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Blue or red pill?


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48 minutes ago, testikoff said:

The waveform delta of of my loosely aligned analogue capture 1 & 2 excerpts is not great, admittedly... The excerpts spectral delta, however, shows no substantial difference in spectrum within audible range, so regardless of small differences around 400Hz noted by others, they will be extremely hard to discern when the actual track excerpts are played back (not their refined null-test result produced by DiffMaker), IMHO...

Unfortunately there is no straightfoward, universally-plausible hypothesis for anything here. Best not form any conclusions about audibility based only on measurements.

 

As to audibility of differences caused by different software settings. I see the following possibilities  (perhaps there are more) 

1) under test the live streams are audibly different but this [/perhaps any?] adc cannot encode the difference 

2) under test the live streams are audibly different and the tascam recordings bear this out [no evidence so far]

3) under test the live streams are not audibly different (quaere Manis' test results are result of as yet unidentified protocol artefact) and the tascam recordings bear this out. 

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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46 minutes ago, STC said:

 

During the trial, I got the first 4 wrong and all correct till 30 then 8 in a row were wrong. I suspect there is a slight different between the left and right phase. Otherwise, I would not perceive change in the image. 

26/36 would be interesting. But it has to be in the test within the predetermined test length, not in the warm up. If you perceive a change in the image then that should show up in the test results.

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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2 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

@PeterSt and I have predicted, from pretty much the beginning of this thread, that:

1) there would be an audible difference in the A/B/X

2) there would be a) no measurable difference in the digital captures, and therefore b) no audible difference in the digital captures

3) there would be a) no meaningful measurable difference in the analogue captures (of the music track, not any test tones), and therefore b) no audible difference in the analogue captures

 

 

I agree that you and Peter predicted there would be no measurable or audible differences as above.

 

However, the therefores imply the contrary to the whole point of these last 95 pages

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6 minutes ago, psjug said:

Here is a view of a complex section of the tracks 3 and 4, low-pass filtered and aligned (I hope the jpg is OK).  They look exactly the same everywhere I've checked them in this way.

comp filt3-4.jpg

Interesting, low-passed at what frequency? If they look exactly the same then invert one and combine the tracks and see what you have got. "Looks like" is not a mathematical operator.

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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8 minutes ago, psjug said:

Here is a view of a complex section of the tracks 3 and 4, low-pass filtered and aligned (I hope the jpg is OK).  They look exactly the same everywhere I've checked them in this way.

comp filt3-4.jpg

 

Now zoom in a mile more.

Of course it looks the same at this (not) zoom level ...

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1 minute ago, Andyman said:

 

I agree that you and Peter predicted there would be no measurable or audible differences as above.

 

However, the therefores imply the contrary to the whole point of these last 95 pages

I agree, although "meaningful measurable" is a whole can of worms.

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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2 minutes ago, Andyman said:

I agree that you and Peter predicted there would be no measurable or audible differences as above.

 

However, the therefores imply the contrary to the whole point of these last 95 pages

 

Maybe not ...

Was it ever intended that you (we) were going to listen to the recorded files ? I don't think so. But we are trying that right now ...

 

Was it intended to even record the outputs and compare (with sense) ? OK OK ... by Mans. But not by me (wait, I am not conducting anything here - I only said it wouldn't work out).

... And it looks Mans obtained better results than I could predict. But I walk on thin ice saying that ...

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5 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Interesting, low-passed at what frequency? If they look exactly the same then invert one and combine the tracks and see what you have got. "Looks like" is not a mathematical operator.

I think it was 30kHz cutoff.  Just wanted to get rid of that high freq stuff that makes it hard to compare.  This was just offered FWIW.  I know this doesn't prove anything.

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So please keep in mind : 80 seconds. It was super easy. Also super easy to see.

 

Thus what is the problem here ? experience. You can pick where. Haha.

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2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

This took me 80 seconds (including unzipping) :

 

SFSMani01.thumb.png.ac408a5e037dde44778b07c9f33d5e8c.png

 

This is still way way NOT zoomed.

Does it look the same to you all ?

 

Difference is high freq stuff added by recorder, as I understand it.  That's why I LP filtered.

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Just completely different :

 

SFSMani03.thumb.png.e4c68cbae126605a5d98849951d84797.png

 

And no, I didn't change the alignment. It is just the level (general) amplitude which also changed which makes it look like misaligned.

