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JCAT's $5000 switch


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14 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Bias controlled testing will go a long way however. 


"Bias controlled testing?" without knowing exactly what you mean here in a world that is almost exclusively subjective, - (hopefully comparative listening evals).

 

Unfortunately, - it's not what the trolls are trolling about. But I guess talking about something that they have no clue about isn't ever going to stop them....

My question is, why don't they head over to the Gucci handbag forum? Certainly the markup on jewelry is a prime target....  (Improving the listening experience is nowhere close to their agendae).

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28 minutes ago, Albrecht said:


"Bias controlled testing?" without knowing exactly what you mean here in a world that is almost exclusively subjective, - (hopefully comparative listening evals).

 

Unfortunately, - it's not what the trolls are trolling about. But I guess talking about something that they have no clue about isn't ever going to stop them....

My question is, why don't they head over to the Gucci handbag forum? Certainly the markup on jewelry is a prime target....  (Improving the listening experience is nowhere close to their agendae).

 

I'm assuming that all the improvements Marcin is speaking to can simply be evaluated without knowing if the switch is or isn't in play for a track. 

 

I'm assuming that there is some method, by ears, that Marcin is basing claims on. Unless there is another method of subjective evaluation that you know about that isn't using one's ears. 

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1 minute ago, plissken said:

I'm assuming that there is some method, by ears, that Marcin is basing claims on. Unless there is another method of subjective evaluation that you know about that isn't using one's ears.

Using one's eyes, of course. Specifically, they should be pointed at the price tag.

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23 hours ago, lmitche said:

Yes, I have an m12 network on my boat. Everything is connected including the engine controls and instrumentation including gps receiver, radar, sonar, AIS and vhf radio.

 

The round connectors are waterproof and lock in place which is important in salt water environments. The cables look like coax, so must have major shielding around the signal conductors. Most things connect via t-connectors as I have no switch or hub. It's not unlike 10 base 2 coax or thin Ethernet, but has more conducts.

 

This is the one: http//www.raymarine.com/view/?id=3838

 

My guess is the cable design and connectors have a big impact. I'm tempted to buy another and dissect it. Stay tuned.

 

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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11 hours ago, lmitche said:

 

This is the one: http//www.raymarine.com/view/?id=3838

 

My guess is the cable design and connectors have a big impact. I'm tempted to buy another and dissect it. Stay tuned.

 

 

This type is called Ethercat and uses a 4 wire screened cable often used in industrial PLC installations.

 

_20180322_121235.thumb.JPG.28e326babf7776c4cc610af2800360df.JPG

 

 

Main system
TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, 
Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC
HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC)
 
Second system
Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree
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On 14/03/2018 at 10:38 PM, Marcin_gps said:

The details of the internal design have to remain confidential. This is what I can share that I received from the Japan Telegärtner Ltd.:

 

Our M12 Switch Gold is not bound with those specifications of data transfer and electrical characteristics as a switching hub.  Therefore, it is difficult to evaluate by a simple comparison with those for commercially available ones.

The negativeness in various aspects such as EMI/EMC, electro-static field, induction, noise caused by subtle vibration of the chassis is taken into consideration, and the model design including various mechanical features and its assembly procedure are determined.
To realise these, absorbers and suppression parts are adopted in the model, and torque management takes place in various spots during the assembly.
The round M12 X-coded connctors have added a positive effect.
These are aimed for getting rid of a negative influence from the M12 Switch Gold to other pieces of connected network equipment such as supurious emission and transmission noise generated by the M12 Switch Gold, as well as for protecting the switch itself if an external inductive or electro-static influence comes in.

PCs, various network boards, switching hubs and routers are network equipment that transmits and receives various data, but become a signal source of transmitting and receiving unnecessary radio wave and noise (= subtle current) simultaneously.
A very high level of consideration is required to sweep these negative aspects.  The M12 Switch Gold uses aborbers and suppressors for that reason.

 

-----------------------

 

For those of you who are genuinely interested in the product, there will be several reviews soon, also in the US. I may arrange a demo tour among forum users too. 

 

Best regards,

Marcin

!!! Says nothing.

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On 15/03/2018 at 8:58 PM, diecaster said:

John Swenson has proved that high impedance noise makes it through the transformers. The key is eliminate as much of that noise as possible. With the Netgear GS-105 and GS105, you can greatly reduce that noise by grounding the negative line of the switch power input.

 

You don't need these crazy expensive switches to get the best signal.

What is high impedance noise?

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On 21/03/2018 at 11:30 PM, lmitche said:

 

This is the one: http//www.raymarine.com/view/?id=3838

 

My guess is the cable design and connectors have a big impact. I'm tempted to buy another and dissect it. Stay tuned.

