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EtherREGEN: The long development and active launch discussion thread.

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57 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Case will the exact same size/style as the UltraCap units

 

will need to place something very heavy on top of it, thanks to my ethernet cables stiffness 9_9

please consider making it "wall mountable" ;)


Qnap HS-251+ NAS (powered by an HD-Plex 100w LPS) > Cirrus7 Nimbini v2.5 Media Edition i7-8559U/32/512 (Roon ROCK) > Lumin U1 Mini (powered by a Vinnie Rossi Mini Pure-DC-4EVR LPS) >  UpTone Audio ISO Regen (powered by an Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2) > Metrum Acoustics Adagio NOS digital preamplifier + First Watt SIT 3  power amplifier (or First Watt J2 or Don Garber Fi "Y" 6922 tube preamplifier + Don Garber Fi "X" 2A3 SET power amplifier, both powered from an Alpha-Core BP-30 Isolated Symmetrical Power Transformer) > Klipsch Cornwall III

 

headphones system:

Cirrus 7 > Lumin U1 Mini > Metrum Adagio > Pathos Aurium amplifier (powered by an UpTone Audio JS-2 LPS) > Focal Clear headphones

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1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Other end will have an SFP Fiber Ethernet cage, an LED, a DC input jack, and the one very special, clean and highly isolated Ethernet "output" jack (which is 10/1000Mb, not Gigabit)

I guess you mean 10/100 Mbps.  I hope it's OK to ask for a clarification on this point.  Are the SFP fiber ethernet cage and the isolated ethernet output jack two separate ports?  If so, I guess I don't understand the role of the SFP cage.


NUC7PJYH/AL --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10 Version 1903/HDPLEX 200W/HDPLEX 400W DC-ATX --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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On 3/22/2018 at 10:51 AM, Superdad said:

EtherREGEN (that's just a working codename, not saying we will use that)

Put me down for a pre-order unit!!!!!  :)

 

BTW, love the SFP port!


12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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On 3/22/2018 at 12:51 PM, Superdad said:

the XO itself

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Just curious - did John and you consider using XO or even OCXO? Was that a cost tradeoff?

 

Of course, I can wait until you're ready to say more about the clock design.

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On 3/22/2018 at 10:51 AM, Superdad said:

 

Hi Blake:  Great question, though a bit premature.

 

Our switch will have one special "output" port (to go to the streamer/DAC), and that port will have a lot of expensive isolator chips (and high-quality clocking on that clean side--which also feeds back across the isolation moat to the switch chip) and crazy attention paid to power (lost track of how many voltage regs the whole thing has) and power plane domains.

So in theory the external DC supply for the EtherREGEN (that's just a working codename, not saying we will use that) should not matter to the performance.  But I won't be surprised if in reality it does.  Just like with our USB/ISO REGENs--which are plenty effective with their stock SMPS but also benefit from a great LPS.

 

 

But of course! :D

 

Oh heck, as long as I'm spilling a few beans, I'll give a few more tidbits (but we are saving details about all the whiz-bang performance stuff for the launch, so don't ask about the chips, the clocking, the isolation):

  • Case will the exact same size/style as the UltraCap units
  • One end will have four Gigabit "dirty-side" RJ45 Ethernet "input" jacks
  • Other end will have an SFP Fiber Ethernet cage, an LED, a DC input jack, and the one very special, clean and highly isolated Ethernet "output" jack (which is 10/1000Mb, not Gigabit)
  • Every part--the magnetics, the Ethernet switch chip, the isolators, the clocking flops, the PHY for special port, the regulators, the clock synthesizer, the XO itself--are all carefully chosen to meed the ambitious goals of this design.

The cost of some of the parts is damn high, and we have not done anything more than a very rough cost analysis, so please don't ask about price.  I don't think it will be too bad (with very modest margin similar to LPS-1.2 we are hoping to keep this under $500), but given that it will smoke all those expensive modified off-the-shelf units, it should be another value winner for UpTone.

 

Please don't ask about release date.  You and I want it now, but I promised John he could first continue work on some important "clock fingerprint" measurement test boards.  As usual, we would dearly love to prove the efficacy of the REGENs (both USB and Ethernet), and if he is successful, the new measurement jig (involving special high-speed ADCs, a processor board, and a bunch of other boards) could provide proof for a range of upstream variables that we all hear, especially with regards to data clocking for which nobody understands why it makes a difference.  Could blow things wide open.  Or it could be a bust.  That's what research and test is all about.

