The Best for the Least

[bigbob]

20 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The topic came up in another thread about getting the best performance for the least amount of money. A new thread was suggested. Here it is. 

 

What's the best performance for the least amount of money?

 

Right now, it is a Denon AVR-2805, which has a "Pure Direct" that runs any signal--whether it is a 24-bit/192 HDTracks or a lossy MP3 @ VBR-- through a DSP which normalizes the signal to a 24-bit form. They range in price, on the used market for $35-$99, but the shipping on this heavyweight may exceed the purchase price.

 

We are not as concerned about the choice of tubes vs. solid state, or Class D vs. Class AB in the amplification stage. Whether you choose headphones or a pair of Large Advents is not as critical as the device which turns zeros and ones into an analog signal. 

 

I am testing a Raspberry Pi computer to serve as the USB transport, using Volumio as a bit-perfect Music player, controlled by my smartphone.

 

My testing system has long since left the 'On The Cheap' barn, when I was given a pair of $8,000 Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons and a pair of the XOT crossover transducers, along with the Denon. My refurbished Yamaha RX-135 is still in service back in the bedroom, with a pair of the $50 Dayton Audio AMT bookshelf speakers, the Schiit Modi 2 and the iFi iPurifier2. It is running on a Linux laptop.

 

The main listening room system is running on a Dell Vostros 200, upgraded to a 120 Gb SSD, using Linux and Audacious 3.9 as my ALSA player.

 

2018 marks the launch of the 'Computer Audiophile on the Cheap' online marketplace, which will feature affordable complete systems--ready to plug in and play Hi-Res Audio.

 

We have a supply of refurbished receivers, ready to play 'better than new' and we are working on the RasPi computer as our choice of front-end.

 

Stay tuned.

 

From the opposite end of "High-End Audiophile", we are "Computer Audiophiles on the Cheap".

[bigbob]

7 hours ago, semente said:

 

10k is a lot of money.

What would you suggest for a 1 or 2k system?

 

How about a complete system for $500?

Used, vintage electronics can be refurbished for less than $100. A Schiit Modi Multibit is $249. Dayton Audio offers a line of Air Motion Transformer speakers from $49-upI could justify building a CAOTC system using a Modi Multibitbasis of my music server (USB Transport) and to give a Mimby a trial run. It comes in at $249--so you can see that "on the Cheap" is being challenged. per pair. Great interconnects, speaker wire, and some isolation tweaks, and you have the Computer Audiophile on the Cheap system (which uses the Raspberry Pi 3 as the USB transport and dedicated music server. $70 with necessary accessories). BAM, the best for the least.

And nobody cares what @GUTB thinks about anything that costs under $10,000. Some folks just stroke their egos by driving down the street of a Middle-class neighborhood, in a car that costs as much as a house. 'nuf said.

[bigbob]

5 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Looking at all the instrumented testing of various Schiit products from multiple people with Audio Precision and other analysis gear I have no idea how Schiit can be considered remotely competent gear. 

 

 

 

Maybe there are still some folks that cannot get past the company name, and others who simply cannot appreciate that lower price points don't mean the equipment is condemned to a purgatory of "Unlistenable".

 

A  running argument about the Schiit Yggdrasil can keep you folks busy for months. https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-yggdrasil-da-processor

 

I don't even own an ohm-meter, much less a test bench of oscilloscopes-- I have a listening room which is less than ideal and a budget which would run in the range of "poor" to "too poor to be listening to a Stereo", but I have very good ears.

 

I have five recordings of hi-res 24/192 HDTracks which are my benchmark of comparison. My scale runs from: "OK" to "Excellent" and I have never deemed anything as "un-listenable" with the exception of some free ear-buds that came with an MP3 player.

 

Schiit makes the Stereo you have sound better.

 

Let that sink in, wrap your mind around a company that extols that philosophy. Schiit can build you a "dream system" (Yggdrasil, Freya pre-amp, a pair of Vidar monoblock amps) for less than $4500 (up can add whatever speakers, cables, tweaks, or Voodoo silk bags of BBs to collect RF from your room)

 

 But to say-- "I have no idea how Schiit can be considered remotely competent gear."-- tells me a great deal about how we should consider your opinions, and may I suggest you actually listen to music, instead of poring over articles in technical manuals.

[bigbob]

22 minutes ago, semente said:

 

That surely depends on whether we're talking about good Schiit or bad Schiit.

 

 

My Schiit don't stink...

