at the modem/router as being like a Turntable and cartridge.  If I add wireless capability to the modem I'm just introducing one more piece of equipment, not designed at all with the audiophile in mind, into the chain between TIDAL and my Streamer.  If the digital signal is minimally but irreparably degraded by the all-in-one modem/wireless router before it ever gets to the EtherREGEN, then why am I spending $15K on all the equipment downstream!?  For playing LPs, I want a good turntable and cartridge, the more simple the better.  [Like my Linn Sondek: belt driven, one button (on/off), one speed, pick the tonearm up myself after each side of a record has finished playing.]  I'm applying the same philosophy to my digital chain.  Why in the world would I want to insert a modem also equipped with a wireless router into the chain (between TIDAL and my Streamer) if I don't have to; especially when no consideration at all is given to audio quality when these items are designed?

 

NOW, in spite of all the high-end equipment downstream and the pains taken for dedicated mains circuits and power conditioners and vibration isolation and power cords and interconnects, maybe my goal of simplifying the modem/router is misplaced; maybe having the wireless router incorporated into the modem at the very beginning of the signal chain (at least the beginning, as it relates to equipment located in my house) is not a problem at all - and with the insertion of the EtherREGEN between any pretty-decent (say $200) all-in-one modem/wireless router and my Streamer, the data stream going to my Streamer will be as good as it possibly can be.  I'll suggest if this were an analog signal, adding the wireless capability to the first piece of equipment in the signal chain would degrade the sound.  BUT maybe this is not at all the case with a digital signal coming from a long ways away, to a box on the side of my house, to my all-in-one modem, and then on to my Streamer.

 

Right now my cable company rents to me an all-in-one modem/router/wireless device, located at the front of my system.   (This unit I will return as soon as I decide what modem and (separate?) wireless router I wish/need to purchase.)  It has two RJ-45 output jacks.  I have an Ethernet cable going from one of the device's outputs directly to my Streamer, and an Ethernet cable from the other output to an inexpensive NetGear switch - this switch services every other hard-wired device in my house.  Although I question the modem/wireless router's contribution to high fidelity, this setup works fine: my Streamer is connected to the Internet and my iPad communicates with my Streamer. 

 

 

My question is still simple, and remains the same.  The following configuration will work, music will play, every other device will be connected to the internet and will work as intended.  And (necessary or not) as shown, the audio system is isolated from every other piece of equipment in the house. 

But, it is necessary for the iPad to communicate with the (Cary DMS-500) Streamer/DAC.  I'm not one to sacrifice audio quality for convenience, but in this case the whole operation of the (almost any) Streamer is too cumbersome if one does not use the iPad as a remote.  I fear the wireless router will have to be integrated with the Modem.  Then (as John points out) everything downstream of the Modem/wireless router will be on the same LAN.    Is it 100% certain the iPad will not communicate with the Streamer if the equipment configured as is shown below.  Because the EtherREGEN (and by extension, the Streamer) is not connected to one of the Wireless Router's four LAN ports?

 

[DelsFan]

Every time I ask about modems and routers I get the same answer:  Anything over the Ethernet is perfect, which modem and/or router, and/or combo unit I purchase won't (CAN'T) affect the sound quality coming out of my ($5000) streamer/DAC.  (And, an LPS for my modem and router shouldn't have any effect on sound quality either...)  And I guess Alex's thoughts about the Cisco switch he has been recommending, until the EtherREGEN is released, is just, what?, idiocy also?

 

People who visit here care so I'll be glad to hear about your experiences.  I just changed internet providers (fiber not available at my house), and I plan on purchasing a plain modem and (if I can find one) a stand-alone router.  From the router (sans Wi-Fi), I plan to go one direction to my (hardwired) desktop, wireless access point, and television (maybe), and the other direction to the EtherREGEN (A-side) and my Streamer (from the B-side). 

Is trying to keep as many things out of the chain between my modem and Streamer sensible/important/imperative, or does it really just not matter. 

Is looking for a "better" quality modem and router just folly? 

In forty years in the high-end audio hobby I've yet to find something that doesn't matter - maybe this is a first?

I think I understand:

An all-in-one modem/router will almost never sound as good as a good modem connected to a good router (which will then send information from TIDAL, to my Streamer).

I can't run my Ethernet cable from my modem directly to the EtherREGEN and on to my Streamer, I must have a router in-between.

Supposedly, powering my modem and router with a LPS rather than wall-warts is beneficial to sound quality???

If I can find a stand-alone router without Wi-Fi built in, I can place a WAP elsewhere, centrally located, in my house.

