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Good Class D amps ??


Ralf11

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On 3/26/2018 at 4:51 PM, Ralf11 said:

is the NuPrime ST-10 Class D??
$1595

 Its the finest amp I have ever listened to ......  That does not mean there is nothing better.  I am sure there must be.  I just have not the means to go beyond the ST10 and still remain feeling justified for my desktop nearfield system.  I tried the NuForce/ JOB.... and several others.  And,  I have owned tubes as well.   Your mileage may vary....   And, yes.  The ST10 uses very little electricity compared to a typical amp of equal power.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Update.... Besides the NuPrime ST10 I mentioned...   also a very good sounding amp is the PS Audio S300.  Very good balance of sound.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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This thread was started way back in March.  Since then, a new level of Class D amplifier has made its debut.  From the reviews I have seen so far its been able to create its own class in how it sounds.

 

It has a 1M Ohm input impedance.  No chance of any preamp mismatching with that unusual rating.  I own a Nuprime ST-10, and have never tired of it.  This new Nuprime amp is supposed to surpass it in a beautiful way.  I am not complaining that I do not own this new amp.  But, if some here are looking for something that stands above in a way that is not just rhetoric.. This may be what needs to be auditioned.


Nuprime Evolution amplifier

 

Nuprime Evolution One

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

The NuPrime Evoluion One looks fantastic. But unfortunately out of my budget.

 

The ST-10 however, look more in my ball park. My dilemma is whether to just fix the Hypex NC400 and keep it, which cost around $400 or so, or try the NuPrime ST-10. Anyone have comparison of those two?

 

Looks like my option so far is one of:

- fix Hypex

- NuPrime ST-10

- PS Audio Stellar M700

 

 

Well... right now I also have a PS Audio Stellar S300.  Its the little brother of the M700.  The PS Audio is going for sale this winter. The Nuprime stays.  Both are very good.  If I never heard the ST-10 I would not have a problem with keeping the PSA.

 

The first thing I thought of when listening to the ST-10 was how it reminded me of my old McIntosh MC275 in the bass, only tighter.   It has a certain tubish quality to its sound.   It feels right at home with a good tube preamp.

 

I don't know if that tells you what you need to know.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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54 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 

deleted

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, wgscott said:

Fix the Hypex.

 

NuPrime won't publish measurements.  Don't believe the hype.

 

Curious...  What specs did you need beyond what they gave on the Nuprime page?  

 

Did you click on the Specs tab? https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/evolution-one/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

I would not recommend it because of its price.  What I really wanted to do was to make others aware of this interesting new Class D amp that is new on the market. Nuprime makes their own modules. They do not but OEM modules form the big two and build around them. I became aware of this when years back I purchased my first Class D when there was NuForce.  On a right system they lend themselves to a midrange transparency that I find intriguing.

 

To each his own.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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All these people are hearing things 'in the details' that they do not like, and it may not be the amp that is the culprit.  Its always system dependent.  No one can recommend what is best *for you* unless you share everything in your system as identical. They can tell you what is essentially good in certain ways only.  Speakers and their set up can change everything.  Cables can make or break a system.  The PS Audio is essentially a good amp and uses OEM modules.  NuPrimes make their own design and are good amps.  Good luck with your systems. No one can tell you what is going to sound great in your system.  Change your interconnects and you might discover the amp is much better than realized....  Up until then you were blaming maybe the amp, or preamp...or DAC.  ;) 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

 

I swear I saw a recent video of Ask Paul saying he didn't remember saying the M700 is 90% of the BHK. I tried to go look for it but couldn't find it. It was title something like "is class D the future of amplification" and he basically says classD has the issue with the top end. I will post it here if I find it.

 

 

The moral to the story?   Have some tubes in your system when using D class for its full potential.  BHK uses tubes. 

Don't think that makes no difference between the M700 and its big brother.  I now have a tube preamp with my Nuprime ST-10.  I can see why some say its the way to go.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Gene, what do you find wrong or poor SQ about the PS Audio Stellar S300?

 

and I might be interested in buying it...

Nothing is wrong.... Its like trying two different cups of excellent coffee. You are just going to prefer one over the other.  The Nuprime has a certain heft that I have only heard with a tube amp. But its much tighter than tubes.  It was tuned that way by its designer.  When my Nuprime was in the shop. I listened to the S300 and I was very happy with its sound.   I just needed to decide which one I am going to keep.  Considering the ST-10 with the TDSS mod cost much more than the S300?  I'd say for what they do, they are both products that you will not go wrong with as long as there is a system synergy with what you own.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, jmpsmash said:

 

That's what I have. Tube pre and class D power. I think that's the best combo. Tube tunes the sound, and a "wire with power and dynamics" for the power.