 

The connectors are chosen to give a watertight seal as standard RJ45's do not, common practice for Ethernet in extreme conditions, end result Ethernet signal gets from one end to the other...

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2 hours ago, Albrecht said:

There are 5 paragraphs, - did you not see or read them?

yes, I read them, it says nothing...

Like PC motherboards, the implementation and layout of Ethernet interfaces (Phy, magnetic's, connectors etc.) are well defined and on the surface one interface looks pretty much like another, especially as there are generally layout guides in the data sheet or an evaluation board to provide an example of how the design should be laid out. The finesse comes in the detail, my preference is to have a return plane for each signal layer (even better stripline with a return path top and bottom, though some signal are better run as microstrip, with return path underneath, solder resist and air above.), power planes if costs permit done as capacitively coupled planes, the best option for a low impedance PDS (power delivery system) at the frequencies required, coupled with 0201 ceramic chip decoupling caps as close to the pins as possible, via's down to the power the opposite side of the pins for QFN controllers, opposite side directly under the pads for BGA's. The boards for best results are better done as HDI designs:

https://www.we-online.com/web/fr/index.php/show/media/04_leiterplatte/2011_2/relaunch/produkte_5/microvia_hdi/141030_DesignGuide_HDI_1_1.pdf

My preference is all HDI layers with stacked microvia's, this allows you to select the layer pairs for signals and return paths and avoid the via stubs you get with standard PTH via's, reducing impedance mismatches on signal lines and getting the ultimate signal integrity. There are other considerations, such as impedance controlled routing, return path stitching via's when a signal changes layer. etc. etc.

Do this every day for over 30 years and you get the hang of it all and can comment on the content of some posts.:D

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1 hour ago, marce said:

yes, I read them, it says nothing...

Like PC motherboards, the implementation and layout of Ethernet interfaces (Phy, magnetic's, connectors etc.) are well defined and on the surface one interface looks pretty much like another, especially as there are generally layout guides in the data sheet or an evaluation board to provide an example of how the design should be laid out. The finesse comes in the detail, my preference is to have a return plane for each signal layer (even better stripline with a return path top and bottom, though some signal are better run as microstrip, with return path underneath, solder resist and air above.), power planes if costs permit done as capacitively coupled planes, the best option for a low impedance PDS (power delivery system) at the frequencies required, coupled with 0201 ceramic chip decoupling caps as close to the pins as possible, via's down to the power the opposite side of the pins for QFN controllers, opposite side directly under the pads for BGA's. The boards for best results are better done as HDI designs:

https://www.we-online.com/web/fr/index.php/show/media/04_leiterplatte/2011_2/relaunch/produkte_5/microvia_hdi/141030_DesignGuide_HDI_1_1.pdf

My preference is all HDI layers with stacked microvia's, this allows you to select the layer pairs for signals and return paths and avoid the via stubs you get with standard PTH via's, reducing impedance mismatches on signal lines and getting the ultimate signal integrity. There are other considerations, such as impedance controlled routing, return path stitching via's when a signal changes layer. etc. etc.

Do this every day for over 30 years and you get the hang of it all and can comment on the content of some posts.:D

"The details of the internal design have to remain confidential. "

 

Means something. You may not like what it means, - but that's *different* than "nothing"

 

You are not the audience for this device, nor are you a potential purchaser, and what your subjective values are on a (potentially better sounding) chip within the switch are not of a concern here. The only concern here is does the device enhance the listening experience within an appropriate context through comparative listening tests, - or does it not?

Your speculations on the basis of the little information provided, - are of little to no value. The audience & potential buyers for this device are those with (likely) a system well north of $200K, - not-lamp-cord-for-speaker-cable naysayers....  Yes, - there's little technical information, - but is not the same as "nothing."

 

""Do this every day for over 30 years and you get the hang of it all and can comment on the content of some posts.:D""

Of course myself, or anyone else here can comment on the content of posts, and any comments based on LISTENING EXPERIENCES with the devices are always better than the design/EE specs of any device or the experiences of electrical engineers on other designs outside the realm of higher performance audio gear. Since none of us have heard the device,  it's efficacy and ultimate value is yet to be determined. Further, - for most people,  - (me included), it's price alone excludes it from consideration.

 

 

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11 hours ago, marce said:

What is high impedance noise?

Without reading any of the preceding.

What it means to me is:

 

Noise voltages in/on high impedance circuits .

(that would be high impedance at the noise frequency)

 

While in low impedance circuits it's the noise currents that are important.

 

Note that many circuits are low impedance at some frequencies and high impedance at others.

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