The Best for the Least

[esldude]

Hey speakers are the toughest part.  JBL LSR 305 LSR now in mk2 version are a touchstone of value and performance.  $300/pair and powered.  Add any number of good DAC pres for small money.  Connect whatever computer or tablet you have.  You are done. Smsl or Topping have some fine measuring low cost DAC preamps. Some have xlr outs for feeding the JBLs.  Not even $1000 required for the whole shebang.

 

Not the only choices of course, but very good for the money.

[esldude]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

There’s no chance that these little plastic class D toy speakers  are any good.

So you haven't heard them.  Hahahahahaha!

[esldude]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

This juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs belief is striking. What do you base your belief of small class D monitors with plastic baffles performance on besides they are mentioned a lot on the Internet?

You based your opinion on never having heard the speakers you are saying can be no good.  So yes, the juxtaposition of experience and knowledge vs your uneducated and un-experienced  belief is very striking.  

 

I base my opinion on having owned them, used them as monitors for mixing music I have recorded, and from having plopped them down in front of some Soundlab ESL's and listened to them.  They don't equal those Soundlabs.  They do provide a refreshingly good musical experience for peanuts.  A worthy entrant into the best for least.  

 

Now if one reads best for least as being best possible sound quality for the least money then these small speakers wouldn't fit.  I took it as being a search for components that deliver a solid dose of quality musical fidelity without being overly expensive.  

[esldude]

8 hours ago, Sonicularity said:

 

I'd rather see how the speakers measure in a room where they might typically be set up.  I can guess how GUTB would evaluate almost any audio equipment, including transducers.  Just plot a graph with the quality increasing at some direct relationship with the price.

 

Some LSR 305 measurements from here:  http://noaudiophile.com/JBL_LSR305/

 

 

Here is a thread about the LSR308s with some good measurements in room.

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-lsr-308-in-the-house.1066/

 

Mostly taken at the listening position 10 feet away in a fair size room.  The owner of these usually listens to Martin Logans driven by large Krell amps. 

 

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-lsr-308-in-the-house.1066/

 

From that thread is the following.  Upper line 1/6th octave smoothing for a sweep response.  And the lower line is noise at 1/48th octave.

 

 

And the waterfall plot at 1/6th octave smoothing. 

 

 

[esldude]

12 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I think the wireless LS50's are a fine choice for a "once and done" system (non audiophiles). Doesn't work though if your planned mode of operation is to upgrade 1 system component annually.

I agree the LS50's are quite good, but I found I couldn't fully enjoy them without a subwoofer.  The sub didn't need to be extraordinarily expensive.  I thought them lean and lacking below 100 hz without that help.  Those speakers and a good sub are a good value for the performance you get to enjoy.  

[esldude]

59 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Interesting that you are paying more for transducing sub-bass than the rest of the range.

I wonder if there aren't any equally good but cheaper subs around?

Or better wider range speakers for $1300?

Well the Dayton Audio subs are surprisingly good for not much money.  Not as good as SVS or Rhythmik.  They are able to provide bass and not muck up the rest of the sound.  Their main shortcoming is playing bass with extreme loudness.  In the role of taking the load off of smaller speakers and providing a commensurate level of bass to go with it they work pretty well. 

 

$149 for a powered 12 inch, and $198 for a 15 inch. 

 

If one has the room, where they can utilized in a distributed sub assembly, one can manage room modes and such with several subs in several locations.  So in some cases a set of 4 subs spread around correctly vs one good sub in one location might be a valid alternative for the same money.  Of course if money weren't a factor I would go with 4 Rhythmiks.  

[esldude]

35 minutes ago, mansr said:

Yikes. What is the exact test being done here?

You can find complaints that Schiit DACs not just the $99 model let computer noise leak over USB.  Audible mouse movement, screen activities, hard drive noise.  I don't know of it being a complaint for say the Yiggy.  

