Jud Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 8 hours ago, jos said: How abouth this device, see link? Brand new by the way and promising! https://www.djmelectronics.com/gigafoilv4-inline-ethernet-filter.html AudioStream was quite positive in a review, about a year ago. There are any number of Ethernet isolation transformers you can buy, and they do work to some extent for various types of noise, but to me they are a different type of product than the ER, not so much competing. I agree that if folks want to discuss this other type of product, creating a dedicated thread would be a good idea. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted January 23, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 23, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 11:55 PM, jos said: How abouth this device, see link? Brand new by the way and promising! The GigaFOIL is a passive filter device. EtherREGEN is a isolating switch that puts the signal across active digital isolators with separate, ultra-low-phase-noise clocking on each side. It of course remains to be seen heard which device is most effective sonically. But it certainly seems that from a sheer parts & technology value standpoint people will be getting more for their money with ours at (approx.) $600 than what that filter offers at $550. gstew and Sonic77 1 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
thyname Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 13 hours ago, jos said: How abouth this device, see link? Brand new by the way and promising! https://www.djmelectronics.com/gigafoilv4-inline-ethernet-filter.html @Superdad has addressed this earlier: "Those single port GigaFOIL devices, starting at $475 (https://www.djmelectronics.com/ethernet-emi-rfi-filter.html) are fiber-optic based isolators, strictly focused on EMI. As detailed elsewhere, we are taking a broader approach." Link to comment
nonesup Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I would be wadding to share an experience that I am experiencing right now. My network configuration is: Router to Switch Aqvox to Melco and from this USB to DAC. I am currently reproducing Mozart's Sinfonia 40 from my Melco (not Streeming). I go to the kitchen and I disconnect the Ethernet cable that goes from the Router to the Aqvox. The sound instantly becomes "much more natural." This gives an idea of the amount of noise circulating on the network. And I think it will be the definitive test for EtherRegen, if disconnecting the same cable there is no change in the sound is that Uptone has succeeded. Francisco Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref. MKII / Melco N1ZH60-2 / Audio Research Ref. 5 SE / Gryphon Essence Stereo / Rockport Atria I / Göbel XLR and RCA Cables / Göbel Ethernet and USB Cables / Sablon Ethernet Cabe / MIT Magnum MA Sepeakers Cables / Shunyata Everest 8000 / Shunyata Omega XC (1), Sigma NR V2 (3), Sigma NR V1(1) and Alfa NR V1 (2) / Paul Hynes SR7T for Melco S-100 Pink Faun Upgraded / Farad Super3 for IPS Modem-Router / Center Stage2 0.8, 1.0 and 1.5 Link to comment
jos Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Okay, sorry for bringing it up! It needs another thread indeed. Link to comment
nonesup Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I'm not so sure about this. I am describing the test I intend to do with EtherRegen to check its effectiveness, not with GigaFOIL. Francisco Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref. MKII / Melco N1ZH60-2 / Audio Research Ref. 5 SE / Gryphon Essence Stereo / Rockport Atria I / Göbel XLR and RCA Cables / Göbel Ethernet and USB Cables / Sablon Ethernet Cabe / MIT Magnum MA Sepeakers Cables / Shunyata Everest 8000 / Shunyata Omega XC (1), Sigma NR V2 (3), Sigma NR V1(1) and Alfa NR V1 (2) / Paul Hynes SR7T for Melco S-100 Pink Faun Upgraded / Farad Super3 for IPS Modem-Router / Center Stage2 0.8, 1.0 and 1.5 Link to comment
GryphonGuy Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 5 hours ago, nonesup said: I would be wadding to share an experience that I am experiencing right now. My network configuration is: Router to Switch Aqvox to Melco and from this USB to DAC. I am currently reproducing Mozart's Sinfonia 40 from my Melco (not Streeming). I go to the kitchen and I disconnect the Ethernet cable that goes from the Router to the Aqvox. The sound instantly becomes "much more natural." This gives an idea of the amount of noise circulating on the network. And I think it will be the definitive test for EtherRegen, if disconnecting the same cable there is no change in the sound is that Uptone has succeeded. Does the same thing happen when you disconnect the ethernet from the Melco (instead of at the switch)? When talking differences in produced audio, I must say that the Uptone LPS-1.2 is one of just a few devices I have had over the years that an upmarket power cable made no obvious difference to the sound. That is testimony to the great design and isolation that the LPS-1.2 gives in my system, at least. The only other 2 devices where a power cable change made no appreciable difference to the sound produced were the Metronome Reference DAC and Mark Levinson CD Transport. Regards GG Superdad 1 Link to comment
