esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 http://www.bm.rs/Kimber/Kiber - ISO Mike System - Audiophile Voice.pdf Bonus info. Here is an article about the Kimber Isomike written by CA's own George Graves. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, esldude said: Okay, I took the 88/24 wav file from the Sonore conversion. Opened it in Audacity, exported it as a 44/16 level 5 Flac. The result was slightly larger than compressing your 44 wav file at 7 meg (your file compressed to 6 meg). Still a smaller size than is the norm. I think mansr is correct, it simply is a file that compresses well due to no high frequencies and low noise levels in the recording. BTW, if you use the Sonore converter. It has an option to adjust the output level. Default is +4 db. I find this to come close to matching PCM files of the same material. This was 4db higher in level than your conversion there at 44 khz. It cannot be purely a compression issue, as I've explained many times when converting from MP3 to WAV to FLAC. The FLAC codec is behaving totally out of character, and only with JRiver's file. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, dalethorn said: It cannot be purely a compression issue, as I've explained many times when converting from MP3 to WAV to FLAC. The FLAC codec is behaving totally out of character, and only with JRiver's file. So how do you think I obtained a nearly identical result using all different software? And kumakuma has also gotten a near identical result with yet another software. When I compressed to FLAC as a 24 bit file it was only 50% compression. In any case I'll try Ogg Vorbis and let you know. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 This is interesting. Beginning with the 88/24 wav I converted to 44 with Ogg Vorbis set on a quality level of 5 out of 10. The file size was only 2.5 meg. While I know ogg is more like MP3 that is a lot of compression. High rate VBR MP3 was 4.4 meg. I think it is simply a compression issue. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, esldude said: So how do you think I obtained a nearly identical result using all different software? And kumakuma has also gotten a near identical result with yet another software. The FLAC codec is free and unrestricted, i.e. reliable. That is why I converted the MP3 to WAV to FLAC to demonstrate (as I have thousands of times before) that the JRiver WAV is doing something that nothing has ever done before. I didn't want to get into this DSD stuff because I've been suspicious of hidden DRM, or in the case of this 16/44 WAV file, possible "effective" DRM by stripping out the high-res data. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, esldude said: This is interesting. Beginning with the 88/24 wav I converted to 44 with Ogg Vorbis set on a quality level of 5 out of 10. The file size was only 2.5 meg. While I know ogg is more like MP3 that is a lot of compression. High rate VBR MP3 was 4.4 meg. I think it is simply a compression issue. If it were a compression issue, it cannot be a simple compression issue, as my MP3 to WAV to FLAC example clearly illustrates. Something funky is going on, and FLAC doesn't lie. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, dalethorn said: It cannot be purely a compression issue, as I've explained many times when converting from MP3 to WAV to FLAC. The FLAC codec is behaving totally out of character, and only with JRiver's file. I don't see any issue, compression or otherwise. As I said, converting from DSD with Sox gives the same result. The mp3 comparison is irrelevant. Decoding mp3 produces lots of artefacts that although not present in the original must be preserved by the FLAC encoder. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, dalethorn said: I didn't want to get into this DSD stuff because I've been suspicious of hidden DRM, or in the case of this 16/44 WAV file, possible "effective" DRM by stripping out the high-res data. Nothing of the sort is going on. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 4 minutes ago, mansr said: I don't see any issue, compression or otherwise. As I said, converting from DSD with Sox gives the same result. The mp3 comparison is irrelevant. Decoding mp3 produces lots of artefacts that although not present in the original must be preserved by the FLAC encoder. It is absolutely NOT irrelevant. I have a hundred CDs of solo piano music, and NOT one track from those CDs ever compressed to less than 50-60 percent with the FLAC converter. Now please, let's focus on why the FLAC converter is doing something it has never done. And you can try CD rips yourself. In my world, there's only one explanation, and that is an unknown about that 16/44 WAV file. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, esldude said: This is interesting. Beginning with the 88/24 wav I converted to 44 with Ogg Vorbis set on a quality level of 5 out of 10. The file size was only 2.5 meg. While I know ogg is more like MP3 that is a lot of compression. High rate VBR MP3 was 4.4 meg. I think it is simply a compression issue. It's a solo piano piece. Of course it compresses well. Piano music is as simple as it gets. That said, I'm a bit surprised at just how well it compresses. Still nothing to be concerned over though. