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Good Class D amps ??


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7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Wow!  I had no idea she was married - honest!

  I was not worried about you. She told me you look a bit screwy to her.

Ralf11

?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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22 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

Anyway. Back to topic.

 

The Nords are in the house. Been running them around the clock for the past 2 days. Won't say much before a couple more days of burning in. At the moment they do sound better than my NC400 but not much. They sound completely different than the NuPrime ST-10.

 

Given that, we should stop lumping all class-D into 1 bucket. They each have their own character and sound.

 

 do you leave your amps on 24/7?    I find leaving on the ST-10 has benefits.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

speaking of such... is there anyway to prevent Deep State from winning the NCAA foootball chumpionship this year?

  Not really at this time. 

 

But someone figured out how to put an end to kneeling at the NFL games.

 

Just before the National Anthem is given?   The announcer broadcasts over the PA..

 

"Ladies and Gentlemen!

 

We have implemented a new option for our National Anthem.

 

You can stand as we have always done before.

 

But, if you so choose .. 

 

You can now kneel in prayer to thank God for our wonderful country ." 

 

 

I think that would solve the problem. ?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Let them fill in the blanks.  Just give thanks for the god of their choice for our wonderful country that right now has malcontents trying to drag others down with them.  The same country that gives them the freedom to choose the god of their choice!

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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I think one issue in evaluation is maybe being missed.  Does the amp reverse polarity?  My DAC has a polarity button so its easy to check.  One amp may be failing when compared to another in an area because it has its polarity the opposite position than the other amp being evaluated.   Has that been noted in testing?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

Yes. the ST10 reverses polarity and it has been compensated by reversing the speaker terminals.

 

 

I suppose all amps polarity are known then?   My preamp also reverses polarity. A DAC might as well.  I know this sounds finicky.  But did you try the amps in the opposite polarity as well?  I mean by that,  try them all with one polarity.  Then listen again with it reversed once more.  In critical listening like this it can matter.

 

I find power cords will make difference.  And,  ahhhem,... fuses.   But, be that as it may.   I can not understand how you found the ST 10 as "dry."  Did you have it only turned on a short while? Leave it on over night and you may be in for a surprise.  I also have the PS Audio S300 and neither sound dry with my system.

 

So many variables involved.   Cables,  fuses,  IC's.. Speakers.  I believe that reviews often times are reporting about how a piece of equipment interacts in their own particular system.  A good review should require access to a healthy number of speakers and peripheral components.

 

I have learned..  I may not care for a component in my system that another person would love in his system.  These tests are hard to evaluate as definitive. But just the same.. I have heard a good number of amps in my system.. which has also evolved.  So?  Hopefully we will eventually find what satisfies after our willingness to enter the quest to discover.

 

Its not defensiveness about the ST-10, because I own one.  Just never considered the one I have as being 'dry.'  I heard both a stock unit that I auditioned before buying the TDSS modded one that I now have. I even did a mini review for it in the Nuprime forum. Dry was not one of its traits.   That's why my response.

 

I am almost positive in another system it may in fact interact and sound dry.  That is why we all need to become our own reviewers if we are ever going to land in our listening room with all wheels touching down at the same moment.

 

If what I am hearing is dry?   I would like to hear what is not.  I have auditioned a good number of amps over the years.  Including tubes.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

So take it with a grain of salt. My comparison is just another data point and is definitely not definitive. :)

 

 

  

 

Well... others can take this with a grain of salt also.  But this review was made three years ago.  I was listening at that time single ended. Since then I have tried balanced connections and find the benefits worth making a change for.  That is when I decided to get the ST-10. In the review I was not ready to make any change. 

 

Here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134516.msg1428384#msg1428384

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A system is a system. An excellent rule of thumb is that the closer one is to the "ideal", the more the one outstanding weak link will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, and haunt you until you get rid of it.

 

Will an "excellent" amplifier make your rig sound magical? ... ummm, will the best tyres you can buy turn your old bomb of a car into a magical driving experience ... ?

 

Any change I make in my present system quickly reveals what the difference is. 

 

It only took me 50 years, or so, to finally put together such a system. So,  its not as if I am some super audiophile who knew what he was doing from the start. Just lots of research and development (aka, mistakes) were made over the years. 

 

I have learned...   If I used certain interconnects?  Or certain speaker cables?  Or,  power cords?   Detecting such changes might make me think those who talk about fuses and power cords as impressionable jerks. Each piece of equipment is part of a team for transparency.  I am pretty sure there are speakers out there that would make such differences undetectable. Any weak link in the chain would be able to nullify the greatness of everything else in a system. We are involved with an art, not just science.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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I learned a big lesson back in the 70's.  I had the luxury of working for a quality audio shop.  I landed a traded in McIntosh MC 275. KT88's.  I had the amp refurbished.  Next trophy, was getting a tip from the shop and went to another shop to buy a used McIntosh C-20 tube preamp. That too I had refurbished.   No one today would dare fault that front end today as junk.  They go for premium prices as vintage equipment.

