The Best for the Least

[Fluffytime]

11 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

This juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs belief is striking. What do you base your belief of small class D monitors with plastic baffles performance on besides they are mentioned a lot on the Internet?

 

You want to talk about "experience"?

 

I'm new here (but not new to this hobby), and as far as I can tell, up untill a year ago you owned nothing but headphones.

And now you're suddenly an expert on speakers and amps?

 

That's hilarious.

[One and a half]

59 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

$152.84 Supermicro X10SBA-L
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00F0YJC28

 

$70.28 Supermicro CSE-101S
http://www.wiredzone.com/supermicro-racks-kvm-chassis-power-server-chassis-mini-tower-cse-101s-10024456

 

$49.98 JRiver Media Center

https://rover.jriver.com/cgi-bin/buy.cgi?productid=76

 

$49.00 iFi iPower 12V Power Supply
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01LZD8SHJ

 

$900.00 Used Chord 2Qute (prices will continue to drop after the launch of Quetest)
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-black-chord-2qute-sold.870262/

 

$695.00 to $3,195.00 Omega Monitor Speakers

https://omegaloudspeakers.com/collections/monitor-speakers
 

Just add stuff like cheap RAM and SSD, and then there's no need to activate Windows 10.

 

Supermicro X10SBA-L (chosen for the excellent Innuos ZENith SE Mk.II) is a fantastic motherboard for the money

 

http://hifipig.com/innuos-zenith-mk2/

 

Hard to beat the transparency of the Chord + Omega combo since we don't even need an amplifier, volume control is handled by JRiver Media Center

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/24248-chord-2qute/?page=14

The Supermicro server's supplied power supply is 60W. The ifi 12V supply is capable of 1.8A, that is 21.6W, 38.4W short. 60W at 12V is 5A, there needs to be an alternative since the paralleling ifi iPower is not easy if not improbably difficult to achieve load sharing. Besides, the iPower still is SMPS and to be avoided, I replaced an iPower with a linear PSU and the iPower is staying in the drawer. Teddy Pardo designs or a cast of others would fulfil 60W at 12V easily enough.

[Sonicularity]

A plethora of anecdotal experiences in a field rife with biases feeding off absurdity in marketing has very little value to someone looking for tangible information to support a more objective evaluation.    

[GUTB]

It weighs 10 lbs and so is unable to well control resonance. The little cheap 5" driver being run by a tiny class D module will never be able to move a satisfying amount of air. They are designed for near-field monitoring (ie, not for serious home listening). Class D sucks, that’s well-established — and even if you believe in ultra high-end class D modules used in serious audiophile amps — the baby mass market junk in these things are not suitable for serious audiophiles.

 

Why does class D suck? Pulse-width modulation operates between 400-500 kHz and in order to clean up the output and produce a usable analog waveform out the other end very aggressive filtering is needed. Bandwidth is severely limited and the time domain is damaged. Our ears HATE class D switching artifacts.

[seeteeyou]

42 minutes ago, One and a half said:

The Supermicro server's supplied power supply is 60W. The ifi 12V supply is capable of 1.8A, that is 21.6W, 38.4W short. 60W at 12V is 5A, there needs to be an alternative since the paralleling ifi iPower is not easy if not improbably difficult to achieve load sharing. Besides, the iPower still is SMPS and to be avoided, I replaced an iPower with a linear PSU and the iPower is staying in the drawer. Teddy Pardo designs or a cast of others would fulfil 60W at 12V easily enough.

 

Lots of theories that turned out to be very different from what's happening in practice

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=244&tab=comments#comment-774699

6 hours ago, jean-michel6 said:

I do have a dual pc set up with x10 sba board. 

I am using only the 12v connector to power them. 

All the accessories have their own dedicated psu. 

I have been able to power the board with simple 12v 1.8A IFI power psu. 

The results are already very good. 

You want really to avoid the pico psi which is so noisy. 

I used to have a gigabyte set up with 4 battery psu 2 for the CPU and 2 for the pico psu. 

Results were far away for the X10 sba. 

I will later power them with sotm sps 500

 

I wouldn't have mentioned iPower if the keywords weren't "The Best for the Least".

[Sonicularity]

10 minutes ago, GUTB said:

It weighs 10 lbs and so is unable to well control resonance. The little cheap 5" driver being run by a tiny class D module will never be able to move a satisfying amount of air. They are designed for near-field monitoring (ie, not for serious home listening). Class D sucks, that’s well-established — and even if you believe in ultra high-end class D modules used in serious audiophile amps — the baby mass market junk in these things are not suitable for serious audiophiles.