Of course if the preproduction prototypes of the EtherREGEN test well on the bench--even if John's clock-marker tests don't get done in time or don't pan out--and if the unit is sonically effective in an audio system, then we are going to put it into production as soon as possible.

 

I honestly can't think of anything more that I would be willing to say about this forthcoming (a few months?) product.  So while I love you all, please don't ask. ¬¬

Back to the wonders and uses of the hot-selling UltraCap LPS-1.2!

 

--Alex C.

I so can't wait for this!!!

 

 

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On 3/25/2018 at 8:47 AM, austinpop said:

Just curious - did John and you consider using XO or even OCXO? Was that a cost tradeoff?

Of course, I can wait until you're ready to say more about the clock design.

 

Well the clocking in our switch is much more sophisticated than is typical as:

a) we have to pass the clock back across the isolation moat;

b) more than one frequency is used.

That is all I want to say about the clocking architecture at this time.

 

As for use of an OCXO: As John has written about this, cheap OCXOs are no better (often worse) than a good XO--one needs to spend hundreds (at OEM pricing) to get a really good OCXO.  And for data clocks (for USB, Ethernet, or processors), such is total overkill.  Save really great clocks for the DAC audio clock(s).  Even the clock boards in the SOtM units don't use a OCXO as a reference for the SiLabs synthesizer chip. 

Besides, this switch--and the issues we are tackling--is about far more than just clocking...9_9

 

3 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I so can't wait for this!!!

 

That makes quite a few of us! :D

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4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Well the clocking in our switch is much more sophisticated than is typical as:

a) we have to pass the clock back across the isolation moat;

b) more than one frequency is used.

That is all I want to say about the clocking architecture at this time.

 

As for use of an OCXO: As John has written about this, cheap OCXOs are no better (often worse) than a good XO--one needs to spend hundreds (at OEM pricing) to get a really good OCXO.  And for data clocks (for USB, Ethernet, or processors), such is total overkill.  Save really great clocks for the DAC audio clock(s).  Even the clock boards in the SOtM units don't use a OCXO as a reference for the SiLabs synthesizer chip. 

Besides, this switch--and the issues we are tackling--is about far more than just clocking...9_9

 

Hi Alex,

 

Well - I am going to defer to John's expertise on this. Major kudos to him and you for trying to demystify this space. The audiophile switch market is heating up, and it will be interesting to contrast what you guys come up with versus other approaches:

  1. SOtM-modded switches, slaved to sCLK-EX on another box, in turn fed by an expensive OCXO 10 MHz reference clock
  2. SOtM's impending standalone switch (details unknown)
  3. Linear Solutions switch (OCXO in situ, plus external LPS)

I have no horse in this race. I just know how much I love the sound quality of config #1, which is what I currently have. If you guys can deliver that or better at a fraction of the cost, you'll have a major winner!

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I am really excited about this.  When I switched to Server 2016 core, I lost the ability to have a direct Ethernet connection between my HQP PC and NAA via a bridge.  Having to use a switch has taken away some of the dynamics and magic.  Hopefully this new Uptone product will help restore the great sound I was getting.


12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Why 4 ports ?

 

- Router (not everyone will use optical fiber)

- NAS

- Player (computer/network streamer)

- DSP (eg. HQ-Player, on a separate machine)

 

(- Network renderer -> OUT)

 

;)


Qnap HS-251+ NAS (powered by an HD-Plex 100w LPS) > Cirrus7 Nimbini v2.5 Media Edition i7-8559U/32/512 (Roon ROCK) > Lumin U1 Mini (powered by a Vinnie Rossi Mini Pure-DC-4EVR LPS) >  UpTone Audio ISO Regen (powered by an Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2) > Metrum Acoustics Adagio NOS digital preamplifier + First Watt SIT 3  power amplifier (or First Watt J2 or Don Garber Fi "Y" 6922 tube preamplifier + Don Garber Fi "X" 2A3 SET power amplifier, both powered from an Alpha-Core BP-30 Isolated Symmetrical Power Transformer) > Klipsch Cornwall III

 

headphones system:

Cirrus 7 > Lumin U1 Mini > Metrum Adagio > Pathos Aurium amplifier (powered by an UpTone Audio JS-2 LPS) > Focal Clear headphones

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13 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

Any chance of the 2 x Superclean ports being a goer, or is that a no go?

 

I decline to state why, but that is a no-go.  Would require a second Ethernet switch chip.  If I say anything more we would begin to give away competitive details. Sorry.

