EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Adyc said:

Alex, have you tested whether there are benefits using two EtherRegens in series?

 

LOL. Two of them don't exist yet.  Only one working unit in all the universe at this moment.  

So we'll not speculate about potential benefit of two.

 

Since I have read about folks taking SOtM's recommendation to pair up two of their large $1,500 sNH-10G switches (it's 3 times as wide, 2 times as deep, and 2.5 times the price each versus EtherREGEN), I will comment about that briefly:

Without active digital isolators, all the ports of an sNH-10G are in the same power and clock domain--sharing a single clock line from their sCLK-EX clock synthesizer board (if the version with that is ordered). Putting two sNH-10G units in series gives you a separated clock domain for the second unit--to which presumably you would attach only the DAC connected endpoint device.

 

Because we send data (and power) across a "moat" using two very new and expensive 600Mbps low-jitter differential isolators and reclocking afterward--on both sides--with ultra-low-jitter 10GHz-capable even more expensive flip-flops, we are creating two isolated clocking domains within the single switch.  

 

So while I don't want to presume what people will hear in comparison, a single EtherREGEN will, from a electrical/logic standpoint, accomplish what it takes a pair of SOtM switches to do. 

 

But hey, if people want to buy a pair of EtherREGENs we won't stop them. 

Actually, I take that back.  To be most fair to all at launch, we may limit it to one per client for the first run. (I have to think about this as I know some overseas buyers may group together a bit.  We see this all the time into Asia with UltraCap orders.)

 

 

[rickca]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

The above tests, if they reveal what we hope, could be a VERY BIG DEAL for the digital audio community.  Not just for our own products.

Maybe you can get John Atkinson to do a review of the JS GGB CTS.  Sorry, but 'birth of a new world' is taken.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

Maybe you can get John Atkinson to do a review of the JS GGB CTS.  Sorry, but 'birth of a new world' is taken.

 

He would need to make or purchase a JS GGB CTS 😂

 

I don’t think reviewing equipment for measuring signals is part of Stereophile philosophy. But showing results using the JS GGB CTS, for sure.

Actually thinking of this, how can he reject not to use such equipment ?

(That question can probably be raised to many others as well)

 

I wonder if this JS GGB CTS can be used to show or measure other effects in the signal path ? (Not only digital isolators). 

 

Well i suppose its to early. But we will most likely have a JS GGB CTS tread later this year. 

[Dutch]

15 hours ago, DelsFan said:

Sadly I'm not a networking person, so I have a question.  I use my iPad as a "remote control" for my DMS-500 Streamer - the iPad communicates with the Streamer via the wireless network.  I was hoping to isolate "everything" from the Streamer (to the extent of: I considered a "dedicated" internet supply with its own modem that serviced nothing but the Streamer) but it seems that isn't possible.

 

However, it seems I need to utilize the wireless network in order to use the Streamer (with the iPad, because using the Streamer's remote is cumbersome).  Will the EtherREGEN, used as shown in the diagram below, allow the wireless router (and the iPad) to talk to the Streamer?  I guess my question is: will the wireless router allow communication back "out" through its Ethernet "In" port?  Thanks very much for your assistance; if I need to go another direction I might as well start thinking about it now! 

 

I guess plan B would be to place the wireless router between the Modem and the EtherREGEN ?  Coming from an analog background, my instinct is to keep everything possible out of the path between the Modem and the Streamer!  Thus the layout shown in the diagram below, where the path from the box on the side of my house to the Streamer is as direct as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Delsfan, this setup will absolutely work but you can view any ethernet port as both in and output port. You may confuse the single separate clock domain ‘isolated’ port on the etherregen as an out port as that port is advised to be connected to the ethernet device closest to your DAC. Functionally though it’ll operate as any other port on an etherregen or any other switch.

[DelsFan]

2 hours ago, Dutch said:

 

Hi Delsfan, this setup will absolutely work but you can view any ethernet port as both in and output port. You may confuse the single separate clock domain ‘isolated’ port on the etherregen as an out port as that port is advised to be connected to the ethernet device closest to your DAC. Functionally though it’ll operate as any other port on an etherregen or any other switch.