nonesup Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 If I disconnect the ethernet cable from the Aqvox to the Melco, then sound stops playing. I guess it's because it's Aqvox acts as a DHCP server. There is nevertheless a way to do it. I can disconnect that cable and go to the Melco screen and play through the screen menu in Melco. For this I would have to activate Twonky (which is the software installed in the factory), which is disabled because I use Minimserver lately. Francisco Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref. MKII / Melco N1ZH60-2 / Audio Research Ref. 5 SE / Gryphon Essence Stereo / Rockport Atria I / Göbel XLR and RCA Cables / Göbel Ethernet and USB Cables / Sablon Ethernet Cabe / MIT Magnum MA Sepeakers Cables / Shunyata Everest 8000 / Shunyata Omega XC (1), Sigma NR V2 (3), Sigma NR V1(1) and Alfa NR V1 (2) / Paul Hynes SR7T for Melco S-100 Pink Faun Upgraded / Farad Super3 for IPS Modem-Router / Center Stage2 0.8, 1.0 and 1.5 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 4:02 AM, Superdad said: The GigaFOIL is a passive filter device. Only replying to your text of the GigaFOIL here, but if you don't want to discuss this product, that's fine of course. But it needs 5Vdc external power to work and uses optical isolation? Isn't that 'active' isolation? Isolation of the data, not incoming power of course. https://www.djmelectronics.com/gigafoilv4-inline-ethernet-filter.html Link to comment
LowMidHigh Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 13 hours ago, Em2016 said: Only replying to your text of the GigaFOIL here, but if you don't want to discuss this product, that's fine of course. But it needs 5Vdc external power to work and uses optical isolation? Isn't that 'active' isolation? Isolation of the data, not incoming power of course. https://www.djmelectronics.com/gigafoilv4-inline-ethernet-filter.html From their website: "However, these types of filters often eliminate the high frequencies that make up the sharp edges of high-speed digital square wave signals, thereby degrading the integrity of the signal." Don't you just love the smell of BS in the morning? Stereo [Genelec 1032C x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MC3+USB x 3 <-- REF10 SE120] <== [AERIS G2] <== [EtherRegen x 3] Chain switchable to [Genelec 8331 x 2 + 7350] Surround [Genelec 1032C x 3 + 8431 x 2 + 7360 x 2] <== [MiniDSP U-DIO8] <== [Mac Mini] Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted January 25, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 25, 2019 13 hours ago, Em2016 said: Only replying to your text of the GigaFOIL here, but if you don't want to discuss this product, that's fine of course. Well the FOIL units are serious devices of some sort, but reading through their patents does not reveal too much about how they accomplish the filtering the offer. 13 hours ago, Em2016 said: But it needs 5Vdc external power to work and uses optical isolation? No indication in the patent of what sort of chip devices they are actually using. I would be surprised if they using full-blown optical Ethernet transceivers as those can generate noise themselves. And I do not know of optical digital isolators that can operate at the data rates required for Gigabit Ethernet. 13 hours ago, Em2016 said: Isn't that 'active' isolation? Isolation of the data, not incoming power of course. Perhaps. Regardless, what we are doing is about separate ultra-low-jitter clock domains AND isolation. It sure will be interesting to compare once EtherREGEN is out in the wild. asdf1000, Sonic77 and greenleo 1 1 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 10 hours ago, Superdad said: Perhaps. No problem, I just wanted to point out that "Perhaps" is different to "The GigaFOIL is a passive filter device." Well aware of the expert chops John S is bringing to the Ether, and looking forward to getting one. Link to comment