Since the price of the product will be as reasonable as we can make it, so folks who really need 2 of the super-clean outputs may simply purchase two units.

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Guess my system must be close to endgame since the only thing that is exciting me lately is the EtherREGEN!


ChrisG

Seattle, WA

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2 hours ago, Superdad said:

I decline to state why, but that is a no-go.  Would require a second Ethernet switch chip.  If I say anything more we would begin to give away competitive details. Sorry.

Alex

 

Understand if it could compromise your design to keep quiet.

 

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

Since the price of the product will be as reasonable as we can make it, so folks who really need 2 of the super-clean outputs may simply purchase two units.

 

That's really generous of you to offer 2-to-1 price, thanks I'll have 88 please :P

 

On a more serious note, do you think going to my Antipodes Server or Devialet Amp, which would give the best option for the Superclean Ethernet. I suppose when listening to Antipodes I plug that into the SC port, and when listening to internet streamed to Devialet Amp plug that into SC port.

 

I've currently got an Aqvox switch, so assume your EtherREGEN would be a better option than that

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This could be a game changer for me... I was considering to send my wifi router to get it modded to get to a cleaner network. Perhaps EtherRegen would already do the trick for me.

 

looking forward to the details on:

 

1) recommended setup: I guess the typical setup for most people is - Modem --> Wifi Router --> switch --> a) NAS, b) Computer (probably a Roon Server), c) streamer. Where should EtherRegen(s) be placed

 

2) some technical explanations:

a) why the clean port is 10/100 not 10/1000?

b) the presence of the SFP, is it for bridging 2 EtherGen?

c) LPS1.2 can power EtherRegen?

d) best placement in the recommended setup and why?

 

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@warpeon I dont think you will get much answers right now from @Superdad as the product is still in development. 

 

As the clean port is supposed to feed the streamer it should be placed right before it. In my system I would go from router to etherregen and connect my NUC with Roon ROCK on the dirty side of the etherregen and my SOtM sMS-200ultra on the clean streamer port.

 

I think it is easier to get a PHY chip with 10/100 cleaner than a 100/1000 but that part will perhaps be explained when more information is coming out.

 

I suppose the SFP is for them that wants to get totall galvanic isolation between two networks.

 

I think that Alex wrote the LPS-1 will power it.


Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D and T2
Tidal Hifi / Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> dCS Network bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, switch and NUC)
 
Second system
Tidal Hifi / Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree

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As to the questions on PoE, it will not support PoE in any form. PoE works by running  very high voltage low current DC over the Ethernet wires (the wires are thin so it has to be low current), this requires very high ratio switching DC/DC converters on both ends. The converters are NOT known for being low noise. The whole purpose of this switch is to make things as low noise as possible, throwing in PoE would completely destroy that.

 

John S.

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49 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

BUT the upstream cables still have leakage current running through them. Because of this it is a BAD idea to place the switch right in with your audio equipment. You want to keep it somewhat away from the audio system so noise from the upstream cable doesn't get picked up.

 

If the upstream cables uses your ground solution (JSSG) will the radiated noise still be a problem to consider in a system?  


Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D and T2
Tidal Hifi / Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> dCS Network bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, switch and NUC)
 
Second system
Tidal Hifi / Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree

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4 hours ago, octaviars said:

 

If the upstream cables uses your ground solution (JSSG) will the radiated noise still be a problem to consider in a system?  

Yes if the cables are shielded properly with my shielding techniques then the radiated leakage current is hugely reduced so it will not a be a problem.

 

John S.

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2 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@JohnSwenson

 

Now, I must have been missing or mixing something from the other treads. 

If a LPS-1/1.2 is powering on those present mentioned switches, and the Meanwell is modified with the shunt or I use the new UASMPS, do I still need to add JSGT on the DC comming from the LPS-1/1.2 powering that switch (Cisco SG108D-08 / Netgear FS105 as an example). ?

 

Yes,

the blocking of upstream leakage only happens when the ground plane in the switch is actually grounded. The easiest way to make sure that happens is to ground the negative of the power supply. Some switches have a ground screw, but that just grounds the CASE, NOT the ground plane of the PCB.

 

The LPS-1(.2) deliberately blocks the ground connection from the input to output, so even if the INPUT is grounded, the output is NOT grounded. Thus a separate ground connection on the output is required if you want to get rid of the leakage from upstream network devices.

 

The new switch will contain a similar connection scheme as is used on the "special" switches so the upstream leakage reduction works in the same way.

 

John S.

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