 

Thanks for your reply.  Does the same apply for the wireless router? 

I think my real question is:  Will the Streamer be allowed to communicate back and forth with the iPad, through the Wireless Router?  Isn't there usually some sort of security at the wireless router, and if the Streamer doesn't have the correct identification (password?) the Wireless Router won't allow the exchange of information with the "random" device upstream (in this case, the Streamer)?   Or is that security at the Modem?

 

[lmitche]

9 minutes ago, DelsFan said:

 

Thanks for your reply.  Does the same apply for the wireless router? 

I think my real question is:  Will the Streamer be allowed to communicate back and forth with the iPad, through the Wireless Router?  Isn't there usually some sort of security at the wireless router, and if the Streamer doesn't have the correct identification (password?) the Wireless Router won't allow the exchange of information with the "random" device upstream (in this case, the Streamer)?   Or is that security at the Modem?

 

As drawn, this won't work, or if it does it is not secure.

 

The modem needs to be plugged into the wan port of the wireless router. This puts the firewall between the modem and the lan devices. The EtherRegen would be plugged into one of the lan ports in the same wireless router.

 

Also, if possible, plug the office computer directly into the wireless router as well separating office traffic from music traffic.

[R1200CL]

16 minutes ago, DelsFan said:

Will the Streamer be allowed to communicate back and forth with the iPad, through the Wireless Router?

 

Yes, 100 %  

 

Edit.

The router first after modem. 

[Dutch]

Regarding @DelsFan’s question, I had been assuming the modem is also the Internet router (and firewall, switch). In my country this is near to 100% the case. If not Lmitche is right and this won’t work. If it’s really just a modem bridging cable to ethernet than absolutely the router has to come directly ‘behind’ the modem.

 

I remember similar questions perhaps it was you (delsfan) too. It’s quite difficult to advise online when not knowing what function each device has. Perhaps it’s easiest to get someone over or open a separate topic specifiying in detail the types of devices you have, what functions they perform and how they’re connected now.

 

Communications between wireless devices and wired devices are not subject to filtering/security when the wireless router is in the same network/subnet as the switches for the wired network. So there has to be an ethernet link between the wireless router (LAN) and the switches.

[DelsFan]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Yes, 100 %  

 

Edit.

The router first after modem. 

 

Once you put the (by audiophile standards) piece of crap Wireless router between the modem and the EtherREGEN the signal is irreparably compromised.  I think... 

Not to mention, now we have a THIRD piece of equipment that "needs" an LPS to supply its current-ial needs.  😣

I wish to separate the wireless router from the modem because I think I can find a decent quality modem that won't degrade the signal too much.  I have no such confidence in finding an all-in-one modem/wireless router that won't negate thousands spent on other quality pieces of equipment.

 

Another advantage of the schematic I presented is there are only three cables required between the box on the outside of my house and the Streamer.  One long cable going under the house, in one piece, no connections or wall plates, connecting directly to my Modem.  One high-quality 1-meter Ethernet cable from the Modem to the EtherREGEN, and one last 1-meter Ethernet cable from the EtherREGEN to the Streamer.

 

In the schematic I presented earlier, I'm not worried about my Desktop Computer messing up the "sound" because: its digital signal is isolated by the EtherREGEN, the headphone system (including the LPS for the modem and EtherREGEN) is on its own dedicated mains circuit with its own power conditioner, and (from an electromagnetic standpoint) the Desktop is located fifteen feet away in the other corner of the room.

 

My niece is working on her PhD in computer science; presents papers/research (as a graduate student) at conventions in Europe (and America) all the time.  Wins awards.  (Understatement:) perhaps a tutorial from her is in order!

 

[BCRich]

Unless the modem has a router built in it will not work as a modem is not going to hand out IP Addresses to any devices connected to the etherRegen. The router has to go before the Uptone device, the etherRegen will isolate the connected devices from the WiFi Router. There are many options out there regarding stand alone Routers and Access Points, but this comes with a larger expense. I am using a eero System and have no issues. The etherRegen will take it to another level sonically.