Other than logistics, if I must have a router before my EtherREGEN, and the router almost always has four outputs, in many cases will there be no reason to have to use the additional A-side outputs provided on the EtherREGEN?

 

For use with Comcast/Charter coax service, does anyone recommend a particular stand-alone modem and stand-alone router?  Or, will the EtherREGEN cover all sins, I should just buy any darn thing, don't worry about it?  I just don't understand why the EtherREGEN will make a difference, an LPS for the router and modem makes a difference, but what modem and router I purchase doesn't make a difference.  I'm sorry I'm old and not network savvy, but I am enthusiastic about this hobby.

 

One last question:

If I buy a separate modem and router, and the signal for my Streamer has to first pass through the router, should keeping the Wi-Fi electronics out of the router be beneficial?  Or, should I just buy a decent modem, buy a (better or best) router with Wi-Fi, and then forget about it?

 

[DelsFan]

3 hours ago, ericuco said:

 

The EtherREGEN should most likely be placed just before your streamer/DAC regardless of how you are playing music (streaming, local files,, etc.) so data gets scrubbed by the EtherREGEN before hitting your streamer/DAC.

 

As a more home network note, your modem is the first piece of equipment connected from the outside line (probably coax cable), then the router. If you are using the box provided by your ISP, then the modem and router may be in same box. From your router, then you can do as you wish for the most part - Ethernet connection to your EtherREGEN, streamer, switches - the combinations are endless.,,

 

So, everything else in my dedicated Streaming system matters, quality of Streamer/DAC, Headphone Amp, Headphones...  As well as "better" analog and digital interconnects, power cords, lack of wall warts (usually), power conditioners, vibration isolation, etc...

 

I've been hearing this for two years now (and now it is time to replace my cheap all-in-one Comcast supplied modem/router); any Modem and any Router will work as well as any other, for high-end audio, as long as each passes a signal.  [It is agreed, having a router separate from one's modem seems to be better, but apparently not from a sound-quality standpoint.]  I was about to replace the old 60' long coax line feeding my modem from the exterior cable box (under the house, easy to get to in 3' to 4' crawl space) - also a waste of time, yes?

 

Coming from a Linn Sondek Turntable background (purchased in 1978, in an era where whatever was at the "front end" was all-important), it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that everything (EVERYTHING) else matters, save for one's modem and router. 

 

(Not directed at ericuco!)

So, tell me one last time and I'll quit asking:

The EtherREGEN will "scrub" the signal headed to the Streamer in my headphone setup; and, even when powered by wall warts, there is nothing a cheap modem or cheap Wi-Fi router can do to even marginally degrade it before it get there.  Correct?

 

 

 

A bit of humour, or at least amusement:  Note in the David vs Goliath photo below, the little Schiit stack on the left.  For 1/40 the price, it actually sounds really good!

[DelsFan]

10 hours ago, ericuco said:

 

This is starting to move off topic here so I will conclude with "it all depends". All of this is highly system specific. Seeing a photo of your setup helps in that it means you are probably plugging all of your equipment into a single electrical circuit so using LPS MIGHT help cut down any electrical noise on the circuit. Also, you have carpet (vs hardwood) which can affect things. Cables sitting on carpet can POTENTIALLY pick up static electricity.

 

It also depends if you are streaming music from the Internet vs playing local files. With local files, you are not running anything through your modem and router. If you are streaming then PERHAPS upgrading modem and router MIGHT help but as I mentioned earlier, a streaming file has gone through probably hundreds of pieces of network gear before it arrives at your house so ...

 

Also, some people here can tell the difference when they swap out what is seemly the most benign item but report hearing significant improvements. I have experienced that some changes help and others don't, quite unexpectedly at times. For instance, the Cisco switch that was being promoted as improving sound actually sounded worse in my system which is predominantly optical network.

 

The promise of the EtherREGEN is to "scrub" the line. Obviously the less junk it needs to scrub, PROBABLY the better but again, that is for you to determine. That is why the Uptone and Sonore guys leave it to the end user to access the results and why they provide return policies.

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  Yes, this is a bit off-topic; however, no one will be utilizing an EtherREGEN if they haven't first installed a modem and router!

