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Good Class D amps ??


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On 12/3/2018 at 12:55 PM, Matias said:

 

And I ended up ordering yesterday the Apollon NC800 SL with Sparkos opamp, but I am going to test the SI from a friend as well.

 

If someone suspects I am affiliated with Mivera that post above should make it very clear that I am not.

1. Sonore ultraRendu - UpTone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
2. LG 65UM7470PSA - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NCore MP mch - Monitor Audio Platinum PL100+PLC150 - SVS SB-3000
3. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP
4. TempoTec Sonata E44 - Audeze LCDi3
5. Meizu HiFi DAC - Moondrop Aria

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

speaking of such... is there anyway to prevent Deep State from winning the NCAA foootball chumpionship this year?

  Not really at this time. 

 

But someone figured out how to put an end to kneeling at the NFL games.

 

Just before the National Anthem is given?   The announcer broadcasts over the PA..

 

"Ladies and Gentlemen!

 

We have implemented a new option for our National Anthem.

 

You can stand as we have always done before.

 

But, if you so choose .. 

 

You can now kneel in prayer to thank God for our wonderful country ." 

 

 

I think that would solve the problem. ?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Let them fill in the blanks.  Just give thanks for the god of their choice for our wonderful country that right now has malcontents trying to drag others down with them.  The same country that gives them the freedom to choose the god of their choice!

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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A week ago I compared my Wyred 4 Sound STI-500v2 integrated, based on 2 x ICEpower 125ASX2, against a friend's Nord NC500 stereo amplifier with Sparkos SS3602 opamps. Since I had no preamp, to make things comparable, I set the integrated to bypass the XLR inputs and used the Sabre based volume control of my Femto DAC for both. Volume was around 60-70 during the session with my Thiel CS3.7 speakers.

 

The STI-500 v2 is very good, but the Nord was a little better. Tonality was similar, but the Nord had a little better clarity specially on the mids and lows, which also extended a little lower with better control. Voices were also a little better defined and details and separation also a touch better. Highs were kind of similar imo.

 

It was not an big difference, but enough to justify an upgrade, in my case to the Apollon NC800 SL with the larger Sparkos SS2590 opamps . And also add a dedicated preamp too, probably a W4S STP-SE level 2. Compared to the price of such a preamp + power amp + cables combo, the W4S integrated has the better value though.

1. Sonore ultraRendu - UpTone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
2. LG 65UM7470PSA - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NCore MP mch - Monitor Audio Platinum PL100+PLC150 - SVS SB-3000
3. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP
4. TempoTec Sonata E44 - Audeze LCDi3
5. Meizu HiFi DAC - Moondrop Aria

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I think one issue in evaluation is maybe being missed.  Does the amp reverse polarity?  My DAC has a polarity button so its easy to check.  One amp may be failing when compared to another in an area because it has its polarity the opposite position than the other amp being evaluated.   Has that been noted in testing?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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22 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

I think one issue in evaluation is maybe being missed.  Does the amp reverse polarity?  My DAC has a polarity button so its easy to check.  One amp may be failing when compared to another in an area because it has its polarity the opposite position than the other amp being evaluated.   Has that been noted in testing?

Yes. the ST10 reverses polarity and it has been compensated by reversing the speaker terminals.

 

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1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

Yes. the ST10 reverses polarity and it has been compensated by reversing the speaker terminals.

 

 

I suppose all amps polarity are known then?   My preamp also reverses polarity. A DAC might as well.  I know this sounds finicky.  But did you try the amps in the opposite polarity as well?  I mean by that,  try them all with one polarity.  Then listen again with it reversed once more.  In critical listening like this it can matter.

 

I find power cords will make difference.  And,  ahhhem,... fuses.   But, be that as it may.   I can not understand how you found the ST 10 as "dry."  Did you have it only turned on a short while? Leave it on over night and you may be in for a surprise.  I also have the PS Audio S300 and neither sound dry with my system.

 

So many variables involved.   Cables,  fuses,  IC's.. Speakers.  I believe that reviews often times are reporting about how a piece of equipment interacts in their own particular system.  A good review should require access to a healthy number of speakers and peripheral components.

 

I have learned..  I may not care for a component in my system that another person would love in his system.  These tests are hard to evaluate as definitive. But just the same.. I have heard a good number of amps in my system.. which has also evolved.  So?  Hopefully we will eventually find what satisfies after our willingness to enter the quest to discover.

 

Its not defensiveness about the ST-10, because I own one.  Just never considered the one I have as being 'dry.'  I heard both a stock unit that I auditioned before buying the TDSS modded one that I now have. I even did a mini review for it in the Nuprime forum. Dry was not one of its traits.   That's why my response.

 

I am almost positive in another system it may in fact interact and sound dry.  That is why we all need to become our own reviewers if we are ever going to land in our listening room with all wheels touching down at the same moment.

 

If what I am hearing is dry?   I would like to hear what is not.  I have auditioned a good number of amps over the years.  Including tubes.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Amp polarity is known. The ST10 is supposed to inverse phase, while the Nord doesn't. However, I did try to experiment with phase and I kept them at what is spec'ed.

