jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Has anyone compared the PS Audio Stellar M700 and the Hypex NC400? I had the NC400 for more than a year and I love the detail, neutrality, dynamics and esp how it manage to control the woofer so well. Unfortunately my NC400 just blew (totally my fault) and I am thinking of moving to the M700 but I don't know if it will retain the same qualities. They will be driving a pair of Mezzo Utopias. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, ShawnC said: I have a pair of M700s. It's the only class D I've tried at home. When compared to my my Emotiva XPA Gen2 stereo amp, the M700s go deeper with the sound stage and more defined in the midrange. They are also louder. Where they do lack is in the treble range. Not as defined as any other class A or AB amp I've had. I just bought PS Audio BHK250 amp. That arrives in the next week, so I can compare the M700 to the 250. I'd also consider Bel Canto's class D amps, from what I've heard at the dealer they are superb but cost more then M700s. Thanks for the feedback. Interesting that you mentioned the treble being not as defined. Can you elaborate? Is it harsher sounding? or lack of treble? or something else? My NC400 don't have a very smooth treble either, it does reach high, not harsh per se, but definitely not silky smooth. After one of my NC400 died, I took out my old amp which is a Bel Canto S300. Quite old and early generation class D from Bel Canto. I cannot vouch for the Bel Canto sound though. In my experience with the S300 and the Dac3.5vb, I noticed Bel Canto's sound tend to be darker and bland. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 The NuPrime Evoluion One looks fantastic. But unfortunately out of my budget. The ST-10 however, look more in my ball park. My dilemma is whether to just fix the Hypex NC400 and keep it, which cost around $400 or so, or try the NuPrime ST-10. Anyone have comparison of those two? Looks like my option so far is one of: - fix Hypex - NuPrime ST-10 - PS Audio Stellar M700 Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 @ShawnC : Thanks for the info. Sounds like I am going to skip the M700. Having a lack of treble is a no-no. and the gain is a bit too much for my speakers anyway, i might not have fine enough steps on my preamp's attenuator. @mocenigo Yes. I agree. I understand the NC400 is for hobbyist with the input stage while the NC500 is the OEM one designed for that exact usage you mentioned. The NC400 is really rather impressive. I enjoyed it quite a bit. It has great extension on both ends, grabs the bass really tight, fast, transparent and clarity. It is a really fun amp to listen to. The only issue I have is that there is a little bit of siblance at the top end. I have been enjoying it and wouldn't be looking for something else if I hadn't blew one side of it. I might still fix it and it will be a good comparison to do with whatever I decide to get and I will sell the loser. The ST-10 does sound good from the reviews so far. I might just give it a try. I don't think I will get the DTSS mod yet, the $750 is nearly half the cost of the amp. If the base unit does exceed my expectation and better than the NC400, then I might opt to add that bit of extra at a later stage. The 150w vs 400w is another concern, but I think that's might be ok as my speakers are 92.5dB. so perhaps the extra headroom isn't that important. I'd love try the Evo One, or the BHK to be honest. But even at the top end of my budget I don't think I am ready to put in so much money for them. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 3 hours ago, ShawnC said: As far as the Paul saying it's only 10% difference between the M700s and the BHK250 I'll find out soon. I have a feeling it's just good PR to say that. With that said, the M700 bass and lower level midrange are glorious as they should be. Class D excels in this area. If I wasn't getting such an amazing deal on a brand new amp I'd be fairly happy with the M700s. I swear I saw a recent video of Ask Paul saying he didn't remember saying the M700 is 90% of the BHK. I tried to go look for it but couldn't find it. It was title something like "is class D the future of amplification" and he basically says classD has the issue with the top end. I will post it here if I find it. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 52 minutes ago, jmpsmash said: I swear I saw a recent video of Ask Paul saying he didn't remember saying the M700 is 90% of the BHK. I tried to go look for it but couldn't find it. It was title something like "is class D the future of amplification" and he basically says classD has the issue with the top end. I will post it here if I find it. found it: Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 1 minute ago, GeneZ said: The moral to the story? Have some tubes in your system when using D class for its full potential. BHK uses tubes. Don't think that makes no difference between the M700 and its big brother. I now have a tube preamp with my Nuprime ST-10. I can see why some say its the way to go. That's