plissken Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 9:21 AM, Spacehound said: Is he providing naughty ladies too? Viagra is gender blind... Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, manisandher said: It's going to be interesting coming up with another explanation if mansr hears the differences I (and pretty much everyone else who's taken a listen) do, and yet the ADC captures are identical. But this is jumping the gun somewhat. Mani. Mani, It depends. You should not be discussing this, because it adds a bias that the topic has already been talked about. This is the same as going to an audio demonstration and the demonstrator tells you what to expect. Your brain fills in the rest based on what you were told. This is an interesting thread, but unless you do not talk about things, you are adding expectation bias. Not talking about it, means blind test and this would have been more reliable. This test basically means nothing now. Cheers, Bot semente 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
manisandher Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, botrytis said: This test basically means nothing now. What test? I didn't write anything in my previous post that I haven't written before. Mani. Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 test Whether it is or is not an 'official' test is besides the point. You are adding expectation bias in this listening. I try to just invite people without explaining, if there they hear something, it is not due to expectation. semente 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Shadders Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 34 minutes ago, manisandher said: It's going to be interesting coming up with another explanation if mansr hears the differences I (and pretty much everyone else who's taken a listen) do, and yet the ADC captures are identical. But this is jumping the gun somewhat. Mani. Hi, Not sure what the test will be - but any ADC in your house will be different to anything played through the speakers etc. from which the ADC was taken from. If it is the difference between the same track played via NAS, PC, or CD transport optical output etc., to a DAC, then buffering and noise can be the reason for the differences heard. If you cannot ensure that noise and buffering are the same for each source, then differences are possible. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
manisandher Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, botrytis said: test Whether it is or is not an 'official' test is besides the point. You are adding expectation bias in this listening. I try to just invite people without explaining, if there they hear something, it is not due to expectation. Yes, I can see the value in this. Let's just see what happens on the day. Mani. Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 21 hours ago, manisandher said: For sure. My feeling is to use XXHighEnd for the most part (there's so much you can play around with), and HQPlayer for any streaming vs. local file comparison we might make. In all comparisons, the compared files will be bit-for-bit identical. I've discussed how we would verify that this is the case. Mani. Ok, just want to make sure that the same player software is used, with the same settings, when doing A/B comparisons -- there's a lot a player can do to the bits before these are sent out to the DAC, even if the source files are exactly the same. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
mansr Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Ok, just want to make sure that the same player software is used, with the same settings, when doing A/B comparisons -- there's a lot a player can do to the bits before these are sent out to the DAC, even if the source files are exactly the same. The digital output will be captured and compared. pkane2001 1 Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 2 hours ago, plissken said: Viagra is gender blind... I'm not Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 "Temporal microstructure" ... means nothing, but could mean something I wonder if it could be analogized (not to just resolution or pixel count) but to micro-contrast in optics... Link to comment
plissken Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Spacehound said: I'm not Just saying don't judge Link to comment
mansr Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: "Temporal microstructure" ... means nothing, but could mean something That's what makes it so insidious. 36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: I wonder if it could be analogized (not to just resolution or pixel count) but to micro-contrast in optics... Drawing analogies between audio and imaging is fraught with peril as there is no acoustic equivalent to the optical lens. Link to comment
esldude Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 minute ago, mansr said: That's what makes it so insidious. Drawing analogies between audio and imaging is fraught with peril as there is no acoustic equivalent to the optical lens. Yes, exactly. You can take a still photo and look at it in optics even though your eye never really sees it quite this way. There is no equivalent still unchanging way to record audio and hear it in one instant. You can look at a photo, take your time shift your attention. Audio is not amenable to doing that with your ear. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
mansr Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, esldude said: Yes, exactly. You can take a still photo and look at it in optics even though your eye never really sees it quite this way. There is no equivalent still unchanging way to record audio and hear it in one instant. You can look at a photo, take your time shift your attention. Audio is not amenable to doing that with your ear. It's worse than that. Due to the optical focusing system, an image has distortions with no equivalent whatsoever in a sound recording. That said, there are valid comparisons to be made. For example, aliasing from undersampling might be seen as a moiré pattern in an image a brick wall. Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 5 hours ago, pkane2001 said: Ok, just want to make sure that the same player software is used, with the same settings, when doing A/B comparisons -- there's a lot a player can do to the bits before these are sent out to the DAC, even if the source files are exactly the same. Not if both comparison files are saved to, AND played back from the same storage device, whether HDD,SSD,USB memory OR even as adjoining tracks on a CD-R. Mansr will find no differerences looking at DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if hears differences himself !!! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
esldude Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 49 minutes ago, mansr said: It's worse than that. Due to the optical focusing system, an image has distortions with no equivalent whatsoever in a sound recording. That said, there are valid comparisons to be made. For example, aliasing from undersampling might be seen as a moiré pattern in an image a brick wall. A bit off topic. Some good optics and seeing things real time with my eyes can put me in a trance more easily than the music can. I get lost in the cosmos as quaint as that sounds. Plus my current smartphone can take an image if simply held in front of the eyepiece which is pretty darn good versus what I see real time. The recordings on my smart phone of audio is nowhere close. (oh and just a side comment. I put music from my smartphone in a post of several dacs once and it wasn't obvious to anyone other than John Swenson). And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, sandyk said: Not if both comparison files are saved to, AND played back from the same storage device, whether HDD,SSD,USB memory OR even as adjoining tracks on a CD-R. Mansr will find no differerences looking at DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if hears differences himself !!! You’re missing my point.. Playing the same exact file using two different players or the same player with different settings can easily invalidate the test. You’re then comparing two players and their internal processing and not two storage devices. That’s why capturing the digital output to the DAC is critical to ensure that the same digital samples are being sent to it in both cases, as Mansr already said he’ll do. -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 will there be an osciilloscope available to check the input to the dac circuitry? my guess is that if there is an audible difference it will be due to the noise signature caused by differences in timing. Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: You’re missing my point.. Playing the same exact file using two different players or the same player with different settings can easily invalidate the test. You’re then comparing two players and their internal processing and not two storage devices. That’s why capturing the digital output to the DAC is critical to ensure that the same digital samples are being sent to it in both cases, as Mansr already said he’ll do. Why would you complicate matters by using different players or different settings when you wish to rule out other influences ? Mansr will NOT find any differences between DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if he reports hearing differences under correctly performed DBT conditions ! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, sandyk said: Mansr will NOT find any differences between DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if he reports hearing differences under correctly performed DBT conditions ! Anyone taking bets? -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Anyone taking bets? 15 minutes ago, sandyk said: Why would you complicate matters by using different players or different settings when you wish to rule out other influences ? Mansr will NOT find any differences between DIGITAL files with identical checksums even if he reports hearing differences under correctly performed DBT conditions ! if they both hear differences, they will find differences in the a-d files, if quality a-d equpment. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 2 hours ago, mansr said: That's what makes it so insidious. Drawing analogies between audio and imaging is fraught with peril as there is no acoustic equivalent to the optical lens. Flipper and his Cetacean buddies differ with this assertion!! Link to comment
sandyk Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 52 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Flipper and his Cetacean buddies differ with this assertion!! Flipper was female.The part was played by 5 female dolphins. rando 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Spacehound Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 4 hours ago, plissken said: Just saying don't judge I shall judge as much as I want. If we don't judge PC will make all these other things compulsory real soon. And in the UK I can legally refuse to sell a cake to anyone who doesn't meet with my approval. "The World's Most Exclusive Cake Maker" might well be a very successful business Link to comment
rando Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Can you legally pick up a free range cake out of a pasture and serve it in such a way the recipient can't help but eat some? Link to comment
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