greenleo Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Alex please bear my ignorant question. I recently come across with the idea of shunting a switch (or smps?) 1. If LPS-1.2 is used to power the switch, is shunting needed? 2. Does it applies to the EtherRegen as well? Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted January 29, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 9:12 PM, greenleo said: 1. If LPS-1.2 is used to power the switch, is shunting needed? 2. Does it applies to the EtherRegen as well? Good question. Allow me to explain step-by-step. Since: a) John has identified certain forms of AC leakage traveling over Ethernet cables--from computers, NAS, modems, other switches, etc. b) If both the magnetics and PHYs of an Ethernet switch are wired in a certain way (only a small percentage of commodity switches are), AND IF that switch is grounded to AC mains, then the high-source-impedance leakage coming into that switch from other sources will be minimized and not passed between ports (which is desirable in an audio system where one would like to keep such leakage currents out of the DAC-connected endpoint). Thus: a) For the EtherREGEN we have of course chosen magnetics (actually pretty special ones with 12 transformer cores per port) and PHY that are matched and wired to block port-to-port leakage. [While this is worthwhile it is far from being the key feature of the EtherREGEN's tech; John has found a few $20 switches that when grounded do this.] b) In order for the port-to-port leakage-shunting to occur the EtherREGEN must be somehow grounded (see next few points). c) The UpTone-branded 36W SMPS brick that will be included with the EtherREGEN (same model as what everyone receives as the charger for the UltraCap LPS-1.2 simply because I have no desire to stock a separate one) is already an internally "ground-shunted" design--meaning its zero-volt DC output "ground" is connected to AC mains ground. And since the EtherREGEN's DC input jack -VE "ground" is already common to half the power ground plane of the board, using our SMPS--or any power supply where you can confirm continuity between DC plug barrel and AC ground--you will be properly grounding the EtherREGEN such that its port-to-port leakage blocking is in effect. And finally (to your question): a) Our UltraCap power supplies, as well as batteries, our JS-2, and a few other LPS units have "floating" DC output zero-volt "grounds" (you see I always put the word ground in quotes because unless actually earth-grounded, the -VE, zero-volt--wire opposite to the +DC--is NOT ground). b) If powering the EtherREGEN with such a "floated" output power supply, it will be necessary to separately earth-ground the EtherREGEN in order to obtain port-to-port leakage blocking. The EtherREGEN has a ground terminal (it may be a pin jack or a thumbscrew—we have not finalized it) for just that purpose. Use of the ground terminal is not needed unless the power supply is of the "floating" variety as explained above. I hope the above is pretty clear. If it is not please let me know because I'm bookmarking what I just wrote for inclusion in the EtherREGEN's User Guide. bobfa, Elberoth, pl_svn and 2 others 1 1 3 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Bones13 Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 Does the JS-2 also have internal shunting? I notice there is not a grounding screw on the back panel. Would the etherRegen need to be separately grounded if using the JS-2? If so, would it be hard to have a ground terminal installed in the JS-2? I hope to avoid switching PSUs in the final configuration. I would be using the JS-2 to power the switch and the Roku. [Home Digital] MSB Premier DAC > Modright LS300 > Atma-Sphere "Class D" Monoblocks > Daedalus Audio Muse Studio Speakers [Home Analog] Technics SL-1200G > Boulder 508 (Benz Glider SL) [Office] Laptop > Kitsune R2R lvl3 > Violectric V281 > Meze Liric / Meze Elite [Travel] Laptop/iPad -> Focal Bathys Link to comment
BlueDL Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 36 minutes ago, Bones13 said: Does the JS-2 also have internal shunting? I notice there is not a grounding screw on the back panel. Would the etherRegen need to be separately grounded if using the JS-2? If so, would it be hard to have a ground terminal installed in the JS-2? I hope to avoid switching PSUs in the final configuration. I would be using the JS-2 to power the switch and the Roku. .......and in addition to the above, where would you recommend accessing the earth from (i.e. the opposite end to the solderless ground terminal on the power supply), in the AC feed to the SMPS perhaps? I guess you can buy mains sockets with grounding terminals if needs be. Thanks. Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 6 hours ago, Bones13 said: Does the JS-2 also have internal shunting? I notice there is not a grounding screw on the back panel. Would the etherRegen need to be separately grounded if using the JS-2? If so, would it be hard to have a ground terminal installed in the JS-2? I hope to avoid switching PSUs in the final configuration. I would be using the JS-2 to power the switch and the Roku. The JS-2 has both its outputs isolated from ground. To use one as the supply for the EtherRegen, you need an external safety ground connection, there are a couple ways to do this: buy a "ground plug" and connect the wire to the ground connector on the EtherRegen. The ground plug looks like a normal mains plug except only the ground pin is metal, the others are plastic. There is just one wire coming out of this special plug (usually green). You plug this into an outlet on the same power strip you plug the JS-2 into. You do need to get a ground plug that works with your country's AC sockets. The other option is the GroundHog from iFi, it is a kit that starts with an IEC SOCKET, into which you plug your own power cord (whatever works in your country), the output has various different adapters, one of which is a little spade lug that fits around the barrel of a standard DC barrel plug. Just clip this on to the plug going into the EtherRegen and it is grounded, simple to use, but fairly expensive. John S. Link to comment
HumanMedia Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 It would be great to offer one of those ground plugs as an optional paid extra for owners of JS-2? Link to comment
greenleo Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 @John S, Please bear with my question again. If a switch is already grounded (shunted? Which is the correct term), do I still need to use LAN cables that do not use metal caps at both ends? I'm told that plastic caps should be used but usually high quality RJ45 caps are with metals. Link to comment
Bones13 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 11 hours ago, HumanMedia said: It would be great to offer one of those ground plugs as an optional paid extra for owners of JS-2? I was thinking of a grounding screw addition to the back plate of the JS-2 similar to a grounding screw for turntable grounding. I assume (?) that the JS-2 chassis is grounded to earth via the power cord. Simply drilling a hole, and installing a good looking screw terminal (cleaning off some aluminum coating on the inside if needed) would provide correct grounding. [Home Digital] MSB Premier DAC > Modright LS300 > Atma-Sphere "Class D" Monoblocks > Daedalus Audio Muse Studio Speakers [Home Analog] Technics SL-1200G > Boulder 508 (Benz Glider SL) [Office] Laptop > Kitsune R2R lvl3 > Violectric V281 > Meze Liric / Meze Elite [Travel] Laptop/iPad -> Focal Bathys Link to comment
R1200CL Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 11 hours ago, greenleo said: @John S, Please bear with my question again. If a switch is already grounded (shunted? Which is the correct term), do I still need to use LAN cables that do not use metal caps at both ends? I'm told that plastic caps should be used but usually high quality RJ45 caps are with metals. The Audioquest Vodka as an example use metal plugs but they are not connected by the shielding. If you purchase cables that Is FTP (which mean shielded) with metal plugs, you probably have a problem. It you make or purchase ethernet cables according to JSSG 360, you should expect to get the best possible cable. The metal plugs in this design is not connected to the shield, and they are probably also adding some EMC/RFI protection. Link to comment
Superdad Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, Bones13 said: Does the JS-2 also have internal shunting? No it does not. As mentioned, the DC outputs of the JS-2 are "floated." That is, their zero-volt -VE DC jack shells are not connected to AC mains ground. We go to a lot of trouble (using on the regulators hand-cut/punched high performance thermal pads that are also electrically isolating) to accomplish this--the idea being "Why go to the trouble of building a very low-noise LPS only to invite back in some of the house mains ground grunge?" [For safety the JS-2 chassis and transformer shield are connected to AC mains ground--via the AC power inlet/cord's ground pin.] Let's back up to be clear about what the point of so-called "ground-shunting"--making DC output common to AC mains--is for in relation to power supplies: Switch-mode power supplies have a LOT of AC leakage current (over a VERY broad range of frequencies--from 60Hz on up over 1MHz) due to their design and required use of 'Y' capacitors across their transformers. I am not going to rewrite the full explanation about the two forms of leakage coming out of SMPS units and how the common low-source-impedance ("touch current") form is hard to block yet the lesser-known, high-source-impedance form is simple to get rid of by shunting the -VE of the SMPS to ground. John and I have written extensively about this--and published measurements--elsewhere