 

as a matter of fact, it's a whole lot like Beans, the Musical Fruit. The more you eat, the more you Toot.

 

I have yet to experience anything "bad" from Schiit.

[bigbob]

25 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I've no problem DBT'ing the Modi 2

 

And now we have come full circle, as circumnavigational arguments generally do. You are willing to put the Schiit Modi 2 ($99) up against what in a DBT?

 

I have conducted testing, with my home system--no instruments other than those odd things inside my outer ears--my inner ears. I prefer the sound of the Modi 2 over the closest iFi competitor-- the iDSD nano LE ($129) and my objective opinion was that the amplification stage for the headphones altered the SQ in the line (RCA) output, and no a 'good difference'

 

I said that I wished that they had not run the line output through that amp. To further my opinion--I don't want or need a portable headphone amplifier and DAC combo.

 

The long-awaited Pro IDAC  did not make it to market in the first quarter of 2017, and we are rapidly approaching the second quarter of 2018, still, crickets are chirping over at iFi Audio about a pro version of their DAC at $2,000.

 

Methinks that the Yggy has turned the tables in that $2K price bracket, and iFi has nothing in the pipeline to compare with the Schiit. The iOne uses the same Burr-Brown chipset as the nano line, but without the headphone amp--and to my ears, it sounds as good as the Schiit Modi 2, when used with the iPurifier2' active noise cancellation--for about the same price. (I have not tested the $99 Wyrd "USB-decrapifier" against the iFi 100x Active Noise Cancellation technology, but the iPurifier2 runs $109, vs. $99 for the Schiit )

[bigbob]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

Why are you guys trying to push this meme that I only approve of high end gear?

 

 

Excuse me, but @GUTB  do you actually read what you write?

 

First, I don't care what you approve of...your opinion is no better than anyone else with access to a keyboard and the Internet. 

 

Second, "high-end" means "more expensive" or "sounds better"?  I can honestly say that I auditioned a $300K system that I didn't think sounded as good as my $500 system. It lacked enough power to get sound out of the 300lb. Loudspeakers.

 

It begged for an "11" on the volume control. That friend has since upgraded his loudspeakers and says that he was chasing a sound with speakers that were not designed for his listening room.

 

I will agree, although I have not heard the new speakers. In that case, the old speakers cost $20K new, and his "new" speakers cost in the $9,000 range. It begs the question if you have $20K invested in a pair of old speakers, can $280,000 make them sound as good as a pair of $9,000 speakers? Or not?

[bigbob]

25 minutes ago, davide256 said:

@mansr , @sandyk  , @Spacehound... Is it possible for you gentlemen to  stay on topic? It's really frustrating to see your "poison pill" exchanges dampen on topic thread idea participation.

 

 

Hear here!

I have never used a USB Regen, but I have used the iFi iPurifier2. I would like to put that up against the Schiit Wyrd (which they rather unceremoniously call  "The Original USB Decrapifier")

 

That would be the Battle Royale:  Wyrd @ $99, iPurifier2 @$109, and USB Regen @$175.

 

Now since this thread is about the "Best for Less" could you fellows please take the "distance of your urination" (pissing contest) competition to another forum.

 

On the topic of Electrical Engineers. I had my EE friend nearly choke on the guacamole that he was snorting out his nose, as he belly laughed at my description of a Rick Schultz MC -0.5 (http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/conditioner/mc05/)

 

Had he heard the difference in an "A-B"? Nope, no desire to even hear a test. You see, he was an Electrical Engineer, so there was NO WAY this thing could work.

[bigbob]

19 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

 

 

Having said "Hear here!" you promptly   do exactly what davide256 is  complaining  about.

 

I guess by responding your comment, I will further your opinion that I am a part of the problem.

 

On that you would be wrong, I am commenting about three USB devices in the lower end of price range--which in this thread 'The Best for the Least' would be germane.

 

And when were you appointed the policeman for the topic?

 

You are a prolific responder, could you be part of the problem?

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, Spacehound said:

For me, yes. I was going to respond to mourip but  now I  won't.

 

good

[bigbob]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

 

Fine, I’ll suggest it. Stop the nonsense.

 

Thank you

[bigbob]

1 minute ago, Spacehound said:

I was the  first one  to agree with davide256 and said so, stating I was not going to reply to someone  I intended to.  But then   another guy came right back at me, being unable to leavr it at "Here here".

 

But yes,  it should  never got started. Certainly not in this  straightforward thread.

