Good Class D amps ??

[GeneZ]

What if we found out that if we finally achieved the theoretically perfect home system?   That the music and how it was recorded would not sound as good without some help from system coloration?

 

And, that our home system could never be a recreation of the actual event?  Our home system becomes its own event in its own right?  That we need to make our own event by how we put together our home audio system?

 

It can never sound like the actual event did. And, in theory, may end up sounding even better.  

 

I have witnessed to this myself by hearing playback of recordings of a live band I was in years ago.  The recording (in my opinion) made us sound better to listen to than being there.

 

So... we must discover what combinations of colorations suits us just fine. And, leave all the opinions of others walking down a path having no end. Find what you need to enjoy and have your own home system be truly our own.  Not a slave to trying to please the opinions of others who constantly wander seeking today's ideal that is not really the answer needed.   For, when does distortion become a none issue? 

[esldude]

45 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

What if we found out that if we finally achieved the theoretically perfect home system?   That the music and how it was recorded would not sound as good without some help from system coloration?

 

And, that our home system could never be a recreation of the actual event?  Our home system becomes its own event in its own right?  That we need to make our own event by how we put together our home audio system?

 

It can never sound like the actual event did. And, in theory, may end up sounding even better.  

 

I have witnessed to this myself by hearing playback of recordings of a live band I was in years ago.  The recording (in my opinion) made us sound better to listen to than being there.

 

So... we must discover what combinations of colorations suits us just fine. And, leave all the opinions of others walking down a path having no end. Find what you need to enjoy and have your own home system be truly our own.  Not a slave to trying to please the opinions of others who constantly wander seeking today's ideal that is not really the answer needed.   For, when does distortion become a none issue? 

This isn't much different than my thinking.

 

I think we should have all the playback fully transparent. Then use DSP to flavor to each person's taste.

 

But we've these disagreements where people don't wish to believe the transparency of most gear because they prefer a group of colorations which they consider evidence of superior Fidelity. Which leads to confused and profitable chasing of ghosts.

[Matias]

That is why I find interesting to have lowest distortion on nCores and color at will with buffers and opamps to suit ones system and taste.

[John769]

On 1/20/2019 at 5:17 PM, mocenigo said:

Note that Apollon's amplifiers have an astonishingly low noise floor because of the way the buffer is designed.......................................which look less than perfect in the Bellissimo and Nord designs, and a close look at the buffers in my Apollons shows a lot of care.

Thanks for the info.  The latest Nord buffer has been redesigned BTW..

 

Quote

In addition to the use of audio grade polystyrene capacitors throughout, the new topology has allowed fine-tuning of the supporting circuitry and improved noise and RFI counter measures.

 

https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/131659-nord-one-up-se-nc500dm-mk-ii-power-amplifier/

 

My plan is to try the NC500 with recently acquired Tannoy Berkeley speakers (91dB/m, 8ohm). Their reconed HPD 385 drivers are rated to 120 watts RMS, so the Ncores (100 watts continuous) are at the upper end of power I would be inclined to drive them with.

[fas42]

Rule of thumb: the more technically precise the chain is, the harder it will be to make it "sound good". Why? Because the 'precision' makes remaining anomalies stand out in sharp relief - you clean a surface, it looks fine; but you shine a strong, narrow beam light on it - it's still filthy! ... So, you're going to have to get a "better cleaning cloth" ...

 

Am I talking about the recordings? No, a big no!! The "better cleaning cloth" has to be applied to the playback chain - its sins are what are taking away the pleasure in the listening; reducing the intensity of the spotlight is not the answer - but every aspect of its behaviour must be impeccable, especially in the areas which are never measured.

[Matias]

Here is also a review of my former W4S STI-500v2 integrated amplifier.

https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/125440-wyred-4-sound-sti-500-v2-integrated-amplifier/

 

I can add that using it in bypass mode and a high end preamp such as the W4S STP-SE stage 2 did wonders to lift the performance. It really is another level in resolution, dynamics and finesse. So there is an upgrade path, buying the integrated first then adding a dedicated high end preamp later.

