Good Class D amps ??

[firedog]

48 minutes ago, barrows said:

Nord One Up is likely the very best amplifier available in the world in terms of cost/peformance.  I have heard it and it is outstanding.  It offers two options for the input stage which allows slight "tuning" of the sound as well.

 

Mola Mola Kaluga is likely the very best class d amplifier available period, and one of the best amplifiers available in the world regardless of topology.  I have never heard an amp which I could say was 'better" in any real way.  I have heard most of the heavy hitters (Solution, Audio Research ref series, VTL, Constellation, CH Precision, etc, etc).

The Apollon Amps are very similar to the Nord and some say the internal setup is superior to the Nord. Both Nord and Apollon are now also offering amps based on the new ICE 1200 module, it would be interesting to ask them how the NCore and ICE compare.

[firedog]

19 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

I’ll note that no one with high end systems prefers class D.

You continually manage to make up these absolute statements that are true only inside your head. 

Please provide proof of statement other than your prejudiced impressions of what you read. 

[firedog]

18 minutes ago, barrows said:

.  The Nord does not appear to have the best internal layout/wiring, so it likely could be improved upon as well.  Even so, it produces superb sound as is a

It’s been posted that the Apollon Audio classD amps which are very similar to the Nord, have a superior internal wiring setup. 

[firedog]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

They have a stereo amp under $1,000 USD, correct?

I find their web site a bit difficult to navigate, you’d have to look. I seem to remember they have dual mono NCore stereo amps and an ICE 1200 stereo amp based on one stereo amp module that is cheaper than the Hypex. 

It would be interesting if someone asked them to compare the sound of the two amps. 

[firedog]

http://www.spec-corp.co.jp/e/index.html

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/spec/1.html

 

Just saw this previously unknown Class D manufacturer reviewed at 6 moons. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

But why tell a falsehood about how toroidal transformers cause speaker buzz? Everyone knows that is very uncommon, as is 60 Hz artifacts. He also suggests linear power supplies aren’t linear?

You need to practice your reading comprehension skills. He’s referring specifically to the linear supply in the Theta, and the noise (confirmed by JA) it produces at 60hz.

He says his SMPS in his amp is better - lower noise - and more linear than the linear supply in the Theta.

 

We understand that he doesn’t agree with one of your religious principles about audio, namely, “SMPS can.never be as good as Linear PS”.

Since you have no actual facts or knowledge to use to discredit what he says, you perform some mental gymastics to distort what he said and take it out of context, and then conclude that he is lying b/c you’ve distorted what he said and turned it into something else. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

He seems fond of lying and self-promotion. For example, lying about toroidal transformers causing buzz/hum through speakers — to support an attack on audiophile reviewers who are dumber than he is.

You are seriously going to put yourself up as being more knowledgeable about audio engineering than Bruno P? You don’t even understand enough to comprehend what he says, much less challenge it. 

Try challenging Einstein on physics too, you’d be about as successful.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Bruno Putzeys is an experienced engineer who frequently self-promotes by saying everyone else is too dumb to understand whatever it is he's working on at the moment as well as he does. 

 

Please show us one place where he says this...other than in your mind where you’ve invented it.

[firedog]

31 minutes ago, GUTB said:

"When the people there realized that suddenly all the hum and buzz they'd been fighting for years was completely gone they went ape. It's really strange how lay people (especially those trained in the art of audiophilia by their peers who write for audio magazines) seem to think that switching power supplies are noisy. They're not. Given half a chance they're much quieter. All you need to take care about is of course the 100kHz and associated harmonics. Once I had that down the SMPS sounded much better than the big iron and copper affair that's incorrectly known as a "linear supply"."

 

1. Suggestion that hum and buzz are caused by linear power supplies.

2. Everyone else doesn’t understand power supplies.

3. Diminishes the problems inherent in switching power supplies.

4. Suggests linear power supplies aren’t linear.

 

Everyone knows that torodials can buzz because they vibrate under thier magnetic field. Electromagnetic interference and uncontrolled currents are solved problems; correcting for these issues as a cause for hum/buzzing isn’t an ingenious solution but just regular debugging of any design any engineer goes through. The comment about linear power supplies not being linear doesn’t make any sense.

Again, your prejudices blind you to simple reading comprehension. He didn’t say everyone else doesn’t understand power supplies, he said uninformed lay people don’t.

He’s simply saying he - and others - can design an SMPS that is quieter and more linear than what those same people regard as audiophile level  linear power supplies. 