 

For the time being, until I spring for a Power Re-generator (which may never happen), I am plugging my CD transport, streamer/DAC, and headphone amplifier (and eventually modem and router and EtherREGEN) into an IsoTek Sirius EVO3 Power Conditioner (this model comes in the form of a power strip, with six outlets); it receives its power via an IEC plug on one end.  The power conditioner is serviced by a 12 gauge Silver Sonic cable from DH Labs; the power comes directly from a 15 amp circuit breaker in my 200 Amp box.  See photo below; when I say directly, I mean: there is no duplex receptacle in the wall - it is one continuous run from the circuit breaker to the power conditioner. 

[Additionally (when I get caught up), I'll install a separate ground rod in the flower bed outside my Study window, and ground this one circuit independently from the main line coming into my house.  According to people who used to design fighter jets, or design comm systems for submarines (imagine trying to fit, and isolate, every listening, video, and networking device in your entire neighborhood in a space the size of a nice walk-in closet), a separate ground is supposed to make a big difference in sound quality.]

 

My equipment rack sits on brass footers with a 3/4" point on them (and the footers are threaded to the solid 1-1/4" steel rod), so "vibrations" should be (are!) transferred directly to my wood sub-floor.  None of my cables, cords, or interconnects sit on the carpet.  Maybe you can see from the photo below, right:  I've re-purposed a slightly damaged laundry rack to "manage" my (ribbon) interconnects and shielded (also ribbon-based) power cords.  It works for now; although I may come up with a more elegant solution in the future (suspend small diameter maple rods horizontally from the ceiling, supported by silk thread.  You think I'm kidding  😊 ...).

 

At least 90% of my listening is done by streaming music from TIDAL (thus the interest in a quality "sounding" modem and router - and the desire to utilize a router that does not include Wi-Fi).  The only time I use my CD player, as a transport, is if I want to listen to CDs containing music not available on TIDAL.  I do have some seriously well-recorded CDs from Mapleshade (and their other label, Wildchild) that aren't available anywhere else, as well as a few obscure others (known mainly because of her appearance on Rockstar Supernova, Dilana's Wonderfool is one).  I have a computer in the other corner of the room, obviously powered on a different circuit, but I don't have any music stored anywhere other than on CDs, and there is no laptop or other kind of (non-audiophile) computer anywhere in the streaming chain.  Literally, it is just modem, router, streamer, headphone amp, headphones.  (On the way: EtherREGEN)

 

I realize the music (data) I am streaming has gone through many many many other pieces of equipment before it reaches the coax cable running under my house, terminating at my modem.  But, I'll bet not a single piece of that equipment is as cheaply made, from the least expensive parts that will possibly work, as what can be found in most consumer modems and routers.  I do want to preserve whatever quality of signal that finally does make it to my modem - however good or bad it is when it comes to my house, I don't want to make it worse!

 

Aside:  I assume I'm going to have to be the first one to power my modem and router via the JS-2 Linear Power Supply, to see if an LPS for modem and router makes any difference in sound quality (vs their respective wall warts)?

 

If no one has any thoughts, I guess it will also fall upon me to do some A-B testing of modems and routers.  Maybe I'll stick with my all-in-one crapola modem/wi-fi router that allows me to donate another $13/month to Comcast, until my EtherREGEN unit arrives.  Maybe by then I'll have all my other ducks in a row!

[DelsFan]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:10 AM, Superdad said:

... Just to be clear, today finishes shipment of ALL first-batch units. Every last built unit (save one or two for in case of emergency) will be gone.

With order #8915, I assume if somehow I made it from the first few of the second batch to the (absolute) last one of the first batch, I'd already know about it?  A good exercise in patience for me!

 

I've obviously yet to hear the EtherREGEN (or read about it, been busy), but thanks for sticking with the project.  I'm sure the EtherREGEN will give us people who depend on streaming a way to enjoy more of the music.

[DelsFan]

18 hours ago, fpalm69 said:

OK, got the issue with the TP Link FMC sorted out.  Seems it needs to be in Auto mode (not Forced mode) but you need to power cycle it after re-positioning the switch.  It connected, but I much prefer the SQ of the Sonore opticalModule as expected.  

 

A few other items to share - read the manual carefully.  There are some really good tips in getting the best out of this device. For example...the tip about NOT using a shield-tied shell on the RJ45 connectors to eliminate ground/noise issues between devices is spot on.  I changed mine from Supra Cat8 to BlueJeans Cat6 and it improved SQ.  Next up is the tip on using a short Ethernet cable out of the eR to the next device and that also helped the SQ.

 

That's good info; too bad I just purchased two more CAT8 Supra Ethernet cables.  Would it suffice if I (get my friend to) only "modify" one of the cables?  And if so, which one, and on either end??

The first Ethernet cable is probably fine as it is, it connects the modem to the router.