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2 hours ago, adamdea said:

No surprises. No two analogue files null perfectly. Say they null to -90dB. Where does that take you until such time as some evidence emerges about there being an audible difference between the files? I have lost the thread as to whether there is any evidence as to whether the As and Bs are more like other As and Bs respectively than they are to each other.(either with test tones or music)

 

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two A captures (3 and 7):

A3-A7-spectrum.thumb.jpeg.0c5c45159b1d363af50280cfbc417d0e.jpeg

 

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two B captures (4 and 6):

B4-B6-spectrum.thumb.jpeg.25fcb6416d2a89261ad5aed56e6c8e55.jpeg

 

Note the absence of the extra frequencies that were there when examining A3-B4 residuals (posted earlier):

diff-maker.thumb.jpeg.a02f8defbdfa46c9f13b1bc4bb3775b8.jpeg

 

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3 minutes ago, psjug said:

Difference is high freq stuff added by recorder, as I understand it.  That's why I LP filtered.

 

You shouldn't have LPF'd that in the first place. So yes, there is noise. But look here (it's about the same zoom level as the one from yourself :

 

SFSMani04.thumb.png.99bd758d89e1bea4738312ec7f6e1566.png

 

This is beyond noise. This is really different. Look at the shape of the lower channel's first "cycle". Or the upper channel's 2nd.

 

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8 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

You shouldn't have LPF'd that in the first place. So yes, there is noise. But look here (it's about the same zoom level as the one from yourself :

 

SFSMani04.thumb.png.99bd758d89e1bea4738312ec7f6e1566.png

 

This is beyond noise. This is really different. Look at the shape of the lower channel's first "cycle". Or the upper channel's 2nd.

 

That is interesting.  Is this 3 and 4?  Why is it a problem to LP filter if the HF stuff is not coming from the 16/44 DAC, and presumably not part of the signal being played?

 

And if you can show differences this way, are the differences there only between A-B or are they there with A-A and B-B just the same.

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34 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two A captures (3 and 7):

 

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two B captures (4 and 6):

 

Note the absence of the extra frequencies that were there when examining A3-B4 residuals (posted earlier):

 

Hey, nice!

 

It looks like the differences are measurable in the analogue captures after all!

 

Well done!

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

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8 hours ago, adamdea said:

This puzzles me. When I play the difference file it sounds almost exactly like the track only quieter. But then that's without the drift correction. Is your difference file the one after drift correction

Yes that is with drift corrections.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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13 minutes ago, esldude said:

Yes that is with drift corrections.

Ok. Good work -suggests the drift correction works. Your null depth is 94.5 dB can you remind me whether that means

  • the highest bit or level value of the diff file (something like 16th bit level) or
  • the highest spectral component of the diff file. 

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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3 hours ago, mansr said:

Remember this figure and those similar to it?

mani-10k-fft-350.thumb.png.b1733847d25765468b857458c123a4b4.png

Those disturbances seem to coincide in frequency with peaks in the diffmaker plot.

 

@mansr, were the differences you found primarily in the 150-600Hz region, as @pkane2001 seems to have found?

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro

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57 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two A captures (3 and 7):

A3-A7-spectrum.thumb.jpeg.0c5c45159b1d363af50280cfbc417d0e.jpeg

 

Here's the spectrum of the difference of two B captures (4 and 6):

B4-B6-spectrum.thumb.jpeg.25fcb6416d2a89261ad5aed56e6c8e55.jpeg

 

Note the absence of the extra frequencies that were there when examining A3-B4 residuals (posted earlier):

diff-maker.thumb.jpeg.a02f8defbdfa46c9f13b1bc4bb3775b8.jpeg

 

That looks much better. This is after time aligning? When I compare 3 and 7 without any realignment I get the usual spectrum but peaking at about -101dB. for 5 and 7 much worse (-83 or so).

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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1 minute ago, adamdea said:

That looks much better. This is after time aligning? When I compare 3 and 7 without any realignment I get the usual spectrum but peaking at about -101dB. for 5 and 7 much worse (-83 or so).

 

I've done it both ways, manual alignment, and align using diffmaker. I'm not sure about drift compensation (that was not turned on in diffmaker) as that seems to attempt to adjust phase of the second file to match that of the reference. If there are phase differences, I'd like to know about them rather than to try to adjust them out :)

 

 

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1 hour ago, psjug said:

I think it was 30kHz cutoff.  Just wanted to get rid of that high freq stuff that makes it hard to compare.  This was just offered FWIW.  I know this doesn't prove anything.

Sorry not meaning to be snippy- just that you can see the difference if you just slect one track, invert (from effects) then highlight both tracks and select track> mix and combine to new track.  et voila.

You are not a sound quality measurement device

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