 

Do you have a single fact or shred of evidence to show he’s wrong? `No. You simply don’t want to have your preconceived notions challenged, so you write these uninformed posts. 

Ironically, you are exactly the kind of lay person he is referring to in his quote. 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

So, there’s a reason why virtually all high end audio uses torodial-based power supplies

 

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

There’s a reason why almost no high end manufacturers use switching power supplies — that is that they just sound worse.

 Wrong, as usual. As has been pointed out to you previously:

There are several very high end manufacturers who use SMPS. Most others don't, because:

A really good SMPS is expensive and difficult to design. We aren't talking a wall wart PS here.

 

Most manufacturers don't have  the knowledge or experience  to produce such a PS, so they don't. Too much trouble and expense for them. If you don't have experience designing them, why go to the trouble and R&D expense of producing a suitable one when alternative technologies exist that are known to you and suitable? And cheaper for you. 

 

It has zero to do with whether an SMPS can be made to sound as good or better than other types of PS, and everything to do with the lack of knowledge and cost of production as a result. 

Even in high end production, such mundane things are often the reason for design choices. You repeatedly mistakenly assume that just because a technology is found in high priced designs, that it is by definition better. Sometimes it is used because it is "good enough" (which can be very good/excellent) for the level of the design and and available at whatever price the manufacturer finds acceptable. And because, "that's how we've always done it and that's what we know how to do well'. 

 

The companies, such as Linn, that produce their own SMPS power supplies understand the desirable aspects of SMPS, and know how to produce a high quality SMPS where the less desirable aspects are overcome. As esldude noted, that scenario exists for all types of PS: use the desirable features, design around-solve the problems brought about by the less desirable features. 

 

But keep repeating the generalization "they just sound worse" to yourself, even though it has no basis in reality and has been shown not to be true as a general statement. 

[firedog]

28 minutes ago, sandyk said:

While I agree with the first part. I think the expense is more likely to come down to economies of scale.

 I don't believe that if enough of these types of SMPS were produced that the cost would be a problem.

 Have you any idea how much a large toroidal transformer capable of powering a high power amplifier costs (500VA or more) ?

Add to that the sheer weight of the beast, and the larger enclosure needed for the amplifier as a result.

 Good metalwork is not inexpensive either, and would need to be substantial to support such a heavy transformer.

I don't disagree. But since very few applications need a high quality SMPS, they aren't mass produced. Just the less expensive noisy ones are. 

If you are producing high end audio and there isn't an off the shelf one that meets your needs, you probably won't think that designing/producing your own from scratch makes the most sense economically, as your production run won't be large. 

Add to that all the misinformed audiophiles who might be put off your product if it uses an SMPS,  and you have good reasons not to use one. 

All that weight and metalwork is a positive selling point in the high end market - it is seen as proof of quality. 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

Linn is not a high-end manufacturer.

This must be your idea of a joke....

3 hours ago, GUTB said:

The reason offered is that all of these engineers are dumb.

Did you miss a lot of elementary school as a child? Please go back to school and take some lessons in reading and understanding written English. That's nowhere been said or even implied. That formulation exists only in your mind, not in what anyone here has written or what Bruno P has written. 

[firedog]

6 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Bruno Putzeys did, in fact, write that and you repeated it.

 

But, I know, truth is a popularity contest. You'll have the quotes shoved right into your face but it won't matter.

No, because you can’t find the quote. What you quoted earlier simply does not say what you claim. 

[firedog]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

So let’s explore the topic of “truth by popularity”. I’m going to prove statements made by Bruno Putzeys and we’ll see how it will be rejected because the fact isn’t self-evident but almost all unbiased observers would find it truthful all the same.

 

Other designers are dumb:

 

”At the core of the problem is fear of math. Even serious papers about power electronics for things like electric cars tend to resort to well established rules of thumb like “phase margin” and “gain bandwidth” rather than taking things from the ground up—even when the subject matter clearly requires it. So that meant little help was coming from the industrial power electronics community where you’d expect it to be most readily available.”

 

“A high-performance Class D amplifier contradicts every single item of audiophile superstition. Designing one is the ultimate test to see if you’ve got your head screwed on right.”

 

“Most audio companies have a core philosophy, like using a particular cone material, or use only FETs, or no feedback, etc. -- something that defines their identity. That hampers any serious attempt at solving problems. If, for mere reason of ego or identity, you’re not free to use any means available to solve a problem, you’re not going to do a good job.“

 

“What I’m saying is that we have to pull audio away from fairyland and back into engineering.”

 

This is just a short sampling. His writings are stuffed with commentary about how the industry is run by morons who can’t figure out the problems he’s solved on whatever he’s working on.