The second goes from my router to my switch/EtherREGEN.

The third goes from my switch/B-Side of EtherREGEN to my streamer.

 

Somewhere I read that "short" Ethernet cables should be no shorter than one meter in length.  It has been reasonably easy for me to follow this "rule"; but did I dream it?  I don't actually recall seeing 1/2 meter lengths for sale anywhere... 

[DelsFan]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:53 AM, EVOLVIST said:

So, really, I'm asking honestly without ulterior motive, how does one even begin to design something like the EtherREGEN? 

 

Most designs, inventions, etc. come out of necessity. One old example is the guy whose mother found it difficult in old age to work a potato peeler, so he designed a better handle for the peeler. This design was then used for a lot of other products with a handle. Or, if you check out the evolution of bridges, it's quite fascinating, as we get into holding more weight with less mass. 

 

I'm just sitting here wondering what was the impetus - the necessity - behind the EtherREGEN. Was it that people claimed that there was "noise" in their Ethernet, or studies showed that it was an imperfect system that needed to be remedied? I'm thinking that if those two examples are the leading reason behind the EtherREGEN then the commercial implications could be huge for Uptone...

I think the "necessity" is because the quality of sound from streaming is less than the quality from one's CD player (which is less than the quality from one's turntable).  While I'm sure no "studies" were done, there is a lot of room for improvement and John had a unique idea to "help" those of us who care about the "high end".  There are several ways to improve sound quality when streaming, but even on the best systems the quality falls short of that when using the other methods of playback.  I know John will explain "all" in his white paper, although it is doubtful my Civil Engineering background will have prepared me to understand it, but it seems the implementation of his idea benefits "only" 98% or 99% of the people who have tried it in their systems.

 

Streaming is really convenient, and cost effective also - but why spend $5,000 on a streamer if an album on your $800 turntable sounds better?  (Other than for convenience, and I love being able to think of any song I used to like and then listen to it, all for the price of one or two CDs (or half an album!)?)  The quest to improve streaming will continue - while playing a CD was an order of magnitude more convenient than playing a vinyl album, I suggest the increase by going from the CD player to streaming is several.

 

And regardless of the "perfection" offered by a digital stream, whether for analog or digital signals, efficiently passing electrons through copper wire (or silver coated copper, or silver) has still not been remotely perfected - things like material, varying crystalline structures (which seemingly can be modified utilizing cryogenics), shape (I use ribbons rather than wire), insulation, and temperature all seem to have an impact on sound quality.  In the winter it is common for temperatures to drop to the mid-20s where I live; so this January when that happens, one evening I'm going to set up my system in the back yard just outside the window of my study, let it cold-soak overnight, then run my headphone cable through the window and, over coffee, see what happens.  I'm sure it will sound better!

[DelsFan]

22 minutes ago, fpalm69 said:

 

 

I found several 6 inch (0.5ft.) Ethernet cables on Amazon.  Went with the StarTech brand and YES, I noticed improved SQ over the 1M Supra it replaced.  This is between the EtherREGEN and the Roon Nucleus.

 

I like Supra cables and use them throughout my system - USB & power cables.  Good tip on modifying the Supra Cat8 to remove the shield.  I'll give that a try.

Let us know what you find; if the StarTech Ethernet cable sounds better than the unmodified CAT8 Supra, because it doesn't matter how good the cable is if the two shields are tied together, but not as good as the correctly modified CAT8 Supra cable...

 

It seems the only Ethernet cable that needs to not have the two shields tied together is the one going from one's modem/router to the B-side of the EtherREGEN.

[DelsFan]

I have a Roon question (Maybe this needs its own thread?):

When streaming, how do I keep both the Roon Core (Nucleus, or dedicated mini-computer) and my streamer isolated, on the B-side of my EtherREGEN, without having to use two switches?

- As shown in the diagram below, I guess I could use the original EtherREGEN that I already own, in conjunction with the Gen II EtherREGEN that I'll buy, soon?

- OR, just don't use Roon!

 

HOWEVER, my Streamer (Cary DMS-550) is Roon Ready, and (using my friend's mini-computer to run Roon Core when he came to visit on Saturday) it was immediately clear to both of us the sound quality utilizing his mini-computer and Roon was better than just listening to Tidal Connect, decoded by my streamer.  (I don't know if the improvement is due to the RAAT "system" Roon touts, or perhaps I needed to adjust some settings to make Tidal Connect perform better.)

