Barriers to Hi-Fi

[Shadders]

54 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

$300 active monitors sitting on your computer desk will not result in a high quality stereo sound experience. Your valuations in sound quality are extremely suspect, BUT in order to remove my ego from the equation I decided to try out these well-regarded-and-cheap components (Crown amp is coming in from Amazon today). My biases and expectations may be wrong. But I understand that as a man it’s hard to get around one’s ego — maybe my experiment will help other men get around their own and move in the direction of better sound.

Hi,

It is not ego that needs to be removed, it is intelligence that needs to be added.

 

A $300 set of speakers can sound extremely good next to your computer- on the desk.

 

Likewise, it is intelligence that allows you to realise that cheap equipment that is very good value, sounds just as good as high end. All high end is, is the cheaper equipment electronics in a fancy case, which is then sold, very over priced.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

4 minutes ago, Norton said:

 

I'd say that was optimism rather than intelligence.

Hi,

Have a look at Hifi News - they have photographs of high end equipment - no difference to standard hifi.

 

There is no magic in circuit design. No special club of high end designers - where their topology or theory belongs to the magic circle only.

 

High end is just over priced bog standard circuits - in a very nice case, a smattering of keywords/phrases such as :

 

highly optimised linear circuit, precision resistors, matched transistors, wideband gain, peak current capability, local feedback, large damping factor, high slew rate, high input conductance, balanced topology, or a.n. other special sounding phrase.

 

All these types of phrases (and so many more) are used to lead one to believe that the price tag is warranted, that you will hear something special.

 

Why not get a book from the library and see how amplifiers are designed, or purchase an electronics magazine. Many projects on amplifiers throughout the decades. I am not saying it is easy, but there is no magic as the high end manufacturers will have you believe.

 

But then, this hobby has many people believe that cables have a characteristic sound, or cable lifters will make a difference, or leaving the amplifier on all the time will make it sound better, or a green felt tip pen on the edge of the CD will make a difference, or an optical cable will make a difference, or special fuses will sound better than other fuses, or special supports (bean bags with sand in them) will make your equipment sound better.

 

The list is endless. So is the gullibility of many people.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

18 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

That said, I do agree that there is unhelpful absolutism on both sides. For example, the notion that high-end audio is just the same basic components inside more expensive boxes is IMHO silly. And yet I do think it's true that a good deal of high-end audio is as expensive as it is for economic/scale reasons, not just quality of design or quality of components reasons. And certain very high-dollar products (like super high-end digital cables) almost certainly have far higher profit margins than commodity cables, meaning that even if the components are higher quality and/or the final produce is more rigorously QA tested, there's still extra profit built in via the high price.

 

Hi,

Think this through. A cheaper amplifier will sell much more units than a high end unit. So, the design has to be more rigorously tested etc., else the scale of returns due to issues will be much higher and will cost more.

 

High end uses same components as the lower costing equipment.

 

Also, can you tell me what special resistors are ?. Why they cost more and what their special properties are ? Here is a secret - there are no special resistors. Same for transistors - no special doping of transistors for high end amplifiers.

 

Check out Farnell, Digikey, Mouser - and then examine component costs for small numbers, and how many are actually used in an amplifier.

 

Check the internet - there are circuit diagrams of 20 to 30 year old Krells - they have the same basic circuit topology as cheaper units. Nothing special.

 

You are charged a higher price, nice fancy case - you think you are getting something special.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

23 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

No Sir. Investigate their properties. Start with the obvious accuracy and next learn about more. Capacitors no difference but more obvious.

Farnell, Digikey, Mouser ? ... if that is where you looking I understand where you come from.

 

PS: I purchase 95% from there. But that is not the specialty stuff. You buy that directly from the manufacturer. And 5% is crucial. And FYI that manufacturer can even be Crystek (well known to said resellers but not for niche products). Pardon me saying it, but you could be "rusted" in old school stuff. Audio is being ahead of things. And no way this is about Digikey  etc. It is cheaper alright for logical reasons, but that is en entirely different matter.

Hi,

I am not saying that there are no differences between resistor types such as thin film, or thick film.

 

If you believe you can hear differences between components, then good for you.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

What made the Krells "special" were the mammoth power supplies - and this costs money, big money; the case has to be solid enough to contain all this.

 

Yes, circuit topology is almost nothing ... and implementation is almost everything. Getting the latter right may not interest the "big companies" - and will likely mean the finished unit will cost significantly more to make - so, the chances of it happening are ... ummm ...

Hi,

I have had a bespoke 1kVA transformer made, for a run of 6, each costing less than £75. The higher cost are for the reservoir capacitors, and in general, will be less than £200 per mono amplifier.