 

I understand your concern. I have kept all associated equipment the same, same cables, same speaker, preamp. everything.

 

Now I just want to point out that this is just the evaluation in one system, there can be issues with synergy with other component, synergy with the room, etc. I may not be maximizing something coz maybe the ST10 need some cable and mine wasn't the one but that one I have works well with the Hypexes. Could be, I don't know. But I know if I started using different cables, then it will be less of a apples to apples comparison. But it is a comparison nonetheless and that's what my ears tells me. Which brings another point is that this is what I hear and I try to be as discerning as I can but my ears are not yours and every pair of ears are different and everyone have different experiences and preferences.

 

So take it with a grain of salt. My comparison is just another data point and is definitely not definitive. :)

 

 

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2 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

So take it with a grain of salt. My comparison is just another data point and is definitely not definitive. :)

 

 

  

 

Well... others can take this with a grain of salt also.  But this review was made three years ago.  I was listening at that time single ended. Since then I have tried balanced connections and find the benefits worth making a change for.  That is when I decided to get the ST-10. In the review I was not ready to make any change. 

 

Here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134516.msg1428384#msg1428384

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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3 hours ago, GeneZ said:

So many variables involved.   Cables,  fuses,  IC's.. Speakers.  I believe that reviews often times are reporting about how a piece of equipment interacts in their own particular system.  A good review should require access to a healthy number of speakers and peripheral components.

 

 

A system is a system. An excellent rule of thumb is that the closer one is to the "ideal", the more the one outstanding weak link will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, and haunt you until you get rid of it.

 

Will an "excellent" amplifier make your rig sound magical? ... ummm, will the best tyres you can buy turn your old bomb of a car into a magical driving experience ... ?

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A system is a system. An excellent rule of thumb is that the closer one is to the "ideal", the more the one outstanding weak link will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, and haunt you until you get rid of it.

 

Will an "excellent" amplifier make your rig sound magical? ... ummm, will the best tyres you can buy turn your old bomb of a car into a magical driving experience ... ?

 

Any change I make in my present system quickly reveals what the difference is. 

 

It only took me 50 years, or so, to finally put together such a system. So,  its not as if I am some super audiophile who knew what he was doing from the start. Just lots of research and development (aka, mistakes) were made over the years. 

 

I have learned...   If I used certain interconnects?  Or certain speaker cables?  Or,  power cords?   Detecting such changes might make me think those who talk about fuses and power cords as impressionable jerks. Each piece of equipment is part of a team for transparency.  I am pretty sure there are speakers out there that would make such differences undetectable. Any weak link in the chain would be able to nullify the greatness of everything else in a system. We are involved with an art, not just science.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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45 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A system is a system. An excellent rule of thumb is that the closer one is to the "ideal", the more the one outstanding weak link will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, and haunt you until you get rid of it.

 

Will an "excellent" amplifier make your rig sound magical? ... ummm, will the best tyres you can buy turn your old bomb of a car into a magical driving experience ... ?

 

that's a skewed analogy. it will be equivalent to saying we are driving $50 pair of computer 3" speaker with a $2000 amp. I am hoping most people have more balanced system than that.

 

 

while i agree that a true review should cater for the general public by pairing amps with different speakers and other components, we are not professional reviewers, just some dude sitting in his cave listening to music.

 

However, having said that, this is more in the tune of a comparison and not an absolute review. So it does show the comparative qualities between the different amps.

 

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4 minutes ago, jmpsmash said:

 

that's a skewed analogy. it will be equivalent to saying we are driving $50 pair of computer 3" speaker with a $2000 amp. I am hoping most people have more balanced system than that.

 

 

 

That's not as silly as it may sound to many people - I've done the equivalent to that, and you can end up with a pretty impressive presentation. That is, the cheap speakers will unerringly show up weaknesses of the amplifier; but pricey speakers won't do anything to compensate for a poorly done amplification chain.

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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32 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 

Any change I make in my present system quickly reveals what the difference is. 

 

It only took me 50 years, or so, to finally put together such a system. So,  its not as if I am some super audiophile who knew what he was doing from the start. Just lots of research and development (aka, mistakes) were made over the years. 

 

I have learned...   If I used certain interconnects?  Or certain speaker cables?  Or,  power cords?   Detecting such changes might make me think those who talk about fuses and power cords as impressionable jerks. Each piece of equipment is part of a team for transparency.  I am pretty sure there are speakers out there that would make such differences undetectable. Any weak link in the chain would be able to nullify the greatness of everything else in a system. We are involved with an art, not just science.

 

Indeed. No-one knows it all - and the closer one gets to optimum, the more there is to learn ... the good news is, that rigs have the potential to be staggeringly good, way superior to what most consider high end sound to be ... I have no trouble saying, there are no limits ...

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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26 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

That's not as silly as it may sound to many people - I've done the equivalent to that, and you can end up with a pretty impressive presentation. That is, the cheap speakers will unerringly show up weaknesses of the amplifier; but pricey speakers won't do anything to compensate for a poorly done amplification chain.

 

That's interesting. I thought it would be the other way around. Have you tried it? can you elaborate?