 

Nowhere does he say or imply others engineers are dumb or morons. And all those quotes aren't even about other engineers. They are also about audiophiles who are lacking engineering knowledge. Saying someone is lacking knowledge is not the same as saying they are dumb or a moron...Or is it simply that his comments hit too close to home for you to deal with them? 

 

 As far as other engineers: Most audio companies do have a core identity that has philosophically locked them into certain technologies. Let's just assume that is true, whether you think it is or not: it is not the same as saying they are dumb or morons. You are projecting your prejudices onto what he said, or you simply are unable to understand the difference. 

[firedog]

18 hours ago, barrows said:

Yes, out of my league!  But the thread is about good Class D amplifiers, this is one.

Sure, but the interesting question is; where are the "levels"?

 

Pretty much everyone (except GUTB) thinks the Nord, Apollona, and PS Audio amps that don't sell for more than $3000 MSRP are very good amps by any standard.

 

How much more do you have to spend to get a significant improvement? Something like the $5000 Merrill?  Is it even noticeably better? Or one of the amps in the 10K neighborhood? It would be interesting to hear from someone who has compared or upgraded within Class D.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

 

So it has been decided. I will get the NC500 w/ Sonic Imagery opamp from Nord.

 

And my current NC400 has already been fixed. Super fast shipping from Hypex arrived from Netherlands in less than 2 days and swapping in the new module only took 10 mins. Now it is being burn in around the clock. It will take a week for it to match the hundreds of hours that I have on the other channel.

 

After the NC500 arrives and burned in, I can do a comparison. And I will need to find a new home for the NC400. I am tempted by the ST-10 too actually.

 

Looking forward to your comparison of the two amps, especially in the Nord op amp seems to make a difference.

[firedog]

16 minutes ago, Matias said:

Yes, and the preliminar specs of the Purify 1ET400A module look superior to the Hypex NC400: lower THD and IMD, higher efficiency.

 

2020 will be a very interesting year for class D with a strong new player on the market.

 

Specsheet

https://6moons.com/wp-content/uploads/audioreviews/purifi/1.pdf

It looks like it is supposed to be more of a challenger for the Hypex 1200; which puts it in a different price category, I’d think.

[firedog]

Will be really interesting to hear (about) these when they debut. NAD has done some good things with their own implementation of NCore. If these are really an order of magnitude better, they could be game changers if at some point the price isn't in the stratosphere. 

[firedog]

Guessing they will cost more than the NC1200. I think the cheapest NC1200 on the market is about $3500. And that’s just recently, since they’ve apparently decided to make the 1200 something more like their other NC “commodity” boards. Guessing five figures for sure for any complete amp. L

[firedog]

Burn in- I think if you just play them continuously, and put them at very low volume when no actually listening. Easiest, fastest way to get there. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Matias said:

March Audio just introduced their NC1200 based monos for $1,395 usd each. Great price for the nCore flagship!

https://www.marchaudio.net.au/product-page/p701-flagship-mono-block-power-amplifier

 

Looks interesting, but the site doesn't give much info. What's the input section and the PS? I'm assuming standard NCore, but it would be good to know. What's the layout look like inside?That picture of the layout isn't the most helpful in seeing how the cables are setup, etc. 
Just having the 1200 board doesn't mean it is necessarily better than a really well done NC500 unit. 

[firedog]

Maybe opus101 and march audio can just agree to stop the argument? It isn't really interesting to the rest of us at this point, nor really on topic. 

[firedog]

11 hours ago, March Audio said:

 

Thank you firedog, I have been trying to put the noise on ignore.  Now done. However someone arguing from an uninformed position does need to be corrected. 

 

In any case it is actually a relevant and interesting subject, that of the merits of various input buffers. I'm also not sure why you think you speak for "the rest of" us. 

It was relevant till it became more about the argument than the actual topic.
At a certain level of detail it's no longer about "good class d amps", but about something much more limited and technical, that I assure you most readers don't want to get to that level of tech detail. Such a discussion is for a it's own thread, as I see it.
The argument back and forth, with somewhat personal comments also isn't on topic. 

[firedog]

10 hours ago, sandyk said:

The intolerant resident policeman does NOT speak for the rest of the members.

 

 

You're right, I don't. But if you think people who see the title of the thread and the OP are looking for what's going on in this discussion recently, you have a lack of ability to see outside your own POV. 

[firedog]

9 hours ago, March Audio said:

 

Oh the irony

Especially in view of the OP’s post. Even double irony, but not apparently what you thought.