[JohnSwenson]

Hi DelsFan,

I think you have some misunderstanding of what the EtherRegen is and how it is designed to be used. The single port is designed to be used to connect to the high quality audio portion. So that will be connected to the streamer. The 4 ports on the other side you can consider "normal" LAN ports, think of them as extenders for the LAN ports on your wireless router.

 

The normal way this would be used:

Single port on EtherRegen connects to your streamer -- the EtherRegen should be fairly close to the streamer (like the same room).

 

Modem connects to WAN port of the wireless router.

 

One of the four ports on the EtherRegen connects to one of the LAN ports on the wireless router.

 

Other devices can connect to either the LAN ports on the wireless router or the remaining 3 ports on the EtherRegen wherever they pysically fit the best.

 

All these connections are on the same LAN, they can ALL talk to each other, the controller for the streamer can by on wifi, physically connected to a LAN port on the router, or connected to one of the four ports on the EtherRegen.

 

You do NOT need a special power supply or clocking on ANYTHING else on the network (other than maybe the EtherRegen itself and what is down stream of it). That is what the EtherRegen is all about, preventing the effects from anything else on the network from affecting the sound.

 

John S.

 

[DelsFan]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi DelsFan,

I think you have some misunderstanding of what the EtherRegen is and how it is designed to be used. The single port is designed to be used to connect to the high quality audio portion. So that will be connected to the streamer. The 4 ports on the other side you can consider "normal" LAN ports, think of them as extenders for the LAN ports on your wireless router.

 

The normal way this would be used:

Single port on EtherRegen connects to your streamer -- the EtherRegen should be fairly close to the streamer (like the same room).

 

Modem connects to WAN port of the wireless router.

 

One of the four ports on the EtherRegen connects to one of the LAN ports on the wireless router.

 

Other devices can connect to either the LAN ports on the wireless router or the remaining 3 ports on the EtherRegen wherever they pysically fit the best.

 

All these connections are on the same LAN, they can ALL talk to each other, the controller for the streamer can by on wifi, physically connected to a LAN port on the router, or connected to one of the four ports on the EtherRegen.

 

You do NOT need a special power supply or clocking on ANYTHING else on the network (other than maybe the EtherRegen itself and what is down stream of it). That is what the EtherRegen is all about, preventing the effects from anything else on the network from affecting the sound.

 

John S.

 

 

John, you are very kind to reply.  And I understand everything you said.  My desire (perhaps misguided) is to not have the wireless router - a device not designed at all with the audiophile in mind - in the signal chain between TIDAL and my Streamer. 

 

As one who has been involved with high-end two-channel systems for many years (but knows little about networking), my goal was/is to simplify whatever is at the front end of the signal chain.  I look at the modem/router as being like a Turntable and cartridge.  If I add wireless capability to the modem I'm just introducing one more piece of equipment, not designed at all with the audiophile in mind, into the chain between TIDAL and my Streamer.  If the digital signal is minimally but irreparably degraded by the all-in-one modem/wireless router before it ever gets to the EtherREGEN, then why am I spending $15K on all the equipment downstream!?  For playing LPs, I want a good turntable and cartridge, the more simple the better.  [Like my Linn Sondek: belt driven, one button (on/off), one speed, pick the tonearm up myself after each side of a record has finished playing.]  I'm applying the same philosophy to my digital chain.  Why in the world would I want to insert a modem also equipped with a wireless router into the chain (between TIDAL and my Streamer) if I don't have to; especially when no consideration at all is given to audio quality when these items are designed?