 

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I originally got a burst of what I call "competent sound" many decades ago with quite ordinary, relatively cheap bookshelf speakers. The CD player was top of the line; the amp was a highly regarded one of that era - as a result I never developed a "thing" about needing specialist speakers; and experience ever since has born that out.

 

Yes, both the amplfier, and speaker, will introduce some distortion into the situation. But what matters, subjectively, is the type of distortion - the nature of "what's wrong" is far more important than the usual numbers gathered, when measuring misbehaviour of this sort of gear. And it turns out that electronic imperfections are far more insidious, damaging to the perceived SQ than the wrongdoings of the speaker drivers. Unless the latter are grossly bad at what they do.

 

And this has guided me ever since. I make sure the mechanical side of the speaker assembly is reasonable, take special care that all the electrical areas, of the crossovers and cabling, have no obvious weaknesses - and leave it at that - for the speakers. The major efforts go towards ensuring the electronic chain prior to the speakers is as clean, as sorted, as is reasonable for the value of the components - because that is where the real gains occur.

 

Case in point is the current rig being tweaked. Electronics are decent, older NAD units; speakers are Sharp boombox items, from the classic 3 equal sized boxes that are available everywhere. So far, the NAD units are the biggest bottleneck, the speakers have barely started to breath in terms of what they're capable of ...

Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Over and out.

.

 

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I learned a big lesson back in the 70's.  I had the luxury of working for a quality audio shop.  I landed a traded in McIntosh MC 275. KT88's.  I had the amp refurbished.  Next trophy, was getting a tip from the shop and went to another shop to buy a used McIntosh C-20 tube preamp. That too I had refurbished.   No one today would dare fault that front end today as junk.  They go for premium prices as vintage equipment.

 

But what happened?   I took home from the shop various speakers to audition.  Dalquist DQ 10's sounded horrible in my room.  Was the amp to fault?   I had no way to know.  At first I was wondering if the Mac was worth it.  Then I tried some Bang and Olufsen Phase-link  speakers.  Totally different sound and much tighter, but bright.  Made the Mac sound opposite to the DQ 10's.  Was the amp to blame?   I tried another B&O  Its little brother.  Best sound balance of the bunch as far as accuracy and imaging  Today it would have been great for nearfield listening.   But, the sound with distance listening was too small.  I wondered if those Mac tube units were not really  that good after all.  Just warmer sounding than the solid state units I heard.

 

Then one day I asked permission and was told I could take home a pair of KEF 104ab's to audition.  To me they looked plain and conventional.  I hooked them up.  It was as if I walked in on a surprise birthday party.  It happened. I never knew how good that amp could sound!  Taught me a huge lesson when it comes to evaluating equipment.

 

The Dalquist DQ 10's would have sounded better on a solid state amp because the Mac's damping control lost the DQ 10's. The DQ 10's had terrible bass control on their own.

 

Well...  about five years ago I heard a small pair of Definitive Audio Pro Monitor 800's when starting my first serious desktop system.  If they did not vibrate my desk I would have kept them. Those speakers under the right conditions can sound dreamy.  But they vibrated all over the place in my system...  Was it the amp's fault? (Amber 50b)  Other speakers with that same amp did not cause such vibrations.  

 

In five words....   "We need to luck out."

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Isolate from the desk with IsoAcoustics products, they work great.

1. Sonore ultraRendu - UpTone ISO Regen - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NC800 SL PRO - Thiel CS3.7
2. LG 65UM7470PSA - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NCore MP mch - Monitor Audio Platinum PL100+PLC150 - SVS SB-3000
3. RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP
4. TempoTec Sonata E44 - Audeze LCDi3
5. Meizu HiFi DAC - Moondrop Aria

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8 hours ago, GeneZ said:

In five words....   "We need to luck out."

Luck out? Previously I have seen you state that there weren't speakers that dipped into 2 ohms that might challenge an amp. I sense a trend. Fifty years of haphazard experimentation does not equate to "knowledge". Experience helps, but is often better backed by some solid understanding of what type of load an amp will see. There are solid reasons why one rarely sees 105dB speakers with high power class AB amps or SET amps running electrostatics.

 

Luck is always a factor I suppose, but knowledge is power, or at least helps power a speaker properly...

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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9 hours ago, Matias said:

Isolate from the desk with IsoAcoustics products, they work great.

 

 

Definitive Audio Pro Monitor 800's?      Not to be done.

 

  ? Great little speakers for desktop if you have means for bass reinforcement. 

 

They are tiny and only have three legs built in. Too small for Iso Acoustics  (which I have)...............................93207060922_studio_front_back.png

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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7 hours ago, 4est said:

Luck out? Previously I have seen you state that there weren't speakers that dipped into 2 ohms that might challenge an amp.

 

 

That's how I came across?    I was speaking of speakers rated at 2 Ohms. (which is how the premise was worded).  Not speakers that simply dip into 2 Ohms.  Meaning,  some speakers dip near to zero ohms.

 

Like here!  https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=18325.0

 

The "luck" I spoke of was finding the right combination of an entire system coming together.   One variable can cause you not to know how much good potential your system really has.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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