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The Best for the Least


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25 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I've no problem DBT'ing the Modi 2

 

And now we have come full circle, as circumnavigational arguments generally do. You are willing to put the Schiit Modi 2 ($99) up against what in a DBT?

 

I have conducted testing, with my home system--no instruments other than those odd things inside my outer ears--my inner ears. I prefer the sound of the Modi 2 over the closest iFi competitor-- the iDSD nano LE ($129) and my objective opinion was that the amplification stage for the headphones altered the SQ in the line (RCA) output, and no a 'good difference'

 

I said that I wished that they had not run the line output through that amp. To further my opinion--I don't want or need a portable headphone amplifier and DAC combo.

 

The long-awaited Pro IDAC  did not make it to market in the first quarter of 2017, and we are rapidly approaching the second quarter of 2018, still, crickets are chirping over at iFi Audio about a pro version of their DAC at $2,000.

 

Methinks that the Yggy has turned the tables in that $2K price bracket, and iFi has nothing in the pipeline to compare with the Schiit. The iOne uses the same Burr-Brown chipset as the nano line, but without the headphone amp--and to my ears, it sounds as good as the Schiit Modi 2, when used with the iPurifier2' active noise cancellation--for about the same price. (I have not tested the $99 Wyrd "USB-decrapifier" against the iFi 100x Active Noise Cancellation technology, but the iPurifier2 runs $109, vs. $99 for the Schiit )

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25 minutes ago, plissken said:

Items like the zero crosding glitch glitch in the Yggdrasil were much ado about nothing to people who listen rather than look. 

 

 Did Mani look first , or listen first ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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8 hours ago, GUTB said:

Looking at my system:

Custom linear power PC: $1.5k

Holo Cyan DSD: $1k

Schiit Freya + tubes: $1k

Linnenberg Allegros: $5.5k

Fritz Carbon VII SEs: $2.5k

Cables: $2k

 

Add power stuff and software and we’re around $14k. If I add the turntable gear I’m up to $16k. Room treatments are definitely over $1k....

 

So what could I do to bring this down to the bare minimum I could live with?

 

Source: Gigabyte/MSI motherboard with clean USB custom PC - $0.5k

DAC: Chinese dual transformer 9038 / 4497 DIY - $0.3k

Amp / Pre: NAD 316 - $0.3k (used)

Speakers: Fritz Carbon VII SEs - $2.5k (I haven’t anything less that I could live with).

Cables: Amplifer Surgery silver plated interconnects and Audio Sensability speaker cables - $0.5k

 

So a little over $4k. The main problem is finding speakers I won’t hate for less than $2.5k.

 

 

 

Given your affinity for exotic material drivers, you would have been much better served to buy something like:

 

Focal Kanta/Revel F208 Be/Magico A3    $10k

Parasound Halo Integrated    $2.5k

Cables/Room                           $1.5k

 

You spent 14k on a system anchored by "mid-fi" speakers.  I'm sure they sound good but they won't be enough for someone who likes Raidho's, Magico's, TAD's.  No wonder you think entry to "hi-fi" requires exorbitant amount of money.

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2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Why are you guys trying to push this meme that I only approve of high end gear?

 

 

Excuse me, but @GUTB  do you actually read what you write?

 

First, I don't care what you approve of...your opinion is no better than anyone else with access to a keyboard and the Internet. 

 

Second, "high-end" means "more expensive" or "sounds better"?  I can honestly say that I auditioned a $300K system that I didn't think sounded as good as my $500 system. It lacked enough power to get sound out of the 300lb. Loudspeakers.

 

It begged for an "11" on the volume control. That friend has since upgraded his loudspeakers and says that he was chasing a sound with speakers that were not designed for his listening room.

 

I will agree, although I have not heard the new speakers. In that case, the old speakers cost $20K new, and his "new" speakers cost in the $9,000 range. It begs the question if you have $20K invested in a pair of old speakers, can $280,000 make them sound as good as a pair of $9,000 speakers? Or not?

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23 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

Given your affinity for exotic material drivers, you would have been much better served to buy something like:

 

Focal Kanta/Revel F208 Be/Magico A3    $10k

Parasound Halo Integrated    $2.5k

Cables/Room                           $1.5k

 

You spent 14k on a system anchored by "mid-fi" speakers.  I'm sure they sound good but they won't be enough for someone who likes Raidho's, Magico's, TAD's.  No wonder you think entry to "hi-fi" requires exorbitant amount of money.