 

NOW, in spite of all the high-end equipment downstream and the pains taken for dedicated mains circuits and power conditioners and vibration isolation and power cords and interconnects, maybe my goal of simplifying the modem/router is misplaced; maybe having the wireless router incorporated into the modem at the very beginning of the signal chain (at least the beginning, as it relates to equipment located in my house) is not a problem at all - and with the insertion of the EtherREGEN between any pretty-decent (say $200) all-in-one modem/wireless router and my Streamer, the data stream going to my Streamer will be as good as it possibly can be.  I'll suggest if this were an analog signal, adding the wireless capability to the first piece of equipment in the signal chain would degrade the sound.  BUT maybe this is not at all the case with a digital signal coming from a long ways away, to a box on the side of my house, to my all-in-one modem, and then on to my Streamer.

 

Right now my cable company rents to me an all-in-one modem/router/wireless device, located at the front of my system.   (This unit I will return as soon as I decide what modem and (separate?) wireless router I wish/need to purchase.)  It has two RJ-45 output jacks.  I have an Ethernet cable going from one of the device's outputs directly to my Streamer, and an Ethernet cable from the other output to an inexpensive NetGear switch - this switch services every other hard-wired device in my house.  Although I question the modem/wireless router's contribution to high fidelity, this setup works fine: my Streamer is connected to the Internet and my iPad communicates with my Streamer. 

 

 

My question is still simple, and remains the same.  The following configuration will work, music will play, every other device will be connected to the internet and will work as intended.  And (necessary or not) as shown, the audio system is isolated from every other piece of equipment in the house. 

But, it is necessary for the iPad to communicate with the (Cary DMS-500) Streamer/DAC.  I'm not one to sacrifice audio quality for convenience, but in this case the whole operation of the (almost any) Streamer is too cumbersome if one does not use the iPad as a remote.  I fear the wireless router will have to be integrated with the Modem.  Then (as John points out) everything downstream of the Modem/wireless router will be on the same LAN.    Is it 100% certain the iPad will not communicate with the Streamer if the equipment configured as is shown below.  Because the EtherREGEN (and by extension, the Streamer) is not connected to one of the Wireless Router's four LAN ports?

 

[jaaptina]

@DelsFanI'm not an expert but I think you forget the digitized music stream does NOT get corrupted by any modem or switch in the chain. The signal is passing hundreds of such devices between Tidal and your home. So don't worry about your own modem/router. The music data stream is 100%. I understand it's the added noise that is simultainiously passed through that the EtherRegen filters. This added noise does not pollute/change the digital music stream but could influence the processing in your streaming device. With any properly working network device your streamer will always receive the original music data stream 100%. This is how I understand Superdad's explanations. 

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, DelsFan said:

Right now my cable company rents to me an all-in-one modem/router/wireless device, located at the front of my system.   (This unit I will return as soon as I decide what modem and (separate?) wireless router I wish/need to purchase.)

 

I think you’re complicating this a lot. 

 

It’s working today, right ? There is absolutely no reason to change. 

Actually you may connect your streamer to that switch. It may even help today’s SQ. 

 

Or add one special switch (a very cheap used one) that has been discussed in another thread some months ago. But then again, it’s better to wait for the EtherRegen. Just connect it between your streamer and router/switch, as John said in his reply to you. 

 

You really need to talk with your niece about basics of how ethernet setup works 😀 

 

One place there has to be an item in your network that has a DHCP functionality. (It’s normally the first item after the modem, unless it’s a combined solution as yours). That’s what a router does. In addition a router is also a switch. And  very often also a wireless access point. 

You most likely can bridge your present all in one device. Then almost nothing will  work until you add a router to your system. To that router you can add a wireless access point. Do you really like to do things so complicated? When all is working well today ?

 

If you still don’t understand, please start a new thread, and ask Superdad to move these last posts over there, as this has nothing to do with the EtherRegen. 

 

BTW

if your last drawing is correct, and the modem is also your router, that WiFi router needs to be configured as an wireless access point. (If it’s an Asus, they are very easy to set up). 

 

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, DelsFan said:

But, it is necessary for the iPad to communicate with the (Cary DMS-500) Streamer/DAC.

 

Your Cary has WiFi built in. Did you know that ? Did you test ?

https://www.caryaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DMS-Products_manual.pdf

 

Also look page 41. 