 

A well made class D amp has a quality only heard with tubes. Class D amps control the speaker movement better than tubes can.  The damping factor with the Class D that I have listened with is as good as it gets. 

 

The Nuforce, Nuprime, and PS Audio amps, I listened with all share with tubes a certain transparency in the midrange that I never hear with any AB amp.  Tube preamp... or even a good passive preamp... works well with Class D. 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, wgscott said:

  They have to give those specs because they are selling OEM modules to builders who will have to build around their module.   Normally you do not get those details when a manufacturer has already created a product to match the amp they are using. NuPrime designed a proprietary type of system that they will even tell you that their map is not really a Class D in the classic sense.   Their amps sound quite tube like. Even the little NuPrime STA -100 I own has a unique sound that I find intriguing.   

 

Here is a clip from a review I located written when NuForce (now Nuprime)  used to take the time to explain how its design is not the same as what we normally see with Class D.

 

 They are based on proprietary circuit topologies developed by NuForce
 - not on any of the popular off-the-shelf Class D amp modules such as
those offered by Tripath, Bang & Olufsen/ICEPower or Philips/Hypex UCD.
Interestingly, the NuForce amps were designed by the company’s chief
technology officer —an engineer named Tranh Nguyen, whose design
accomplishments include development of the power system for the
Tomahawk missile and who holds several patents relevant to

 

Since that was published Nuprime's designer has not stopped refining his design. 

 

At one point they refused to even be labelled Class D, but apparently did so for the need to establish a position in the market. 

 

This link will take you to their official position on what constitutes Class D.   https://nuprimeaudio.com/guides/amp-design/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

 

No...  I do not work for NuPrime.   I would recommend PS Audio for those in that price range.  ;)

 

I am pretty sure there are other Class D amps out there that are now under the radar. 

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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35 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

I have the S300 paired with a DS Jr DAC, I love the combo and have lost the grass is always greener itch for awhile now...

 

 

FYI...   The S300 comes with an audiophile fuse. Found out its soldered in for best connection.  Learned that from PSA customer service. Its one more reason it sounds so good.  On the other hand,  I had to put an audiophile fuse in my ST-10.

 

Have you tried the balanced connections? 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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11 hours ago, ShawnC said:

As far as the treble goes, I'd say it's the lack there of.  It just doesn't seem to shine.  Cymbals don't sound right, it's dull.  Some like it like that.  Only my best recordings sound good, not great with these amps.  With my Emotiva amp everything sounded pretty good but my best recordings sounded great as they should as a comparison.

 

You have to remember PS Audio made the best class D amp they could at given price point.  There were certain constraints when the design was being developed ie. money.  If you haven't noticed all PS Audio gear is doubled cost of the product below it.  S300 - M700 - BHK250 - BHK300, DSDJR- DSDSR (except the now on sale DSDSr).

 

As far as the Paul saying it's only 10% difference between the M700s and the BHK250 I'll find out soon.  I have a feeling it's just good PR to say that.  With that said, the M700 bass and lower level midrange are glorious as they should be.  Class D excels in this area. If I wasn't getting such an amazing deal on a brand new amp I'd be fairly happy with the M700s.  

 

My friend is borrowing my Emotiva amp with his Maggies he hand built himself at the factory (He hasn't worked there for 15 years).  He was surprised how much bass can come out of those speakers with lots of power at their disposal.  He has an older version of the 1. series and has always used tubed pre's and low powered amps.  He'll be getting the M700 to test when I get he BHK in house.

  I have no dullness when listening with the S300.  Not sure if you have some sort of mismatching going on. 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

A couple of years ago when I was researching NuPrime amps, I noticed a high amount (relative to the other amps I was considering) of user reports of strange amp/speaker interactions.  Don't recall much specific, but I would say that anyone considering a NuPrime amp, which is as you say is a unique/proprietary circuit design, do their best to make sure there are not known issues with their speakers/set up...

  The only speaker interaction I have seen Nuprime warn about is in regards to REL subwoofers that use their connectors going directly to the outputs of a certain amps. 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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3 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Not motivated to document it for you (cough).  I recall  one forum where the (or perhaps "a") principal of NuPrime fielded these reports, and did not deny them...

  I think I found it.  They tell you to stay away from 2 Ohm speakers.  That causes problems. 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/nuprime-sta-9-power-amplifier-mini-review.3932/

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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9 hours ago, esldude said:

Well I notice their amps usually spec same wattage at 8 and 4 ohms, or sometimes even less into 4 ohms.  This would indicate they are rather limited in current capability.  Some 4 ohm rated speakers with odd phase angles or impedance dips could cause issues with such an amp.  And they do say in the manuals do not use 2 ohm speakers.