 

But what happened?   I took home from the shop various speakers to audition.  Dalquist DQ 10's sounded horrible in my room.  Was the amp to fault?   I had no way to know.  At first I was wondering if the Mac was worth it.  Then I tried some Bang and Olufsen Phase-link  speakers.  Totally different sound and much tighter, but bright.  Made the Mac sound opposite to the DQ 10's.  Was the amp to blame?   I tried another B&O  Its little brother.  Best sound balance of the bunch as far as accuracy and imaging  Today it would have been great for nearfield listening.   But, the sound with distance listening was too small.  I wondered if those Mac tube units were not really  that good after all.  Just warmer sounding than the solid state units I heard.

 

Then one day I asked permission and was told I could take home a pair of KEF 104ab's to audition.  To me they looked plain and conventional.  I hooked them up.  It was as if I walked in on a surprise birthday party.  It happened. I never knew how good that amp could sound!  Taught me a huge lesson when it comes to evaluating equipment.

 

The Dalquist DQ 10's would have sounded better on a solid state amp because the Mac's damping control lost the DQ 10's. The DQ 10's had terrible bass control on their own.

 

Well...  about five years ago I heard a small pair of Definitive Audio Pro Monitor 800's when starting my first serious desktop system.  If they did not vibrate my desk I would have kept them. Those speakers under the right conditions can sound dreamy.  But they vibrated all over the place in my system...  Was it the amp's fault? (Amber 50b)  Other speakers with that same amp did not cause such vibrations.  

 

In five words....   "We need to luck out."

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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9 hours ago, Matias said:

Isolate from the desk with IsoAcoustics products, they work great.

 

 

Definitive Audio Pro Monitor 800's?      Not to be done.

 

  ? Great little speakers for desktop if you have means for bass reinforcement. 

 

They are tiny and only have three legs built in. Too small for Iso Acoustics  (which I have)...............................93207060922_studio_front_back.png

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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7 hours ago, 4est said:

Luck out? Previously I have seen you state that there weren't speakers that dipped into 2 ohms that might challenge an amp.

 

 

That's how I came across?    I was speaking of speakers rated at 2 Ohms. (which is how the premise was worded).  Not speakers that simply dip into 2 Ohms.  Meaning,  some speakers dip near to zero ohms.

 

Like here!  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18325.0

 

The "luck" I spoke of was finding the right combination of an entire system coming together.   One variable can cause you not to know how much good potential your system really has.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, Matias said:

   Thanks.   Good to know. Those pucks were no being sold when I had the speakers.  I really liked them in my set up at that time.  Just vibrated the desk like crazy... 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Not disagreeing with you on the back and forth, but the end user (consumer) of speakers is better served by looking at the "dip" as opposed to the rating.  Since there is a rating game going on, the rating is as often as not not informative.  So the "dip" becomes a more useful data point.  Often, the "dip" is down around in the mid bass where there is alot of musical energy (particularly in modern genres) and so the consumer should be interested how the amp/speaker are going to perform there...

Now we know that... and many still do not.   They see the ohm rating listed in the specs and that will be their frame of reference. When someone says they have a two ohm speaker?  I assume there will be a dip and cause many amps problems.  No problem...

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Perhaps you might like to start a separate thread on this? Strongly stabilising the speakers has always been an essential part of my 'method', and the better one does it, the better the end results.

 

Fas 42....   Start the tread and give us a heads up.

..   

Sorry for the hassle Ral11.. 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 12/22/2018 at 8:34 AM, Matias said:

I would really like to see NuPrime's measurements like the typical THD x power graphs by frequency, as ICEpower and hypex use. I could not find any measurements on their website or manuals... Not that I am an objectivist only but still I enjoy analyzing the differences. Specially with all the hype around the Evolution One.

 

 

You are going to decide on measurements?  Who has bad measurements today?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, Matias said:

@GeneZ ICEpower ASP has quite a bit of THD in 6.67kHz compared to the newer ASX2 and AS, or the nCores. And they are still being sold today (Rotel RB-1091 and W4S SX1000R for example).

 

I decide on both measurements and listening. Just bought my Apollon NC800SL PRO a few weeks ago.