 

So during some testing it was found over USB though not SPDIF, the Modi 2 had poor jitter performance.  And that the amount of jitter could be effected dramatically by what the connected PC was doing.  That is what you are seeing in that graph.  That was a DAC that was helped considerably by a Regen.  Then again so would some affordable powered USB hubs.  

 

Since then Schiit has been upgrading or adding to their DACs to make USB cleaner.  Presumably to fix this issue.  As it was audible PC noise like onboard sound cards from a decade back this was poor performance, and a case where seriously, no DBT needed.  

 

Other inexpensive DACs were tried and for instance the Behringer UHD204 for $79 performed better overall and was not at all sensitive to the USB connection.  Better being quieter noise floors, lower distortion etc. etc.  Oh and for that price the UHD204 also records mike or line level inputs etc. etc. 

[esldude]

Just now, sandyk said:

 

Hmmm.

Is that the first time ever,  that you have conceded that a USB Regen MAY improve USB Audio ?

What makes you so sure that it won't also offer some further improvement in a higher quality system, or after this one-off comment are you going back to quoting the rubbish spouted in another forum by  highly vocal measurement type persons (including Plissken) who believe that USB Regens are a Con Job ?

It is the only instance I know where a Regen helped unequivocally.  The same people tried measuring the Regen to find a benefit with other DACs.  I seemed to recall there was a case where it made a tiny, likely inaudible difference, and was a mixed bag.  Somethings a touch better some worse.  Mostly for all the DACs tested no one could find it did anything except sometimes  cause 60 hz harmonics to show up slightly higher.  

[esldude]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m not shrugging off the Modi measurements. I’m asking for evidence the entire brand is faulty because that was the claim. 

 

I don’t see logic in what you said either. 

 

I’m also not big on pushing DBT but I like to use objectivist reasoning when objectivists are making an argument that seems to go against their beliefs. 

I can see where you are coming from Chris.  And I think some things like the glitch were probably inaudible, and of no concern.  

 

On the other hand, when plenty of other devices don't have issues why bother with something that does.  

 

So to review off the top of my head.  We have an amp that has an odd bias adjusting circuit which would be impossible to test normally (measured or blind listening), but can cause some distortion anomalies.  We have a not inexpensive DAC with a glitch in zero crossing (supposedly now fixed, should have never been released that way).   You had your experience with Vidar amps shutting down with some speaker cables/loads.  There are more than one of their DACs that leak computer activity thru and are rather jitter sensitive about the computer activity.  That these keep coming from a company with a couple of designers doesn't instill confidence.  Maybe it isn't incompetence, but it isn't something to indicate exceptional engineering. 

[esldude]

11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Yet 1,000s of C.A. members love their Regens, including ISO Regens.

You still haven't tried using one with your DAC have you ?

Perhaps if the Meanwell SMPS used to power the Regens originally had their  0 volts rails earthed, the measurements may have been markedly better ?

Actually, I obtain a higher order of performance when powering a Regen via a 12V 15,000mAH Lin Ion battery etc.

USB hates any additional capacitance to Mains Earth via the power supply used !

It would appear a different power supply may have kept the 60 hz components from showing up.  Anything more I don't have an expectation for happening.  

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3 minutes ago, mansr said:

It certainly indicates misplaced priorities, whether or not that qualifies as incompetence. They keep banging on about things like "true multibit" with no actual relevance while making repeated slip-ups such as those you mention. Such behaviour does not inspire trust.

Yes, and whether they knew it and thought it no concern (in the Yiggy and the amp they knew) or in some cases didn't know, you only learned about the issues when third parties made it known.  So there is indeed that matter of trust.  

 

Oh and they upgraded USB inputs they were doing for months without telling anyone such was going on.  I know they didn't want every DAC to get returned all at once.  Still, maybe an ordered announcement and a program of orderly upgrades would have made customers feel better. 

[esldude]

Then there are the Schiit Multi-bit Bifrost measurements. 

 

Hmmm, not too impressive either. 

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurement-and-review-of-schiit-bifrost-multibit-dac.2319/#post-63533

 

 

[esldude]

8 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

Next to the Vivaldi 'stack', which I couldn't afford,  it's the best measuring DAC that exists. 

