Best "Sounding" version of MAC OSX?

[hytechrednek]

I've been unable to find a discussion of Sound Quality for various versions of MAC OSX, only software compatibility issues.  Any comparisons for SQ out there?  I'm using El Capitan at the moment.

[Ralf11]

I doubt there is any.  Are you using the internal DAC?

 

The newest OS downgrade (High Sierra) is riddled with bugs however.  It does have its defenders tho

[hytechrednek]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I doubt there is any.  Are you using the internal DAC?

 

External- MicroRendu / Metrum Hex

[Ralf11]

Don't worry about the OS

 

See if you want some galvanic isolation - many long threads on this...

 

Think about UltraRendu

 

Iso. Trans - maybe

 

get the grounds in order & eliminate any Loops

 

and... work on speakers and room tmts.; then see if you can find better versions of the source material for music you really like

 

- Dr. Ralf's 5 Point Plan...

[wgscott]

4 hours ago, hytechrednek said:

 I'm using El Capitan at the moment.

 

Me too.  I am also using this (10.11) on my various computers at work.  I've updated a few to 10.12 and then to 10.13, but I see no advantages, and there are, as @Ralf11 mentioned, a bunch of bugs.  Also, if you are using Audirvana's direct mode, 10.11 is the last one it is compatible with (unless you want to recycle the older kernel extension -- so why upgrade?).

[hytechrednek]

16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

galvanic isolation

I was using the MR wirelessly with a router but found it sounded better connected directly to the Ethernet port of the Mac Mini.  Of course you have to enable internet sharing on the Mac to do this.  As I understand it, Ethernet has galvanic isolation in any case via transformer coupling. 

[Ralf11]

someone on here has said that the transformers don't completely shield the noise

 

my WiFi based AirPlay sounds good to me - I may test it vs. USB someday...

[Kuja]

23 hours ago, hytechrednek said:

I've been unable to find a discussion of Sound Quality for various versions of MAC OSX, only software compatibility issues.  Any comparisons for SQ out there?  I'm using El Capitan at the moment.

 

In my case there is a significant SQ difference between different OSX versions:

 

 

This is why I'm still using Mountain Lion 10.8.2.

Even 10.8.5 sounded worse in my case.

 

I'm using a USB Audio Class compliant device (M2Tech HiFace Two), so maybe this is the reason - no drivers from device's manufacturer, just different OSX versions having different versions of USB audio libraries.

[Ralf11]

nothing else changed?

 

just the OSX version and drivers?

[Kuja]

57 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

nothing else changed?

 

just the OSX version and drivers?

 

The OSX version is the only difference (the drivers are part of the OS).

Now I have two HDDs in my dual boot MacMini.

El Capitan for work, ML 10.8.2 for music.

With the same versions of playback software (Amarra and Audirvana) installed, there is a significant difference in sound quality between the two OS-es.

[hytechrednek]

6 hours ago, Kuja said:

This is why I'm still using Mountain Lion 10.8.2.

 

Interesting comment because some years back a friend plugged his MacBook Pro into my system and it sounded better than my MBP.  We decided it was because he was running Mt Lion and I was still running Snow Leopard.  

 

Presently I am running El Capitan.  I enjoy it more than Mavericks or Yosemite, which I find rather dull sounding.  I never found a discussion of Mac OSX where the various versions have been compared for SQ.  Perhaps Tiger or Panther sounded good too but never had an opportunity to test that out.

[Kuja]

7 hours ago, hytechrednek said:

I never found a discussion of Mac OSX where the various versions have been compared for SQ. 

 

These discussions are rare, and people who have heard differences between OSX versions can get ridiculed.

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/854185-10-8-4-sounds-different-10-6-8-a.html

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=9513576&postcount=165

[wgscott]

You are new, so it seemed a bit uncivilized, but if you insist ...

 

Meanwhile, welcome to CA!

 

Some people here believe far crazier stuff, like files with identical SHA1 and md5sums, played back identically, sound different based on their history.

 

When Damien was compiling early versions of Audirvana, he had people vote on which compiler and optimization options sounded best.  (I never knew if this was serious.)

 

Did you ever check to see if that point update you said sounded worse changed the USB driver or anything related to audio?

[hytechrednek]

I purchased ML long ago and still have the installer but not sure what version it is.  My current Mac Mini will not let me install it.  I still have a 2010 Mac Mini around here that will let me use ML.  Is there a place where ML 10.8.2 can be downloaded?  Just in case?  Would like to try it.

[Kuja]

3 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

Did you ever check to see if that point update you said sounded worse changed the USB driver or anything related to audio?

 

As I have already said (twice), there are no specific drivers provided by the manufacturer of my USB audio device.

 

It is plug and play, supported directly by the Mac OS.

 

So if the playback software and all of the settings are identical,

the different OSX versions are responsible for SQ differences?

 

21 hours ago, Kuja said:

I'm using a USB audio Class Compliant device (M2Tech HiFace Two), so maybe this is the reason - no drivers from device's manufacturer, just different OSX versions having different versions of USB audio libraries.

 

19 hours ago, Kuja said:

The OSX version is the only difference (the drivers are part of the OS).