 

[mfaoro]

Hello Superdad et al,

 

I am the market for an audiophile switch. 

 

I have been following this thread for some time. I am afraid my non-technical brain has become a little confused. What I really want to know, is your product going to support the network in the following image: 

 

 

I would love to give you my business if it does. Superdad has always been super responsive to my questions in the past and I have enjoyed our, albeit short, conversations.

 

Thanks,

Michael

 

ps. the Router hooks up to an Oppo BluRay player

[JohnSwenson]

Yes this will work quite nicely, the EtherRegen has an SFP cage into which you can plug an optical SFP module, run fiber to an FMC (it has to match the connectors, fiber type and wavelength of the SFP module you plugged into the EtherRegen. The easiest way to do that is to use an FMC with an SFP cage and use the same model SFP module in both the FMC and EtherRegen).

 

The single port on the EtherRegen goes to the streamer.

 

The Roon Nucleus and NAS plug into the 4 jacks on the other side. All this is on the same subnet so it all talks to each other. If the router is WiFi you can use a wireless device to control Roon.

 

The Roon Nuceus and the NAS do not HAVE to be connected directly to the EtherRegen. You CAN connect them to the EtherRegen if they are near to it, but they will work just as well with NO sonic degradation if connected to some other switch or the router.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, mfaoro said:

I am the market for an audiophile switch. 

...

I would love to give you my business if it does. Superdad has always been super responsive to my questions in the past and I have enjoyed our, albeit short, conversations.

 

Thanks for your very kind words! 

As a follow-up to John's reply, I just want to be slightly more explicit:  

• The box that you have marked SWITCH is where the EtherREGEN should go--either as replacement for one you already have, or after it, between the existing switch and your Linn streamer (which we assume is the DAC-connected component in your system.).
• Your DAC-connected streamer/renderer should be hook up to the EtherREGEN's lone port on far side of the isolation (in its own clocking/power domain)

[We are still struggling to find a shorthand name for that port; EtherREGEN is symmetrical other than number of ports on each side, so we are avoiding referring to dirty/clean sides. And it is also of course bidirectional, so upstream/downstream does not make sense either.]

 

Also, you wrote "Optical Isolation" in your diagram just before the "Switch." John assumed that was a pair of FMCs (fiber media converters, and he pointed out that EtherREGEN has an SFP cage for optical input, with the idea that you would set aside the downstream end of it and run right into the EtherREGEN, hence his mention of being sure to get a compatible SFP module. Or maybe your router has a fiber port to com directly from, so that's similar.

But perhaps you meant something different with your "Optical Isolation" square on your block diagram.  It is helpful to be explicit about such things so that any answers you receive are on target.

[R1200CL]

@mfaoro

Michael. 

 

A very nice diagram. This will hopefully help others that is uncertain in basic network setup.

 

I personally find the way most other people describe their network topology quite confusing.

 

If router doesn’t contain WiFi, a wireless access point can be added there, but you won’t do anything wrong adding it to EtherRegen either. That said I guess must of us may feel it’s against our religion to do so 😀

 

Also to those that plan to hook up a streamer with optical interface, like the OpticalRendu, to the EtherRegen, you will get the same effect the switch is intended to do by connecting the optical interface from EtherRegen to OpticalRendu.

The single 100 MHz RJ45 is then connected to router or whatever is in between. 

 

What I’m not 100% sure of yet, is if one like to activate one or all of those other 3 RJ45 ports will in anyway affect the “magic” the EtherRegen is intended to do. (In such setup)

 

Nor do I know if using an Optical Module instead would be a better way to utilize the EtherRegen in the chain if you happen to have a streamer with optical interface. 

(You do of cause put the OpticalModule to the 100 MHz RJ45 port)

 

I hope these question that basically asking what is the best way to use the EtherRegen with an optical streamer is if (and only if) you’re also planning to use the other ports, can be answered.

 

Yes, a dual EtherRegen will solve it, if an issue 😀

 

 

[R1200CL]

17 minutes ago, Superdad said:

We are still struggling to find a shorthand name for that port

 

This “super isolator”, is still a 100 MHz port ?