  Nuprime does not use off the shelf modules like most other companies utilize. They design and manufacture their own.  I have not heard all.  But, I have heard one company using an ICE module. If I heard nothing else I would simply say it sounded very good, and better than any AB amp I have heard in my system. But, having a Nuprime ST-10 made a nicer difference.   Considering its also been (factory approved) modded by TDSS which makes it quieter yet... I am not sure what folks here are looking for.

 

One thing I believe is true.  If one has to nit pic on what I call ultra measurements?  We really do not know what they are looking for.  In a sense? ..  None of us do until after the purchase. Of course, we all want to make an intelligent decision.  But, there comes a point where we simply must find out for ourselves, unless we enjoy the discussion of possibilities equally well. 🧐

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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39 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It's like the public service - the most important thing is to Cover Your Arse. "I awarded the contract to the company that provided the most paperwork - that had the most impressively presented metrics, graphs all over the place ... the fact they were incompetent in getting the job done is quite irrelevant, really B|"

 I just got this the other day in a newsletter.. I does a good job of describing the different kind of persons who buy audio. I thought it was spot on. .   Interesting read:   https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/bose-conundrum

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Nuforce is no longer in business.  The Nuforce STA 200 was a class AB amp was designed in part by Goldmund - as in the JOB amplifier. 

 

Nuprime was created to transfer the high end line of Nuforce, and to continue with only that level of product.

 

These links provide some significant measurements of some of amplifiers, and the new the Nuprime Evolution Amp..

 

https://totallywired.nz/nuprime-2/nuprime-evolution-one/

 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/nuprime-st-10-power-amp/

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, esldude said:

 

Where are the measurements in those links?

  

Measurements?   What ones are you looking for in particular?   Will they tell you how good/bad it will sound?

 

Some specs are given while the reviews I linked was being written.  Input impedance,  switching frequency, etc. 

 

Look.  I am biased.   The ST-10 I own.  I used to own a MC275.  Nuprime captures a unique midrange that I have only heard with tubes. Specs?  This much I found online...

 

  • Power Output: 150W x 2 at 8 Ohms; 150W x 2 @ 4 Ohms
  • Gain: X 28
  • Input Impedance: 23.5k Ohms
  • 12V trigger input. It can use any standard male to male 3.5mm (3-pin type) cable.
  • Sensitivity: 0.89 V to rated power
  • THD+N: 0.01%
  • Frequency Response: 0 Hz to 50kHz (-3dB)
  • S/N Ratio: 91dB @ 10W

 

The signal to noise ratio I believe was effected when Nuprime decided to add selective even order harmonics to capture that tube sound I mentioned.  Its the end result that counts.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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I think (within reason) that measurements are not the means.  That is, as long as everything measures fine within reason?  Nothing measuring horribly?

 

Back in the day when I was on the scent of tube equipment - at a time when tubes definitely sounded better to me than solid state.  I was told by someone in the audio world...  "Solid state does not sound as good because its too accurate."... (as he pulled out a sheet with some measurements to show me how they were superior.)

 

I then learned to take measurements (as long as they are decent) with a grain of salt.  

 

Its all really a matter of... "Well?  .. How does it sound?"

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, Matias said:

@GeneZ I agree, by no means I am 100% objectivist. Heck, my system has a lot of expensive power cords, fuses and tweaks. I totally agree with you that "how does it sound" is the golden rule. Still, those measurements are interesting and should tell part of the story.

 

And with NuPrime being so hyped lately, I wonder how much better their measurements could get than the already fantastic nCore NC500.

  Give you an example....  The few who know me think I am too "detail oriented."

 

All my efforts to improve the sound... which does happened in small increments at a time... As of late, it came as a surprise.  Just one power cord to my DAC transforms the entire system.  I can place the same PC on the NuPrime amp and that too will change the sound.  But, on the DAC?  That changes everything.  Its like upgrading my amp and preamp.

 

We are sometimes looking in the wong place...

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Why not cut to the chase? 

 

Someone ought to manufacture an amplifier and call it...   "The .00001 THD."

 

It would eventually gain the nickname...   "Are you Happy Now?  Amp."

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

Why not cut to the chase:

 

"...Just one power cord to my DAC transforms the entire system..."

 

its nickname would be...Audiophile!  Or would that be Audiophool?

 

I know you are just phooling. 

 

I know you have good ears and can hear such differences. Right? ... RIGHT? ....RIGHT?.....RIGHT!?  Hello? 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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17 minutes ago, audio.bill said:

Maybe this was mentioned previously, but to be clear (given the subject of this thread) the Benchmark AHB2 power amp is not a Class D design. To quote from their website: "The AHB2 has a bipolar class-AB output stage." It uses some unique error cancelling technology and "achieves a power efficiency that rivals that of a Class D (switching) power amplifier."

  Yet ,Benchmark does use a very Class D type technology in its design!

 

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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