[crenca]

22 hours ago, Matias said:

 

Hear it for yourself: 

 

 

Thanks.  A defensive of the artisan status quo, that an an advertisement for his company...

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Thanks.  A defensive of the artisan status quo, that an an advertisement for his company...

  You're obviously missing the point.  The one he was making in spite of the fact that he is world renown at what he does.

[crenca]

 

8 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  You're obviously missing the point.  The one he was making in spite of the fact that he is world renown at what he does.

 

Nope, the point is made again and again and again.  Anyone who has been in audiophiledom more than a day already understands that measurements such as THD are correlated with good sound quality, but are not the exact measurement of SQ, that a bit of 2nd and 3rd order distortion (but not too much) is liked by many (most?) and is why tubes have stuck around, etc. etc.  The video is just more of the same.  

 

The real point of the video is to sell Dan's "world renown" art in coming up with just the right amount of "mystery" (his word) distortion so that the sound is "musical".  Same old same old.

 

Your a happy customer however 😋

[GeneZ]

58 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

 

Nope, the point is made again and again and again.  Anyone who has been in audiophiledom more than a day already understands that measurements such as THD are correlated with good sound quality, but are not the exact measurement of SQ, that a bit of 2nd and 3rd order distortion (but not too much) is liked by many (most?) and is why tubes have stuck around, etc. etc.  The video is just more of the same.  

 

The real point of the video is to sell Dan's "world renown" art in coming up with just the right amount of "mystery" (his word) distortion so that the sound is "musical".  Same old same old.

 

Your a happy customer however 😋

  Do you enjoy your system?  Could it be better?  Have you already heard better? 

 

What are we looking for?  

[GeneZ]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:03 PM, crenca said:

 

I don't know about Dan, but yes Pass does investigate and "builds in" 2nd order distortion and the like because folks like it.  This "coloring" is known (if not well understood) and part of the Audiophile world.  Its relationship to fidelity is controversial.  GeneZ point is the common art and wine radical subjectivism with the strawmen "how does it sound", etc. and is the usual trope.

 

On topic, THD and the like are relevant, correlated to the sound, etc.  It's not the end of the story, but it is part of it...

Do you know how you sound?  How your response resonates?

[crenca]

4 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  Do you enjoy your system?  Could it be better?  Have you already heard better? 

 

What are we looking for?  

 

2 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

Do you know how you sound?  How your response resonates?

 

Blah blah blah radical subjectivist trolling...your barking up the wrong tree.

 

Dan, Pass, and the like are the folks whom you want to discuss your feelings with, the "mystery" of the musical 😋

[Matias]

Please move objective x subjective to another topic... My point was to compare their measurements, not the merits of such comparison. Let us keep talking Good class D here please.

[crenca]

2 minutes ago, Matias said:

Please move objective x subjective to another topic... My point was to compare their measurements, not the merits of such comparison. Let us keep talking Good class D here please.

 

The merits of measurement comparisons are exactly on topic in that they are related (if controversially) to what a "good" class D is.  The problem is that someone inevitably does not like measurements and how they question a purely art and wine evaluation (such as GeneZ).

[GeneZ]

Well?   Where are we today with all the measurements?

 

Its helps. Yes..  But its not to become an idol to bow down to and worship as some seem to be doing. 

 

Has anyone in the past been enthralled with their audio system?   Or, are we seeking to be the first one?

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

The merits of measurement comparisons are exactly on topic in that they are related (if controversially) to what a "good" class D is.  The problem is that someone inevitably does not like measurements and how they question a purely art and wine evaluation (such as GeneZ).

  I like measurements.....  within reason.   I found things that were not being measured for to improve the sound.

[Ralf11]

28 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  I like measurements.....  within reason.   I found things that were not being measured for to improve the sound.

 

list?

 

or examples?