on this forum. But I want to remind people that although any power supply connected to the AC line will have some leakage, linear power supplies, depending upon their transformer type, have vastly less than any SMPS. Thus there is no reason for us to "ground-shunt" a JS-2. On 1/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, Bones13 said: I notice there is not a grounding screw on the back panel. Would the etherRegen need to be separately grounded if using the JS-2? Yes, and in my detailed explanation of EtherREGEN grounding I said just that. For any use of a "floating" output power supply--be it an UltraCap supply, a JS-2, batteries, or some other brand of LPS (or even someone's ungrounded SMPS)--it will then be desirable to earth-ground the EtherREGEN so that it can be effective at its port-to-port blocking of leakage that may arrive to it from Ethernet cables that are connected to computers and other devices powered by SMPS. On 1/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, Bones13 said: If so, would it be hard to have a ground terminal installed in the JS-2? I hope to avoid switching PSUs in the final configuration. I would be using the JS-2 to power the switch and the Roku. We are providing a ground terminal on the EtherREGEN. That is the place to accomplish this. There is no need for a ground terminal on the JS-2. It would only confuse people. On 1/29/2019 at 10:16 AM, BlueDL said: .......and in addition to the above, where would you recommend accessing the earth from (i.e. the opposite end to the solderless ground terminal on the power supply), in the AC feed to the SMPS perhaps? Where you get the earth ground--for an EtherREGEN powered by a floating PS--is not critical. Heck you could use a ground or chassis screw on your preamp or power amp if you first use a meter to confirm that its chassis is common to your AC wall ground. (And remember the PS that will come included with the EtherREGEN is already ground-shunted so no separate wire is needed at all if you use the SMPS we provide.) On 1/29/2019 at 10:16 AM, BlueDL said: I guess you can buy mains sockets with grounding terminals if needs be. Thanks. Hmm... never seen a wall socket with room-facing ground terminal. But really there is no need to go to such lengths. Every hardware store in the world sells AC plugs that you can screw wires to (for repair or to make extension cords), and most all of those have a ground pin. One of those with just a single wire screwed to the ground terminal is perfectly safe. While John posted a photo of a purpose-made plastic/metal grounding plug (typically sold for use with anti-static grounding straps), such are useful only in the USA and I have no plans to include one with the EtherREGEN for the minority of users who might need to ground their EtherREGENs. I have not been able to find similar items for overseas mains outlets. John also mentioned the iFi GroundHog, which comes with various worldwide plugs. I honestly don't think think the grounding issue is that complicated. There are plenty of simple options. 14 hours ago, HumanMedia said: It would be great to offer one of those ground plugs as an optional paid extra for owners of JS-2? Please read all the above. Truly no need for such. 3 hours ago, Bones13 said: I was thinking of a grounding screw addition to the back plate of the JS-2 similar to a grounding screw for turntable grounding. I assume (?) that the JS-2 chassis is grounded to earth via the power cord. Simply drilling a hole, and installing a good looking screw terminal (cleaning off some aluminum coating on the inside if needed) would provide correct grounding. Please don't do this to a lovely JS-2. No need. Cheers all! --Alex C. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
BlueDL Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, Superdad said: mm... never seen a wall socket with room-facing ground terminal. I was thinking of this: https://www.russandrews.com/supersocket-double-with-earth-terminal/ But this is a UK socket which would obviously only benefit the minority of customers. From what you’ve stated on this topic, I’m leaning towards using the shunted SMPS and keeping things simple. Link to comment
Bones13 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I found where I will be grounding mine (when available) Accessory Ground terminal on my power conditioner (Bryston BIT15) [Home Digital] MSB Premier DAC > Modright LS300 > Atma-Sphere "Class D" Monoblocks > Daedalus Audio Muse Studio Speakers [Home Analog] Technics SL-1200G > Boulder 508 (Benz Glider SL) [Office] Laptop > Kitsune R2R lvl3 > Violectric V281 > Meze Liric / Meze Elite [Travel] Laptop/iPad -> Focal Bathys Link to comment
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