 

I totally agree. My next big upgrade is going to be speakers. TADs are out of my reach....MAYBE thier latest entry level standmounts...but honestly I really want the Evolution Ones. Maybe the new entry level Magicos. I was really impressed with GamuT standmounts too. ProAc is on my radar. These made-in-China Quads might be a value proposition. I keep hearing about how amazing the Kii Threes are, who knows...there’s options.

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3 minutes ago, esldude said:

That was a DAC that was helped considerably by a Regen.  Then again so would some affordable powered USB hubs.  

 

Hmmm.

Is that the first time ever,  that you have conceded that a USB Regen MAY improve USB Audio ?

What makes you so sure that it won't also offer some further improvement in a higher quality system, or after this one-off comment are you going back to quoting the rubbish spouted in another forum by  highly vocal measurement type persons (including Plissken) who believe that USB Regens are a Con Job ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Just now, sandyk said:

 

Hmmm.

Is that the first time ever,  that you have conceded that a USB Regen MAY improve USB Audio ?

What makes you so sure that it won't also offer some further improvement in a higher quality system, or after this one-off comment are you going back to quoting the rubbish spouted in another forum by  highly vocal measurement type persons (including Plissken) who believe that USB Regens are a Con Job ?

It is the only instance I know where a Regen helped unequivocally.  The same people tried measuring the Regen to find a benefit with other DACs.  I seemed to recall there was a case where it made a tiny, likely inaudible difference, and was a mixed bag.  Somethings a touch better some worse.  Mostly for all the DACs tested no one could find it did anything except sometimes  cause 60 hz harmonics to show up slightly higher.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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22 minutes ago, mansr said:

There is a point beyond which measured improvements are no longer audible. Many audiophiles nevertheless chant the everything matters mantra, even when there is no measurable difference or plausible mechanism known to science that could possibly have an effect. Yet, demonstrably poor measured performance is shrugged off with a "sounds good" excuse. Where is the logic in this?

I’m not shrugging off the Modi measurements. I’m asking for evidence the entire brand is faulty because that was the claim. 

 

I don’t see logic in what you said either. 

 

I’m also not big on pushing DBT but I like to use objectivist reasoning when objectivists are making an argument that seems to go against their beliefs. 

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10 minutes ago, esldude said:

It is the only instance I know where a Regen helped unequivocally.  The same people tried measuring the Regen to find a benefit with other DACs.  I seemed to recall there was a case where it made a tiny, likely inaudible difference, and was a mixed bag.  Somethings a touch better some worse.  Mostly for all the DACs tested no one could find it did anything except sometimes  cause 60 hz harmonics to show up slightly higher.  

 

 Yet 1,000s of C.A. members love their Regens, including ISO Regens.

You still haven't tried using one with your DAC have you ?:P

Perhaps if the Meanwell SMPS used to power the Regens originally had their  0 volts rails earthed, the measurements may have been markedly better ?

Actually, I obtain a higher order of performance when powering a Regen via a 12V 15,000mAH Lin Ion battery etc.

USB hates any additional capacitance to Mains Earth via the power supply used !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Yet 1,000s of C.A. members love their Regens, including ISO Regens.

You still haven't tried using one with your DAC have you ?:P

Perhaps if the Meanwell SMPS used to power the Regens originally had their  0 volts rails earthed, the measurements may have been markedly better ?

Actually, I obtain a higher order of performance when powering a Regen via a 12V 15,000mAH Lin Ion battery etc.

USB hates any additional capacitance to Mains Earth via the power supply used !

It would appear a different power supply may have kept the 60 hz components from showing up.  Anything more I don't have an expectation for happening.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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3 minutes ago, mansr said:

It certainly indicates misplaced priorities, whether or not that qualifies as incompetence. They keep banging on about things like "true multibit" with no actual relevance while making repeated slip-ups such as those you mention. Such behaviour does not inspire trust.

Yes, and whether they knew it and thought it no concern (in the Yiggy and the amp they knew) or in some cases didn't know, you only learned about the issues when third parties made it known.  So there is indeed that matter of trust.  

 

Oh and they upgraded USB inputs they were doing for months without telling anyone such was going on.  I know they didn't want every DAC to get returned all at once.  Still, maybe an ordered announcement and a program of orderly upgrades would have made customers feel better. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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3 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

I totally agree. My next big upgrade is going to be speakers. TADs are out of my reach....MAYBE thier latest entry level standmounts...but honestly I really want the Evolution Ones. Maybe the new entry level Magicos. I was really impressed with GamuT standmounts too. ProAc is on my radar. These made-in-China Quads might be a value proposition. I keep hearing about how amazing the Kii Threes are, who knows...there’s options.