 

In my current setup there is no desktop or laptop computer anywhere in the (digital and analog) music chain (and I don't want one).  HOWEVER, to incorporate Roon, somewhere in the chain there has to be a (in my case, dedicated) computer to run the Roon software.

 

My Streamer has only one Ethernet input, and the "home" for the Roon Core, a Roon Nucleus (or another option, a dedicated mini-computer) also has only one Ethernet input (in/out).  Thus my dilemma.

I'm not willing to use a (lower sound quality) USB cable from the Nucleus (or mini-computer) to the Streamer to "solve" the problem.

 

Any thoughts?  The diagram below shows the only way I've figured out how to keep both the Roon Core and the Streamer isolated from my other computers.

 

 

A FRIEND OF MINE USES THIS (dedicated to streaming only) MINI-COMPUTER TO RUN HIS Roon CORE:

 

 

 

 

 

AS WITH THE MINI COMPUTER, THE Roon nucleus ALSO OFFERS ONLY ONE ETHERNET CONNECTION:

 

 

 

[DelsFan]

On 7/4/2023 at 11:47 PM, Cable Monkey said:

Run your Roon computer on the A side. It isn't worth messing about configuring a second Ethernet port in my opinion. You have to assume Roon is relatively noisy (which it is when talking to multiple end points and remotes) and you want it on the other side of the moat. Also if you put Roon's ROCK operating system on the MeLE it can't accommodate a second port that can be configured to feed a streamer. Pretty much any other OS can. What OS did you intend using?

Well, my friend was using Windows on his MeLE mini computer.  I didn't know there was much of an option - is it possible to buy the mini computer with no operating system (or just don't use it), and install the ROCK operating system and use it to run Roon (which is the only purpose for this computer)?  I assume there are advantages when using (developed to do this one thing) ROCK over Windows, which huge and does one million other things?  Would using ROCK perhaps all for better sound?

 

Although more costly, if it sounds better I'm considering using the Roon Nucleus rather than the mini computer.

 

 

On 7/5/2023 at 12:38 PM, SQFIRST said:

Nice work explaining your proposed setup and the information in your post. 

It may be helpful to also describe the connections as used for:

-listening to Tidal connect

-listening to your friend's Roon core

That may help you figure out your course further, as you now already know to avoid placing the Roon core on the B-side.

 

 

My original education was in Civil Engineering, and that was 40 years ago; so, I can fill three or four thimbles with what I know about computing and its terminology.

When I listen to Tidal connect, I use an (OmegaMicro Ebony...) ethernet cable from the B-side of my EtherREGEN to connect directly to my Cary Streamer/DAC's Ethernet input.  The Streamer is Roon Ready, TIDAL ready, and with the recent firmware update, TIDAL Connect ready.  I just use my iPad as a remote control.

 

When listening to Roon, we just connected my friend's MeLE computer to the A-side if my EtherREGEN using my old CAT8 Supra Ethernet cable. Then, of course, the music stream went from the B-side to my Streamer.

 

 

 

 

[DelsFan]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:09 AM, Superdad said:

That is the correct recommendation. 
Always keep whatever is the DAC-attached computer/streamer/renderer endpoint (or Ethernet-input-equipped DAC) ALONE  on one side of the EtherREGEN’s active-differential-isolation and reclocking “moat.”

Keep all other computers, NAS, etc. on the upstream side. 

 

On 7/5/2023 at 2:02 PM, audiobomber said:

What about this?

Connect the ancillary gear to the ethernet ports of the v2 ER

Connect the Roon computer to the ER v2 B-side.

Connect the ER v2 to the ER v1 via fiber

Connect the ER v1 B-side to your streamer

 

As always Alex, thanks so much for your attention to your products and customers (fellow music lovers). 

Would the solution @audiobomber offers in his quote below work (at all)?

 

I guess my questions about the option in the quote below are: would the solution below work well/better?

a) would connecting the two EtherREGEN units using fiber instead of Ethernet cable sound better?

b) Kind of one of the intentions of my original question:

Might I realize an (audio quality) benefit by isolating the Roon Nucleus or MeLE (or similar) mini-computer from everything else by connecting it to the B-Side of the first EtherREGEN unit, and then further isolate the Streamer/DAC by connecting it to the B-side of a second EtherREGEN (since with the purchase of the Gen2 EtherREGEN, I'll own two anyway)?

Or, is the only/best way to find out to just try listening with the Gen2 EtherREGEN, and then add the second (Gen1) EtherREGEN and see if there is a difference.  From a functionality standpoint, is there any reason I/we couldn't use two EtherREGEN units in series and get a (better, or the same, or worse) result?