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, mansr said: Nothing of the sort is going on. Says who? In the face of the history of music companies struggles to protect their music. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, mansr said: It's a solo piano piece. Of course it compresses well. Piano music is as simple as it gets. That said, I'm a bit surprised at just how well it compresses. Still nothing to be concerned over though. And the fact that NO piano CD ripped and converted ever behaves like this? That's not a logical claim. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, mansr said: It's a solo piano piece. Of course it compresses well. Piano music is as simple as it gets. That said, I'm a bit surprised at just how well it compresses. Still nothing to be concerned over though. BTW, name one CD of solo piano music that will compress to 20+ percent of WAV size to FLAC. I will buy it now and test it immediately when it arrives. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, dalethorn said: Says who? I do. 1 minute ago, dalethorn said: In the face of the history of music companies struggles to protect their music. NativeDSD are honest. They wouldn't try anything sneaky. Besides, the DSF format doesn't permit it, even if they wanted to. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, dalethorn said: BTW, name one CD of solo piano music that will compress to 20+ percent of WAV size to FLAC. I will buy it now and test it immediately when it arrives. I'll check my collection tomorrow. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, mansr said: I do. NativeDSD are honest. They wouldn't try anything sneaky. Besides, the DSF format doesn't permit it, even if they wanted to. If you read my piece, it wasn't pointing to NativeDSD, it pointed to the JRiver conversion. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Okay, I took a download DSD128 file from 2L. Converted to 176/24 flac. Opened that and converted to 44/16 wav which was 34 meg. I took that and saved to FLAC which was 15 meg which is 44%. I then put a steep roll off at 5 khz on the 44 wav. Saved as a FLAC which then dropped to 9.5 meg. 28% which isn't so far from the 24 -25% on your file. This recording had an orchestra in it not just a single piano. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, mansr said: I'll check my collection tomorrow. Thank you, but remember, this is only to rip the CD to WAV and then convert the WAVs to FLAC. Link to comment
mansr Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, dalethorn said: If you read my piece, it wasn't pointing to NativeDSD, it pointed to the JRiver conversion. I got the same result converting your DSD file with Sox. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, esldude said: Okay, I took a download DSD128 file from 2L. Converted to 176/24 flac. Opened that and converted to 44/16 wav which was 34 meg. I took that and saved to FLAC which was 15 meg which is 44%. I then put a steep roll off at 5 khz on the 44 wav. Saved as a FLAC which then dropped to 9.5 meg. 28% which isn't so far from the 24 -25% on your file. This recording had an orchestra in it not just a single piano. Once again, FLAC conversions from WAV files (CD rips) never compress to 20-plus percent. Never. Something funky is happening with the conversions from DSD - the 16/44 WAV files for example, are not similar to CD rips. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, mansr said: I got the same result converting your DSD file with Sox. That was never the issue. The issue is, why do CD rips convert to FLAC reliably, at 50 percent or above, yet JRiver's 16/44 WAVs do not. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I just did a Glenn Gould recording from a CD. Compressed from 16.3 meg to 6.0 meg. 36% which is lower than I usually see. This recording also drops off about 5 khz. It is sourced from old reel tapes however and there is low level noise not in the recording you used. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, esldude said: I just did a Glenn Gould recording from a CD. Compressed from 16.3 meg to 6.0 meg. 36% which is lower than I usually see. This recording also drops off about 5 khz. It is sourced from old reel tapes however and there is low level noise not in the recording you used. Of course I can't verify that, and neither can anyone else. Please name a CD that I can buy. Link to comment
esldude Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Okay I just put a rolloff above 5 khz on the Glenn Gould recording to drop out the tape noise. Wav to FLAC 4.6 meg from a 16.3 original wav file. 26% for that. I think you have a clean digital recording with nothing above 5 khz and that is the answer. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
dalethorn Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 Just now, esldude said: Okay I just put a rolloff above 5 khz on the Glenn Gould recording to drop out the tape noise. Wav to FLAC 4.6 meg from a 16.3 original wav file. 26% for that. I think you have a clean digital recording with nothing above 5 khz and that is the answer. No it is not the answer. The answer is when you have something that can be verified by everyone. A CD that I can buy and test myself. Link to comment
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