Now I have two HDDs in my dual boot MacMini.

El Capitan for work, ML 10.8.2 for music.

With the same versions of playback software (Amarra and Audirvana) installed, there is a significant difference in sound quality between the two OS-es.

 

 

I have a dual boot MacMini with two different OSX versions, that I can switch to and from at any time, so I'm not speaking from some distant memory.

The playback software and audio settings are identical in both OSX versions that I'm using. 

Different OSX versions do sound different in my case. 

Mountain Lion 10.8.2 (and 10.8.3) is noticeably better sounding than all of the newer OSX versions that i have tried.

 

Maybe this is hardware specific, maybe some audio devices that are using their proprietary drivers (not relying on OSX inbuilt USB audio support) are working fine with the latest OSX versions (or their drivers are "tuned" to newer versions).

[wgscott]

34 minutes ago, Kuja said:

 

As I have already said (twice), there are no specific drivers provided by the manufacturer of my USB audio device.

 

Your expectation bias is showing.  I am asking if the OS X point update included changes to the USB kernel extension, or any of CoreAudio.  (Looking at the changelogs, it is not clear to me that this is the case).  This has nothing to do with vendor-supplied drivers.  Try reading a bit more carefully before you get all snippy.

[Ralf11]

I have a different question:  did you use a blind testing regime?

[hytechrednek]

Happened to find this post:

 

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/improved-sound-quality-in-el-capitan.1899121/

 

[wgscott]

2 minutes ago, hytechrednek said:

Happened to find this post:

 

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/improved-sound-quality-in-el-capitan.1899121/

 

 

I do remember they really screwed something up when 10.7 was released.  (10.7 was Apple's Vista).

[Kuja]

4 hours ago, wgscott said:

I am asking if the OS X point update included changes to the USB kernel extension, or any of CoreAudio. 

 

I apologize, english is not my native language, so I didn't know what "point update" means. Google has remedied that now!  

 

In the majority of cases I was not updating existing OS X installations, I was installing them starting from scratch on empty HDDs, using OS X Install app files from the Apple store.

 

I don't know what are the differences in USB kernel extensions between Mountain Lion, Mavericks, Yosemite and El Capitan (these are the OSX versions that I have tried).

 

 

4 hours ago, wgscott said:

Looking at the changelogs, it is not clear to me that this is the case

 

Can you post some links to these detailed changelogs? I have tried to find them some time ago without success.

 

 

4 hours ago, wgscott said:

Your expectation bias is showin

 

Hardly, since I did not expect anything.

When I first noticed this, I was just updating my Mini to the then new OS version,

and I got very surprised that, out of the blue and totally unexpected, the sound quality was much worse after the update.

I never thought that something like that would be possible just because of the OS upgrade, but you live and learn.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I have a different question:  did you use a blind testing regime?

 

It was complicated to blind test myself, so I have tested my unsuspecting friends and family.

 

After OS X upgrade to Mavericks, on her first listen my wife commented that her favorite album (Avalon by Roxy Music) sounds weird, and she asked me if I was playing some different version of it (I was not).

In many occasions over time, I was switching different OS X versions while playing some music for my "audiofool"  friends, not telling them what exactly I was doing, and all of them have noticed the same differences, without me telling them what to look for.

 

 

You can believe my experiences or not, I can't change anything about that.

 

But I'm not the only one, there are pro users who are using OS X for recording or postproduction, who have noticed the same thing.

...And there are others who are ridiculing them, so there is nothing new under the sun.

 

 

 

[hytechrednek]

16 hours ago, Kuja said:

 

These discussions are rare, and people who have heard differences between OSX versions can get ridiculed.

 

More like branded a heretic.

[Ralf11]

it seems highly unlikely that this would matter unless it affected the DAC (which is why I asked if it was an internal one).  

 

a mechanistic explanation is not required* otherwise, the science of epidemiology would not exist

 

* but it is highly satisfying

 

since the claimed result seems at odds with how digital audio works, the thing to do is to devise a good strong test to determine if it is real

 

or just forget about it and buy some new cables or mpingo blocks to set them on

[wgscott]

6 hours ago, Kuja said:

 

Hardly, since I did not expect anything.

 

Sorry, this was in reference to your assumption that I was talking about vendor-supplied drivers.

[Kuja]

8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

since the claimed result seems at odds with how digital audio works,

 

How exactly digital audio is working? 

 

Apple Core Audio seems to have lots of components in different layers, so could it be possible that some changes were introduced in newer OS X versions that could cause differences in SQ?

 

Yes, there are different modes, direct, integer, etc, with shorter path to the audio hardware,

but still, differences in SQ exist between Audirvana, Amarra, HQPlayer...

 

There are lots of discussions on this forum regarding differences in SQ between different players

or even SQ differences between different versions of the same player.

 

These differences are also imagined?

 

If different playback software can sound different,

could there be some differences between different versions of various audio components in different OS X versions?

 

 I never wrote "different" so many times in my life!   

 

 

 

 

[wgscott]

Many, if not all, of these claimed differences you list do not really exist outside of an expectation-biased listener's mind.  Those that do sound different, like Audirvana direct mode, are due to a genuine physical or mechanistic difference in playback.