what I have. Tube pre and class D power. I think that's the best combo. Tube tunes the sound, and a "wire with power and dynamics" for the power. GeneZ 1 Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 On 11/24/2018 at 9:00 PM, jmpsmash said: The NuPrime Evoluion One looks fantastic. But unfortunately out of my budget. The ST-10 however, look more in my ball park. My dilemma is whether to just fix the Hypex NC400 and keep it, which cost around $400 or so, or try the NuPrime ST-10. Anyone have comparison of those two? Looks like my option so far is one of: - fix Hypex - NuPrime ST-10 - PS Audio Stellar M700 Did a bunch more research online. I am throwing into the mix a couple more amp/modules and my options: - fix Hypex (I already ordered a new module, I need to fix it and in the worse case, sell it) - NuPrime ST-10 - NC500 - the popular ones have either a Sonic Imagery or Sparko opamp input stage - ICE Power 1200AS2 module - this is relatively new from early this year. Most review rank these in par with NC500 at just above 1/2 the cost Tough choice. Wish I can get all of them and compare! These are all in the region of US$1k -> $2k Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, crenca said: Yea, but it leaves the graphite grainy and the words come out soulless... The switching power supply in my computer is technically class D. No wonder it tortures me everyday. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 On 11/26/2018 at 2:17 PM, jmpsmash said: Did a bunch more research online. I am throwing into the mix a couple more amp/modules and my options: - fix Hypex (I already ordered a new module, I need to fix it and in the worse case, sell it) - NuPrime ST-10 - NC500 - the popular ones have either a Sonic Imagery or Sparko opamp input stage - ICE Power 1200AS2 module - this is relatively new from early this year. Most review rank these in par with NC500 at just above 1/2 the cost So it has been decided. I will get the NC500 w/ Sonic Imagery opamp from Nord. And my current NC400 has already been fixed. Super fast shipping from Hypex arrived from Netherlands in less than 2 days and swapping in the new module only took 10 mins. Now it is being burn in around the clock. It will take a week for it to match the hundreds of hours that I have on the other channel. After the NC500 arrives and burned in, I can do a comparison. And I will need to find a new home for the NC400. I am tempted by the ST-10 too actually. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 3 hours ago, mocenigo said: I would suggest to take the monoblocks. Two monoblocks cost about 100EUR more (total) than the stereo version and, apart from having better separation, you can place them close to the speakers with short speaker cables and drive them with longer XLR interconnects. Also, the internal placement of components of Apollon monoblocks is a bit better than in the Nord ones. One cannot go wrong with those monos. I ended up getting the monoblock from Nord. They are quite comparable. They are pretty much just the same ideas with the same components in the input stage (Sparko regulator and Sparko/SI op amps). Interesting that you think the Apollon has better layout, the only difference i see is the orientation of the power supply. they have the opposite orientation and the Nord one ended up with shorter cabling from IEC to PS and from PS to the input stage board. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 5 hours ago, Ajax said: Hi jmpsmash, I purchased the Nord One UP NC500DM Stereo amplifier with the Sonic Imagery op amp about 2 years ago and have been very very happy with its performance while driving a pair of ATOHM GT1 bookshelf speakers (French) and a pair of ATC SCM19 (UK). Its being fed Tidal and hi Rez using Audirvana via the balanced outputs of a Benchmark HDR DAC 1. I note that our resident tosser GUTB insinuated in a post on about page 3 of this thread that I was making up the fact that I was enjoying the sound of the Nord as “no one with high end audio systems uses class D” or words to that effect. Why I would feel the need to do that I am not sure. I can’t remember a thread where GUTB hasn’t either offended someone or made a full of himself. I am therefore keen to hear your impressions so pls post when you get the time. All the best R Ajax Lots of trolls in this forum. I will be receiving the Nords today. Gonna give it a few days of burning in. I also listened to the NuPrime ST-10. Quite impressive, great focus and texture, placement and imaging is so precise there is a great sense of presence and realism. It sounds a bit more dark than the NC400 though, the NC400 sounds more open. I wish I have the budget for the Evolution One, I can only imagine how good that sounds. Maybe I will get to do a 3 way comparison. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 7 hours ago, Matias said: And I ended up ordering yesterday the Apollon NC800 SL with Sparkos opamp, but I am going to test the SI from a friend as well. Very interested to know what you think the differences are. Took me a while to decide on which one to get and at this point I am still not sure if getting the SI is the right choice. the Sparkos are $80 each. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Just now, GeneZ said: If it sounds dark? What preamp? What cables? Speakers? Mine is effected by anything in front of it. I have made it sound dark with certain speaker cables. I find its no more darker than what precedes it. I get a very open 'transparency' with my set up. Though my speakers are far from what was listened with here.. This review matches my experience. Amplifier Reviews, Analog Reviews NuPrime ST-10 power amp It sounds darker when A/B comparing with my NC400. Everything else are kept the same. In fact, I think the ST-10 beats the NC400 on all categories except for the sparkle at the upper frequencies. It has clarity and transparency, even at the high frequencies, just that it is not as forward. Mind you that it doesn't have the DTSS mods that yours has. from ppl who reviewed it says DTSS opens up the upper end. Perhaps the DTSS mod is where it fixes these issues. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 50 minutes ago, Matias said: I understand that the PS Audio Stellar amplifiers are based on the new ICEpower AS modules: 2 x 300AS1 on S300, 1 x 700AS1 on each M700, plus their custom buffer. I read that currently the best ICEpower module is the 1200AS. And also that both Apollon and Nord sell both nCore NC500+discrete opamps and ICEpower 1200AS, and both say that the best sound quality is the NC500. Having said that, of course the ideal would be to test all options in the same system. I would very much like to read such a shootout review. PS: Apollon also has a "PRO" buffer board that accepts the larger opamps from Sparkos or Sonic Imagery, but not the smaller DIP8 versions, although they said not be night and day difference. Anyone who lives in the silicon valley area who has the icepower amps and would like to get together for a comparison we can arrange it. The mk2 of the nord amps also has the pro socket. That's the main change with the matching pro level opamps. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Matias said: Nord has a new Mk.2 version now of the NC500 amp, with different buffer board and opamps: https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/copy-of-nord-one-se-nc500 He told me about it before I made my purchase. I didn't want to try something unreviewed so I got the mk1 version. He said there will be an upgrade path. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 18 hours ago, Ralf11 said: if you guys do a shootout, please write about it on here No takers at the moment. Class D is one of those cases where it is possible to gather some enthusiasts into one location for comparison. The amps can potentially fit into backpacks. Imagine asking ppl to bring in their class A amps, it will be quite an operation! Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 On 12/4/2018 at 12:22 AM, Matias said: It makes a lot of sense for integrated and preamplifiers, anything with volume control. But the Stellar power amps do not have volume controls. So the gain cell has fixed gain. Which really begs the question of why. If the Icepower already has an input stage, adding another fixed gain input stage goes opposite of the less is better philosophy. The only explanation is it colors the sound in a more desirable way that is preferred by the designer. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 I was careful to not say that coloring is bad. That's pretty much why we add preamps. Otherwise, everyone will be running attenuated DACs directly into power amp. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Anyway. Back to topic. The Nords are in the house. Been running them around the clock for the past 2 days. Won't say much before a couple more days of burning in. At the moment they do sound better than my NC400 but not much. They sound completely different than the NuPrime ST-10. Given that, we should stop lumping all class-D into 1 bucket. They each have their own character and sound. Link to comment
Popular Post jmpsmash Posted December 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 9, 2018 FWIW, here is my brief comparison between a DIY NC400, a Nord NC500 w/ SI opamp, and a unmodified Nuprime ST10 Firstly, between the NC400 and Nord NC500. It is obvious they comes from the same family and shares the same genes. There is no mistaken that. The NC400 is a neutral amp that doesn't color the sound. Many have said it is like a wire with gain. And that's quite true. But it is not perfect. I noticed the NC400 is actually not complete neutral, it tends to lean on the ... erm.. lean side. Bass is good but not plentiful and high seems to be slightly overemphasized. The Nord NC500 improves on almost all aspects of the NC400, basically, the smarter younger brother of the family. The high is more control and smoother and slightly more clarity. The mid is very similar, and the low end is faster and extends deeper, and it grabs onto the woofer tigher. Pace is also faster. The