 

Do you have a 2 ohm speaker?  Know anyone that does?  Most people should not be so concerned.  These amps sound VERY good.  All this data dumping, but no listening?

I am sitting here listening to my ST-10.  Silly fear mongering arguments is all I see.  2 Ohm speaker?   Google it.  Most are car speakers.  ;)

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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2 hours ago, Panelhead said:

  Looked at the NuPrime Evolution literature. Did not see any tidbits of why it is so neutral sounding. 

  The 1M input is not a benefit from my experience. A 10K or lower impedance helps with noise, cable dielectrics, and RFI pickup. 

  Have used tube gear with high impedances. 500k. Always had a 12AX7 input tube. 

  

 

Read the review?   1M input is only found on only a few VERY expensive amplifiers. Wonder why...

 

All fear tactics is all I see.  I have listened to a slew of amplifiers and have no desire to look elsewhere,  even the Evolution One. But, it all depends on your system's ability's resolving power.  With certain speakers many are too busy trying to compensate for the problems that the speakers present.  That means you need to find an amp with the reverse problem. 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, mocenigo said:

 

And some PA/live concert applications. You can have monsters that go down to 1 Ohm. Then the amplifiers need to provide a LOT of current. Since the amps are then usually in class D, one may be temped to use these products with those speakers...

  

Why should anyone need to use an audiophile amplifier on a PA speaker when the cheaper brute units designed for them is all you should need? 

 

In other words?  Its like saying to those so inclined... don't drive a BMW 385i off road.   Because it will get stuck.

 

   ? OH!?   I wouldn't buy a BMW then!

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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No problems here...  NuPrime was specific about no 2 Ohm speakers.  Not 8 Ohm speakers that may dip down lower.  That means a 2 Ohm speaker will dip lower than 2 Ohms.    Apparently some people with 2 Ohm speakers had a problem.   NuPrime also warns about certain amps with REL subwoofers, because REL has an unconventional way of hooking them up directly from your amp's outputs.   They are just trying to avoid certain audiophiles with rare problems.

 

I promise I will not drive my BMW in the back woods over the rocks and hillsides.

 

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

Interesting what you say about REL (I run REL's).  REL's tap the amp's outputs with a high impedance (going from the top of my head, >10K) simply for a signal.  Can't think of a reason this would be a problem for an amp.  What's NuPrime's explanation as to why it is for their circuits?

 

 

Its not about just Nuprime. Nuprime simply makes it known.  Class D amplifier design, by default, causes problems with REL Subwoofers.

 

Look at the REL page and look up about hooking up Class D amplifiers. https://relsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004486607-Class-D-Amp-Connection-Methods

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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55 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Settle down Beavis, you appear to be overly defensive of Nuprime.  

 

?

Man...   you grabbed that quick!  Instantly!  That was deleted out seconds after posting.     .?    whoah!   :)

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Well folks ... That low impedance issue was apparently 'old news.'   With normal low impedance speakers there is no problem with "current" models.

 

Here is an excerpt from the Nuprime STA-9 manual. (which is below the ST-10)

 

Features:

Single End Class A + D amplifier design Bridgeable allowing switch between stereo or mono mode.
Enhanced even-order harmonic (H2) circuitry resembling the most attractive features of tubed-amp sound without its drawbacks and limitations.
Highly reliable under no-load condition and enhanced short circuit protection.
High output current drive capability for low impedance speakers.
550 KHz switching frequency for accurate reproduction of musical signal.
New linear power supply with a high-efficiency toroidal transformer. Reduced high-frequency noise and strengthened low-frequency performance.
Signal path avoids cross-linking capacitors, thus achieving a frequency response at DC level for pure musical enjoyment.

 

https://nuprimeaudio.com/product/sta-9/?v=7516fd43adaa

 

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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52 minutes ago, esldude said:

You asked this question to the wrong person.  I've got a speaker that dips to an ohm.  And the Nuprime won't handle the load well. 

 

 

What speakers?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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52 minutes ago, esldude said:

I'd need to check, but I bet Nuprimes are actually differential output.  So there isn't really a ground.  Just plus and minus polarity at the output. That could be a problem input right into a REL or any of the multitude of other subs expecting a single ended input with ground on one side. 

 

 

Its not only Nuprime.   Class D amplifiers in general.  REL has instructions for ALL Class D amplifiers,  not just Nuprime.   Its like buying a car with a diesel engine having a warning not to use regular gasoline/petrol.

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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Only subtractions and not additions?  Folks,  what do you recommend?

It all depends upon in what dimension of life one finds themselves living in.  For, one man's music is another man's noise. 

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