 

Why does class D suck? Pulse-width modulation operates between 400-500 kHz and in order to clean up the output and produce a usable analog waveform out the other end very aggressive filtering is needed. Bandwidth is severely limited and the time domain is damaged. Our ears HATE class D switching artifacts.

 

What is the context of your definition of something that either sucks or is meant for serious home listening?  If it is not something demonstrable with measurements that can be understood and used for comparisons, how are you able to make any rational determination to define these attributes?

[fas42]

47 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 The little cheap 5" driver being run by a tiny class D module will never be able to move a satisfying amount of air.

 

Just on that point, a "cheap 5" driver" "will never be able to move a satisfying amount of air" - irrespective of how it's driven - is a nonsense. I've had it demonstrated to myself, over and over again, that small, low cost drivers connected to an amplifier of relatively low power, in which the whole setup has been carefully optimised, can deliver sound which is deafening, and alternatively, highly satisfying.

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Lots of theories that turned out to be very different from what's happening in practice

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=244&tab=comments#comment-774699

 

I wouldn't have mentioned iPower if the keywords weren't "The Best for the Least".

Theory huh. No theory about it. iPower is good for something else like a router/modem that sort of thing. Manufacturers provide the minimum size power supply, there's no financial gain to supply any extra, because the competitors won't either.

[esldude]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

There’s no chance that these little plastic class D toy speakers  are any good.

So you haven't heard them.  Hahahahahaha!

[opus101]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Why does class D suck? Pulse-width modulation operates between 400-500 kHz and in order to clean up the output and produce a usable analog waveform out the other end very aggressive filtering is needed. Bandwidth is severely limited and the time domain is damaged.

 

No shortage of old wives tales there GUTB. The waveform coming out of an unfiltered classD amp is perfectly usable by a speaker, just the excellent efficiency of classD would suffer too much and most likely EMI would be sprayed too liberally around. Bandlimiting isn't the issue (assuming there's not appreciable incursion into the audible band) since RBCD (brickwalled at 20kHz) sounds fine.

[esldude]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

This juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs belief is striking. What do you base your belief of small class D monitors with plastic baffles performance on besides they are mentioned a lot on the Internet?

You based your opinion on never having heard the speakers you are saying can be no good.  So yes, the juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs your uneducated and un-experienced  belief is very striking.  

 

I base my opinion on having owned them, used them as monitors for mixing music I have recorded, and from having plopped them down in front of some Soundlab ESL's and listened to them.  They don't equal those Soundlabs.  They do provide a refreshingly good musical experience for peanuts.  A worthy entrant into the best for least.  

 

Now if one reads best for least as being best possible sound quality for the least money then these small speakers wouldn't fit.  I took it as being a search for components that deliver a solid dose of quality musical fidelity without being overly expensive.  

[Sonicularity]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

So you haven't heard them.  Hahahahahaha!

 

I'd rather see how the speakers measure in a room where they might typically be set up.  I can guess how GUTB would evaluate almost any audio equipment, including transducers.  Just plot a graph with the quality increasing at some direct relationship with the price.

 

[GUTB]

I am told over and over and over and over and OVER again how price doesn’t equal quality. Fine, that’s a truism. Now let’s see if the reality is going along with that. These JBL near-field monitors don’t compete with Riahdos, Magicos, TADs, etc, and literally everyone knows it. So where are the $300 Wilsons? Price doesn’t equal quality after all.

[buonassi]

3 hours ago, Sonicularity said:

A plethora of anecdotal experiences in a field rife with biases feeding off absurdity in marketing has very little value to someone looking for tangible information to support a more objective evaluation.    

First off, I will be using this as my signature on head-fi (bahahaha) with proper attribution, of course.  Secondly, I have yet to read any single sentence that can as effectively shut down any debate in hifi.  This sentence has more power than "that's what she said" or ending a sentence with "in bed".  Bravo.

[sdolezalek]

So  much unhappiness, discontent and disagreement in response to what should be a simple question.  Other than Ralf11's suggestion of a $10k system is anyone else here very happy with their system at a price point less than that? (I ask about "their system" because anyone can put together a theoretically great sounding system on paper, I much prefer a system someone has personally chosen to live with long term and is willing to stand up for its excellence.)

$6k Maggie 3.7i speakers

$2.4k Schiit Yggy DAC

$0.7k Schiit Vidar amp

- 0 -  your existing computer onto which you rip your existing CDs

$0.1k cables

--------------

call it $10k for a really fine system; 

 

I'm quite happy with mine that also includes a bunch of very attractively priced Maggies, but except for the manufacturer discount, it doesn't qualify as "Least Cost." 