[mfaoro]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 

Also, you wrote "Optical Isolation" in your diagram just before the "Switch." John assumed that was a pair of FMCs (fiber media converters, and he pointed out that EtherREGEN has an SFP cage for optical input, with the idea that you would set aside the downstream end of it and run right into the EtherREGEN, hence his mention of being sure to get a compatible SFP module. Or maybe your router has a fiber port to com directly from, so that's similar.

But perhaps you meant something different with your "Optical Isolation" square on your block diagram.  It is helpful to be explicit about such things so that any answers you receive are on target.

I do use FMCs for the optical section. Ethernet to the switch.

 

This is awesome news! Very very excited. 

i will make sure to have the right setup to use the optical in on your product.

 

And I won’t ask any questions about price or availability

 

 

[rickca]

@Superdad and @JohnSwenson with reference to the Optical Isolation block in @mfaoro's diagram ...

 

What if that block is a Sonore opticalModule sitting between the router and the optical SFP module of the EtherREGEN.  I then connect my endpoint NUC to the port on the other side of the EtherREGEN (with its own power/clocking domain), and my DAC is connected to the NUC via USB.

 

Do you expect that this configuration would sound any better than just going from the router into one of the non-optical ports on the EtherREGEN?  Given the isolation of the EtherREGEN output port, is there any further benefit to coming into the EtherREGEN with optical?

[JohnSwenson]

31 minutes ago, rickca said:

@Superdad and @JohnSwenson with reference to the Optical Isolation block in @mfaoro's diagram ...

 

What if that block is a Sonore opticalModule sitting between the router and the optical SFP module of the EtherREGEN.  I then connect my endpoint NUC to the port on the other side of the EtherREGEN (with its own power/clocking domain), and my DAC is connected to the NUC via USB.

 

Do you expect that this configuration would sound any better than just going from the router into one of the non-optical ports on the EtherREGEN?  Given the isolation of the EtherREGEN output port, is there any further benefit to coming into the EtherREGEN with optical?

There shouldn't be any difference going in with with optical, even an opticalModule. That is the theory. In actuality, who knows. Right now I just have a board that WORKS, but is not the final version, so very subtle things like this cannot possibly be accurately tested.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

This “super isolator”, is still a 100 MHz port ?

Yes the port that is on the side with the power inlet, LED etc is 100Mbs.

Previously this was a "it HAD to be 100Mbs in order to work", but there are now chips JUST starting to come into being that would allow gigabit, BUT they are not in volume production, and it would take a major change in architecture. This would cause a significant increase in time to market and cost increase. We decided it wasn't worth it at this point.

 

John S.

[Davidny]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Thanks for your very kind words! 

As a follow-up to John's reply, I just want to be slightly more explicit:  

• The box that you have marked SWITCH is where the EtherREGEN should go--either as replacement for one you already have, or after it, between the existing switch and your Linn streamer (which we assume is the DAC-connected component in your system.).
• Your DAC-connected streamer/renderer should be hook up to the EtherREGEN's lone port on far side of the isolation (in its own clocking/power domain)

[We are still struggling to find a shorthand name for that port; EtherREGEN is symmetrical other than number of ports on each side, so we are avoiding referring to dirty/clean sides. And it is also of course bidirectional, so upstream/downstream does not make sense either.]

 

Also, you wrote "Optical Isolation" in your diagram just before the "Switch." John assumed that was a pair of FMCs (fiber media converters, and he pointed out that EtherREGEN has an SFP cage for optical input, with the idea that you would set aside the downstream end of it and run right into the EtherREGEN, hence his mention of being sure to get a compatible SFP module. Or maybe your router has a fiber port to com directly from, so that's similar.

But perhaps you meant something different with your "Optical Isolation" square on your block diagram.  It is helpful to be explicit about such things so that any answers you receive are on target.

Perhaps you should call the single port, the “dedicated port” since that port is dedicated to sending the cleanest signal to your dac or renderer.