 

And I like it's shape ,  and that most of their business is in studio stuff and military communications, so I know they have a clue.  

Military grade hifi..........................not sure that has the right ring to it for a slogan.  

[esldude]

37 minutes ago, schiit said:

Hey guys,

 

No clue what they're measuring, since their measurements don't correlate with our own (on Stanford SR1/SR1+ and Avermetrics Averlab). Nor do they correlate with other measurements posted by another audio engineer, AtomicBob on Head-Fi and SBAF. He actually measured two Bifrost Multibits:

 

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-bifrost-mb-technical-measurements.235/

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-bifrost-mb-loaner-program-unit-technical-measurements.610/

 

Bob's conclusion was different than ASR:

 

Excellent channel matching, even in the distortion measurements
Jitter is close, though not quite as excellent, as Gungnir MB
Listening evaluation to note multibit magic of dimension and depth present
Incedible performance for a 16 bit resolution DAC

 

Also, he measured some of our other DACs:

 

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-modi-mb-technical-measurements.2603/

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-gungnir-mb-measurements.414/

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-yggdrasil-measurements.413/

 

Hopefully this helps a bit. Beyond that, DAC questions should be addressed to Mike Moffat, as I'm the analog guy.

 

All the best,

Jason

The spiky noise floor is different. Atomic Bob's low level linearity and other measures look much the same. I'm sure your response on the other forum would be welcome.

[esldude]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

snip...... 

 

Sure I can say something at -200dB doesn't matter on the face of it, but I'd need someone who actually knows what he is talking about to back me up. I don't pretend to know how something -200dB could or couldn't have an effect on something else. <- Just an example.

A few ways to parse this for yourself.  Your speaker cones would move far less than the brownian motion of air molecules at -200 db.  Our hearing threshold is just not far above this motion.  So pretty safe to say you won't hear it or hear effects of it. 

 

If you system is set up so max loudness is 120 dbSPL and that matches 0 dbFS, then at our most sensitive frequencies room noise might be as low as 10 dbSPL.  So we aren't going to hear something 90 db quieter than that.  

 

That is without talking about electronics noise levels which are very hard to get as low as -120 db.  80 db lower than that is swamped by noise.  

 

If somebody says things at -200 db matters, its on them to explain why and how.  The claim is a stupendous one that one has no reason to take at face value without something to back it up. 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, patagent said:

Not sure how Brownian motion is related to audible sound.  Brownian motions is the mechanism for diffusion and has little to do with sound.  When you speak of Brownian motion, you typically look at the random walk of a particle in a sea of other particles (e.g., dust in air).  

Our hearing is just barely above the point where impact of such moving air molecules would be heard.  Any air movement from sound that was smaller than that will effectively be lost in the noise of random molecular air movement.

 

200 dB down world be far below such a level.

[esldude]

2 hours ago, patagent said:

 

The movement of air molecules is not Brownian motion.  It causes Brownian motion.  

A distinction without a difference in this context.

 

Yes the random movement of air molecules against the eardrum is greater than the movement caused by sound at -200 dB relative to a 120 dB spl. So electronic artefact that far down will not be heard.  Our hearing threshold in some ranges is only some 15 or 20 dB above this random movement of air molecules.

[esldude]

On 2/18/2018 at 4:09 PM, jabbr said:

Haha so "best for least" => rob a high end audio shop?

Well, there were these Quad ESL63's in a police auction of recovered theft items.  No one knew what they were.  My friend purchased the pair for $150.  Worked perfectly.  Did need new grill clothes from being in property lockup.  Has to be among the best for least.  Just not a recipe one can replicate.   So maybe this is worth the bucks not to be the guy they arrested for having robbed a high end shop. 

[esldude]

On 2/18/2018 at 4:26 PM, mansr said:

That ought be a thing, just like the circle of confusion in optics.

I thought GUTB and beerandmusic represented two points of the audio version of the Bermuda Triangle.