 

"Hear here" not "here, here"  it is an audiophile forum, after all.

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, Spacehound said:

 

 

Yes you do.

And you don't dispute with your heart surgeon or whoever.

But  because you might  have a little knowledge (a dangerous thing) you suddenly start to believe in magic, because you spent money on it.

3

 

Funny, you chose that as an example.

 

I did, in fact, get a well-respected heart surgeon to accept an 'early retirement' after he failed to diagnose a case of Rhabdomyolysis  (a condition in which damaged skeletal muscle breaks down rapidly)-- this in the morning after having this patient on an operating table for 9 hours, and ignoring the visible symptoms of paralysis and dark urine. 

 

So, heart surgeons and engineers are not the Gods with whom they would like to associate themselves with--just mere mortals who get fired for screwing up.

[bigbob]

12 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Doesn't mean Herbal remedies cure cancer. 

 

Steve McQueen, notwithstanding.

 

I am reminded of a joke which was told to me by my friend, the Electrical Engineer.  It seems apropos to inject some levity:

 

Three Engineers are sharing a drink when the topic turned to "Is God an Engineer?"

 

The Mechanical Engineer starts--"Of course God is a Mechanical Engineer, look at the body--the architecture of the foot, the lever action of the elbow..."

 

The Electrical Engineer said, "I agree, but God is an Electrical Engineer, nerves, neural pathways--all based on electrical impulses..."

 

The third man pushed back from the bar, made a loud belch, and he said, "You are both wrong, God is an Engineer alright, he is a Civil Engineer...who else would plan a playground next to a waste treatment plant?" and then he left for the john.

[bigbob]

59 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Noise is nice. Look at all those people listening to vinyl...

 

A few years back, I heard a CD which had pops and cracks recorded in their mix. Sounded nostalgic until it became irritating. Remind me why we embraced CDs...

 

[bigbob]

6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm , some really, really bad work in this regard was done with Amy Winehouse tracks - to me, these tracks are unlistenable to, the "fakeness" of the effect screams at me, and completely disrupts enjoyment of the musical flow.

 

Dang,

that is uncanny,

I was JUST listening to that ...

Amy Winehouse --Back to Black

 

But the CD I was thinking about was a hip-hop recording, very scratchy and poppy...obviously forgettable.

 

[bigbob]

8 hours ago, Spacehound said:

As I posted as a reply to someone else:

 

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert" - Arthur C Clarke

 

 

 

I have found this exchange very informative. As the Computer Audiophile on the cheap, and having zero experience testing with anything but my ears, I am open to you folks helping me to understand what this means. There was a discussion about a ground pin attached to nothing.

 

I live in a post-WWII era apartment which didn't have any earth ground in the electrical system.

 

I found a remarkable, and a quite noticeable improvement, when I took a run of speaker wire and wrapped one end around the metal water pipe under the sink, and the other end around the tab on a 3-prong adapter, in which I plugged my Chang Lightspeed Encounter--and by extension every other component plugged into it.

I also attached a run to the GRD on the back of the Denon. I was told this was a "star-ground". Okay, all I know is that is sounded better.

 

Now, on the 'Best for the Least', I have tested iFi iDSD nano LE, and own a Schiit Modi 2. I have an AQ Dragonfly (v1.2) also. I am awaiting a test unit of the Multibit version of Schiit. I read one mention of Cambridge DAC and a Behringer unit that sells for $79.

 

Please tell me more about these, as I am interested in the best value for the best price, and have deduced that the DAC is the centerpiece of a Computer Audiophile system. Thanks to you all for your input, exchanges, and opinions.

[bigbob]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

oh yeh - thx for that reminder!

 

BigB, you "have deduced that the DAC is the centerpiece of a Computer Audiophile system" but I have to wonder if a DAC, or a more expensive DAC, is always the place to add $$ for a consequent increase in SQ?

 

(for the record, I have an old DacMagic (not the + version) and am about to test it against an Oppo 205 Dac built in to their disc player)

 

Well, I am making the assumption that the DAC is the ultimate "source" of the analog signal, which the amp will amplify, and the speakers will turn into sound.

I don't think the computer or the USB cable which transports the digital file from a hard-drive will impact in a positive manner a bad signal from the DAC. I have heard a noticeable improvement when I got the Nordost Valhalla speaker ribbons--but I would not be recommending an $8,000 speaker wire upgrade as the place to start.