[GeneZ]

Things you apparently believe others like me imagine hearing when using.  Things you do not hear, so insist can not be real unless someone figures out how to measure them first... so, you then can know you have  an inability to hear certain things that others can and freely share about with others that also can . 

[Ralf11]

if you are not able to provide a list or examples, then either say so or remain silent

[fas42]

1 hour ago, GeneZ said:

 

Has anyone in the past been enthralled with their audio system?   Or, are we seeking to be the first one?

 

This should be the goal .. because it's what's on the recordings that is enthralling; flaws in the rig are the key elements that are in the way of achieving this experience - so, you have to work on improving things, in ways that are not easily measurable ...

 

Those with an 'objectivist' bent are obsessed with the concept that conventional measurements are good enough to tell the whole story. Because, the Important People have said so ... meantime, in the real world, lots of people have found this is hokum, by using various approaches to push the SOTA. The objectivists jump up and down in rage, insisting that people are using distortion to sweeten the sound - ummm, red herring, anyone?

 

A big problem is inertia - the audio business has fallen into a major pothole in its thinking, and only some are trying to get out, let alone even realise that they're trapped in this attitude dead-end.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

A big problem is inertia - the audio business has fallen into a major pothole in its thinking, and only some are trying to get out, let alone even realise that they're trapped in this attitude dead-end.

 

 

Its the listeners that have fallen into inertia first.  When listeners are a happy people and vigorous even a little "sh_t box" playing music by a band having a genuinely good time sells stereos and recordings.   When it becomes a controlled and standardized industry the listeners will tend to become jaded and the thrill fades .  Creativity when its best is spontaneous and joyful ... not matter, even if its the blues.. When everything gets controlled and standardized a type of "smiley face" sadness takes over. 

 

Its all about the cultural values that ends up making a people unhappy.   Or, happy. The music/audio industry is simply a mirror,  not the cause.

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

list?

 

or examples?

   Do you know that some scientists believe that those who find true love can be measured?    Though, they have not found true love themselves?  How ironic life can be!

[esldude]

12 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

   Do you know that some scientists believe that those who find true love can be measured?    Though, they have not found true love themselves?  How ironic life can be!

Life can be ironic. But this is no example. I can measure height without being tall. If love is measurable, there no reason it can't be measured by some one not in love.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Life can be ironic. But this is no example. I can measure height without being tall. If love is measurable, there no reason it can't be measured by some one not in love.

  What science can only measure is sexual arousal and euphoria... by hormones present in the body.   But,  that's not love. That is why amplifier measurements are not enough to know which amp will sound the best.   Though measurements will be valid in showing which amps will sound bad.

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

This should be the goal .. because it's what's on the recordings that is enthralling; flaws in the rig are the key elements that are in the way of achieving this experience - so, you have to work on improving things, in ways that are not easily measurable ...

 

Those with an 'objectivist' bent are obsessed with the concept that conventional measurements are good enough to tell the whole story. Because, the Important People have said so ... meantime, in the real world, lots of people have found this is hokum, by using various approaches to push the SOTA. The objectivists jump up and down in rage, insisting that people are using distortion to sweeten the sound - ummm, red herring, anyone?

 

A big problem is inertia - the audio business has fallen into a major pothole in its thinking, and only some are trying to get out, let alone even realise that they're trapped in this attitude dead-end.

The best sounding systems in my life were some of the worst sounding by today's standard.  What we see often times today in reviews is like telling a depressed person to have happy thoughts and the depression will go away.  A great sounding audio system is 90% how one feels to begin with. One of the symptoms of depression is the inability to enjoy normal things.  Can what is considered a great audio system make a depressed person to not be depressed?  Or,  simply be distracted for a moment in time?

 

If someone could make me feel 14 again?  I would have absolutely loved many of the systems I have owned. If it can be done for age 12?  Other styles of music would have been fully enjoyable.  

 

There is a mystery at work when it comes to music enjoyment. Its got to do with how we feel inside to begin with.  The music only finds a welcoming opening to fill. If that opening is not there?  It can be a 100,000 system, and be "meh."