sound stage, texture and placement of instrument is almost the same. It give more natural overall picture. The ST10 on the other hand, is like the "other" family. It sounds nothing like the Hypex. First of all, the presentation is a bit darker, more laid back. A/B comparing the Hypexes and the ST10 the ST10 seems more reserved. The pace and rhythm seems to take a slight backseat. and the mid more recessed, almost to the point of dryness. However, what the ST10 does really exceptionally well is the precence of all the instrument. It manage to extract so much texture from all the instrument, it is uncanny. Violin, voices, cello, textures that is very subtle are all presented lifelike. The sound stage is very broad, deep and most importantly very distinct and clean. Plays a symphony and sound coming from each section during a complex passage can be clearly heard and pinpointed. It is quite addictive. However, the ST10 dry tonal balance makes it really hard to appreciate an orchestral piece where there is expected to have instrument at all frequency spectrum. The Hypexes has it better there. For someone who like the NC400, the NC500 is a natural upgrade. It fixes the shortcomings of the NC400. It works very well for almost all music. As for NC500 vs ST10, NC500 beats ST10 in tonality, beats in bass extension, deeper, but the ST10 has slightly more definition. NC500 has better rhythm and speed. However, the ST10 beats on texture, overall imaging and placement. Overall though, coming from tube background, I cannot take an amp that is overall dry in presentation. So I would personally prefer the NC500 over the ST10. Ideally, if we can have something that has the tonality and speed of the NC500 but the texture, soundstage and placement of the ST10, that will be the best. crenca, kaka89, wgscott and 1 other 4 Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, GeneZ said: I think one issue in evaluation is maybe being missed. Does the amp reverse polarity? My DAC has a polarity button so its easy to check. One amp may be failing when compared to another in an area because it has its polarity the opposite position than the other amp being evaluated. Has that been noted in testing? Yes. the ST10 reverses polarity and it has been compensated by reversing the speaker terminals. Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Amp polarity is known. The ST10 is supposed to inverse phase, while the Nord doesn't. However, I did try to experiment with phase and I kept them at what is spec'ed. I understand your concern. I have kept all associated equipment the same, same cables, same speaker, preamp. everything. Now I just want to point out that this is just the evaluation in one system, there can be issues with synergy with other component, synergy with the room, etc. I may not be maximizing something coz maybe the ST10 need some cable and mine wasn't the one but that one I have works well with the Hypexes. Could be, I don't know. But I know if I started using different cables, then it will be less of a apples to apples comparison. But it is a comparison nonetheless and that's what my ears tells me. Which brings another point is that this is what I hear and I try to be as discerning as I can but my ears are not yours and every pair of ears are different and everyone have different experiences and preferences. So take it with a grain of salt. My comparison is just another data point and is definitely not definitive. crenca 1 Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 45 minutes ago, fas42 said: A system is a system. An excellent rule of thumb is that the closer one is to the "ideal", the more the one outstanding weak link will stand out like the proverbial sore thumb, and haunt you until you get rid of it. Will an "excellent" amplifier make your rig sound magical? ... ummm, will the best tyres you can buy turn your old bomb of a car into a magical driving experience ... ? that's a skewed analogy. it will be equivalent to saying we are driving $50 pair of computer 3" speaker with a $2000 amp. I am hoping most people have more balanced system than that. while i agree that a true review should cater for the general public by pairing amps with different speakers and other components, we are not professional reviewers, just some dude sitting in his cave listening to music. However, having said that, this is more in the tune of a comparison and not an absolute review. So it does show the comparative qualities between the different amps. crenca 1 Link to comment
jmpsmash Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 26 minutes ago, fas42 said: That's not as silly as it may sound to many people - I've done the equivalent to that, and you can end up with a pretty impressive presentation. That is, the cheap speakers will unerringly show up weaknesses of the amplifier; but pricey speakers won't do anything to compensate for a poorly done amplification chain. That's interesting. I thought it would be the other way around. Have you tried it? can you elaborate? Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now