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

 

First of all, ditch the crappy sticks, dongles and baby boxes. They can perform well from a measurement perspective but they can’t generate a high quality analog signals, and your playback from them will always be gimped.

 

As a disabled person, with a right, below the knee amputation, I am not certain if "gimped" is a proper adjective.

What are the "crappy sticks, dongles and baby boxes" to which you refer?

[bigbob]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

Baby box: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22751415

 

No idea how it relates to audio.

 

That is not surprising as I find it difficult to understand most of @GUTB talks about except that if it's "class-D" then it must be worthless, and if the entire system isn't valued at over $10,000, then it must be "unlistenable". Everything else is just white noise, to be tuned out.

[bigbob]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

The principle with audio reproduction that counts beyond everything else is that every aspect is working "well enough" - inserting the most brilliant speakers in the world, say, will not compensate for some dodgy implementation in the amplifier, say. Reasonable quality in everything will produce outstanding sound - superb DAC and amplifier will won't sound right if the linkage between some parts is not working as well as it should - perhaps a new acronym should be coined; GWGO - Garbage Weakness, Garbage Output.

 

I could not agree more.

For me at least, small improvements in all stops along the signal path make for a good listening experience.

 

I don't understand why tiptoes under the speakers improve the sound, nor why Sorbothane pucks under the receiver can have such an impact., I don't have a clue why XOT crossover transducers remove noise, but they do.

 

Noise gets carried in with the Music, and you don't realize it was there until it is gone. But, once gone, it is obvious when you go back from "B" to "A". Then you realize that "B" is better...

[bigbob]

13 hours ago, GUTB said:

These little toy DACs suck because they don’t have the space to house quality analog sections. You need high performance amplifiers (FETs, triodes, op-amps, etc) and the power supplies to run them at a high performance level. 

 

And when a manufacturer can build a DAC, at a reasonable price, that doesn't "suck", we will be happy to embrace it, test it and have and voice an opinion. @GUTB seems to have an Audiophilia affectation related to the instinct of a newborn to suckle from its mother's breast.

Except in the case of a baby born to Royalty, who gets the milk without having to suck.

 

[bigbob]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

Back to topic...let's not limit this just to DACS either. 

I would love to hear what others think are the best speakers less than $3K (new or used).

 

I like PSB Imagine T2 (used $1800)

B&W 705 (used $900)

FOCAL BE (anything)

ATC (anything)

 

anyone proud of their speakers that think they meet the "best for least"?

 

 

 

 

Advent Large Loudspeakers purchased new 1975 for $112/pair.

New foam rings in 1990 for less than $50...but maybe the Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons and the XOT (NOT Carbon) Crossover transducers are to claim all the credit. I know Henry Kloss is rocking in his grave that his 1970's invention is still garnering such acclaim that a refurbished pair will still get almost twice the new price...used.

[bigbob]

3 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Don't forget stacked Advents. 

 

The Harry Pearson Stacked Advents:

"

10. Advent

Not very long ago, a long-time audio buddy gave me a chance to hear his Double Advent setup (and in his garage!). The experience in a sense, just about took my breath away: The speakers, even in that primitive setting, were magnificent! They remained as uncolored and neutral as ever, exceeding too many of today’s so-called “super” systems. I had, if the truth be told, forgotten (audibly) just how very special this doubling up [stacking a pair atop another pair] of Henry Kloss’ last great speaker was and remains. Wished I had had the sense to hold on to the pair I bought (back when, actually in 1972, just before I started Issue One of this rag). The Advents weren’t then entirely trouble-free thanks to mechanical problems with the original tweeters. Seen in today’s light, aside from an airy top end, the only thing missing was its ability to recreate a wide and dimensional soundstage. If you can grab a pair in good condition, and they are out there, be smarter than me. Harry Pearson

[bigbob]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Vintage speakers are pretty bad by today’s standards. How do you bring them up to modern performance? Can you?

 

I doubt if anyone could make you happy with anything....

Therefore I am assuming you just want another opportunity to roll out your usual big sack of crap.

Ancient Chinese Proverb: "It takes to two to tango, and it is only fishing if a fish grabs at the bait."

Next....

[bigbob]

2 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Stacked advents pre-dated the first issue of The Absolute Sound. 

 

" Wished I had had the sense to hold on to the pair I bought (back when, actually in 1972, just before I started Issue One of this rag)."

 

I am sure that Harry Pearson was well aware of that, hence his quotation.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/171advent/index.html

J. Gordon Holt  |  Jan 1, 1971