 

TAD ME-1 and Kii Three have similar MSRP.  I've heard both albeit in different settings.  I prefer the ME-1 over the Kii's but would be perfectly happy with the Kii's as well.

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3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Hmmm.

Is that the first time ever,  that you have conceded that a USB Regen MAY improve USB Audio ?

What makes you so sure that it won't also offer some further improvement in a higher quality system, or after this one-off comment are you going back to quoting the rubbish spouted in another forum by  highly vocal measurement type persons (including Plissken) who believe that USB Regens are a Con Job ?

 

It means it took an objectivist to do what the manufacturer failed to do. This is the same objectivist that showed the original Regen added noise to otherwise competent DAC outputs.

 

It's the same objectivist that showed the LPS-1 supercap PSU added noise to otherwise competent DAC's. 

 

There's a pattern here and and no, you don't get to cherry pick. 

 

This is what has led me to believe that these devices make a difference by 'getting dirty' and that audiophiles like that added distortions. 

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3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m not shrugging off the Modi measurements. I’m asking for evidence the entire brand is faulty because that was the claim. 

 

I don’t see logic in what you said either. 

 

I’m also not big on pushing DBT but I like to use objectivist reasoning when objectivists are making an argument that seems to go against their beliefs. 

 

Chris, there was zero going against beliefs. So much so that you could provide a handful of DAC's. Simply run out some RCA test leads with the rest of the DAC behind a curtain and I'll tell you which are shit via instrumentation. 

 

I don't need to know the manufacturer, the model #, the price to tell that it's a problem. 100% bias removed. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m not shrugging off the Modi measurements. I’m asking for evidence the entire brand is faulty because that was the claim. 

 

I don’t see logic in what you said either. 

 

I’m also not big on pushing DBT but I like to use objectivist reasoning when objectivists are making an argument that seems to go against their beliefs. 

I know nothing about  Modi measurements.

 

But mansr's  logic is impeccable.  It's nuts (and illogical)   to dismiss measurements  but accept 'unknown to science' stuff.

 

As for DBTs although I am a 'dyed in the wool' objectivist I think they are a complete waste of time from any 'personal' viewpoint.

I go to a store and listen to the piece I have in mind. I may listen to a couple of other pieces in my price range. Unless they show the first piece to be useless I buy the original one.

So  for me  personally what's the point of a blind test? And surely that applies to everyone else when buying stuff - if they like it they buy it, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or how it 'measures', you aren't buying a test instrument, you are buying something you like.

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39 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

It means it took an objectivist to do what the manufacturer failed to do. This is the same objectivist that showed the original Regen added noise to otherwise competent DAC outputs.

 

It's the same objectivist that showed the LPS-1 supercap PSU added noise to otherwise competent DAC's. 

 

There's a pattern here and and no, you don't get to cherry pick. 

 

This is what has led me to believe that these devices make a difference by 'getting dirty' and that audiophiles like that added distortions. 

 

That's BS.

 Numerous members have obtained markedly improved SQ using a USB Regen simply by either grounding the 0 volts of the supplied Meanwell SMPS, or better still, using a low noise Linear PSU to power the Regen.

Even better is to power the Regen using a 12V Li Ion battery with no connection to mains earth whatsoever.

Even when using an R-Core transformer in a Linear PSU to power the Regen, connecting the transformer's shield wire to Mains Earth causes a small degradation in SQ due to the increased capacitance to mains earth.

 I fitted a toggle switch to this PSU to verify these results readily, simply by connecting /disconnecting the shield to earth connection.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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12 hours ago, esldude said:

Well the Dayton Audio subs are surprisingly good for not much money.  Not as good as SVS or Rhythmik.  They are able to provide bass and not muck up the rest of the sound.  Their main shortcoming is playing bass with extreme loudness.  In the role of taking the load off of smaller speakers and providing a commensurate level of bass to go with it they work pretty well. 

 

$149 for a powered 12 inch, and $198 for a 15 inch. 

 

If one has the room, where they can utilized in a distributed sub assembly, one can manage room modes and such with several subs in several locations.  So in some cases a set of 4 subs spread around correctly vs one good sub in one location might be a valid alternative for the same money.  Of course if money weren't a factor I would go with 4 Rhythmiks.  

I bought  a car 'bass boom box' from the local car accessory shop and it includes an amp and an adjustable filter. 100 dollars UK equivalent. And it came with glued on thick 'car carpet' material so it has to be non-resonant.

 

Works fine, though I only did it as an 'experiment' :)  

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