[relaxwithjazz]

Used

MC152 $3K

Focal 1028BE $5K

Mytek Brooklyn $1600

[Confused]

9 hours ago, davide256 said:

Hmm. Depends on your standards. I could survive with an Aries mini/internal SSD, a NAD 316BEE integrated amp and the KEF LS50's, about $2K there in cost. Hard to think of a combination below that which would keep me interested in the music. I have or have had these all at some point ( the NAD was a purchase for my son)

 

I think the LS50's would be a fine choice in a cost-effective system, you can double the price of the KEFs and still struggle to find anything significantly better.  This makes me think about the 'wireless' / active LS50.  $2200 for a fully active system?  Depending on what you are looking for, this might be very hard to better for the price.

[Melvin]

In the $1500 & under category:

 

$500 - Bluesound Node 2

$190 - APPJ PA0901A integrated amp

  $40 - Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7

  $40 - Mullard EL84 (matched pair)

$700 - Omega Super 3i Monitors

 

Add cables, NAS and/or streaming service and you're good to go.

 

It sounds a whole lot better than it ought to at this price point. Obviously it sucks according to some here at CA.

[eclectic]

5 hours ago, esldude said:

You based your opinion on never having heard the speakers you are saying can be no good.  So yes, the juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs your uneducated and un-experienced  belief is very striking.  

 

I base my opinion on having owned them, used them as monitors for mixing music I have recorded, and from having plopped them down in front of some Soundlab ESL's and listened to them.  They don't equal those Soundlabs.  They do provide a refreshingly good musical experience for peanuts.  A worthy entrant into the best for least.  

 

Now if one reads best for least as being best possible sound quality for the least money then these small speakers wouldn't fit.  I took it as being a search for components that deliver a solid dose of quality musical fidelity without being overly expensive.  

 

I've got a pair of LSR305s in my bedroom system. White ones to match the decor..

 

I  bought them unheard via the net. I was stunned when I first fired them up and listened. Fed by an IQaudio PiDac+ and Roon they sound fantastic. A real bargain available for less than 200 UKP for the pair. I listen to them from about 10 feet away

 

A sub would make an improvement for sure. The lows need a bit of dsp in Roon to add weight. I'd get the matching sub but they don't do it in white and therefore it doesn't meet Mrs Eclectic's style rule. 

[Melvin]

In the $3000 and under category:

 

  $500 - Bluesound Node 2

  $600 - Schiit Bifrost Multibit

$1100 - Odyssey Audio Cyclops integrated

  $700 - Magnepan MMGi

 

 

Again, add cables, NAS and/or streaming service and you're good to go. 

 

No doubt this sucks too.

[semente]

10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

We will optimise two parameters that exhibit a somewhat inverse relationship by creating an indifference curve, not by arguing about a single point.

 

One point on the indiff. curve:

$6k Maggie 3.7i speakers

$2.4k Schiit Yggy DAC

$0.7k Schiit Vidar amp

- 0 -  your existing computer onto which you rip your existing CDs

$0.1k cables

--------------

call it $10k for a really fine system; toss in some DIY QRD and absorbers, bass traps if you want

 

...no it is not quite full range

 

 

10k is a lot of money.

What would you suggest for a 1 or 2k system?

[semente]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

I am told over and over and over and over and OVER again how price doesn’t equal quality. Fine, that’s a truism. Now let’s see if the reality is going along with that. These JBL near-field monitors don’t compete with Riahdos, Magicos, TADs, etc, and literally everyone knows it. So where are the $300 Wilsons? Price doesn’t equal quality after all.

 

Apparently nobody knows it but you...

[semente]

13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What's the best performance for the least amount of money?

 

I guess it depends on the budget.

Start by choosing the speakers (spend around 50% at least half of your budget), then move onwards from that.

 

With speakers more money provides more bass extension and higher SPL cability; one should give up on sub-bass and go for a near-field setup.

At less than 500 I would go for a 2-way speaker (more drivers for the same price means cheaper drivers and larger cabinet - you get more low frequency extension but less quality); add a sub if absolutely necessary or later as funds permit.

Avoid midwoofers smaller than 6" (and single-driver speakers because their performance is too limited/compromised at any price point).

 

A 2-way speaker in a near-field setup doesn't require a lot of power.

 

Good DACs are available for little money.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I’d never recommend spending a specific percentage on a single part of a system. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

[semente]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’d never recommend spending a specific percentage on a single part of a system. It just doesn’t make sense to me. 

 

I agree that I should have written at least half instead of 50%.

 

In my opinion and experience, if you are building a system with passive speakers on a low budget then a considerable amount of your money should go on the speakers.