 

When you see some amplifiers costing £15k upwards, then i realise that you are not really paying for the components or special design.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

11 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

One has to take into account the manufacturing cost to retail price ratio, which for small scale operations, no economies of scale whatsoever, can be 1:15 - one figure I came across. It doesn't take long for this factor to push the number the consumer pays way, way up there ...

Hi,

The 1:15 - what amplifier or manufacturer was this ?.

I can build 2 monoblocks with 280watts (RMS) continuous output power, for less than £1.8k - these will have 8 pairs of output devices per channel etc. Scale this up to 10 amplifiers (5 pairs) then this cost will drop quite a bit.

It is just probably, stack them high, sell them cheap rule - they took a decision, to set the price of sale very high, which makes it high end, and incurs less sales.

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

40 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

 

Well, manufacturers that have posted here like Alex and the late Charles Hansen both have talked about how you can buy "the same" component in varying levels of quality. Cheaper ones that aren't as well made that don't last as long and don't have the same consistent level of performance, and more expensive ones that do perform to tight tolerances and last longer. 

There are also new designs on the market. Not everything is retread. 

Hi,

Whatever the component, they are cheap. A 1% resistor is slightly more than the cost of a 5% resistor. Transistors - are just as cheap. An MPSA42/MPSA92 is 24.4p (MPSA92 is 10p cheaper) if you buy five. Assume that 30 are used in stereo amplifier, then this is for the 25+ break point, a total cost of £7.02. You now have your input stage and 50% of the voltage amplification stage completed. Assume 0.1% resistors - assume 50 of these are used for the same part of the amplifier (i/p + VAS), then assume 20p each (some are cheaper, some are more), then we have £10 total.

 

So, for the input stage and voltage amplification stage (50% of), a total of £17.02 will give you a good proportion of the amplifier active and passive components for an amplifier that costs £15k+. Let us quadruple this to include capacitors, and we therefore have £68.08. The cost will increase for the output stage, and power supply, but now you see just how cheap components are.

 

I selected thin film resistors and usually, 1% accuracy is used, as opposed to 0.1%. You can play with the transistor types - lower noise, or matched - but still it is cheap.

 

Maybe, high cost equipment costs what it does because people want to make lots of money, and there is of course, the percentage for the Hifi dealer who may be running a very expensive boutique in a posh part of town.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

Deleted

[Shadders]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

A completely general statement made by someone, who was reacting to another complaining about the high cost of these specialised goods, . If you want to make these sort of items as a hobby, and essentially give them away, out of the goodness of your heart, that's fine - but if you're attemping to do it as a way of creating a meaningful income, well ...

Hi,

I may well go into business, and sell high end hifi. With each purchaser receiving a free mug.

My approach would be make a reasonable profit, and not fleece the gullible. It is possible to earn a living without charging exorbitant amounts of money.

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

My guess is it will be difficult.  Bad business drives out good maybe.  There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products.  As long as the clients are willing to partake of the snake oil a more honest dealer has a problem.  

Hi,

I have just seen an amplifier mentioned on another site - blast from the past - i recall that the schematics were available at hifi shows.

The amps have been developed, and sell for $3,000 for a simple 50watt stereo power amplifier, or $7,000 for a 175watt monoblock. Are they worth it ?. Who knows - but the cases are small and old fashoined, the measurements ok i suppose, but there certainly is not the electronics inside them to cost 1/10 of the retail cost.

It takes all sorts  - but you seem to be inferring that you can only make similar profit to high end if you over price the product : "There is no way you can make similar profit to some snake oil products"

 

As i said - i am only interested in making sufficient money, not exorbitant profits. (my first line was a joke - the free mug should have given it away - or if you are US based maybe calling someone a mug is not a term you are familiar with)

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

What I am saying is if you make a reasonable profit, and another business makes 500% the profit for the volume of business in time the prosperity of the other business model is likely to drive the former out of the market.   You might find a niche and manage it.  It will be difficult.  

Hi,

I am not sure that will happen. If the products are distinct, and are in different price ranges - then the cheaper may be sell more. The high end product has a bigger profit margin, but sells less unts due to high cost and hence the smller number of people to sell to.

I do not think the high end will drive out the lower cost units, if no one has the funds for the higher end.

Regards,

Shadders.

[Shadders]

1 minute ago, Norton said:

 

I'm not  refuting your point entirely, but I do think you are confusing making something as a hobbyist with running a business.

 

As I understand it, a fairly normal manufacturing model would be to price something at 10x the parts cost, then of course there's VAT to consider.  So if the parts cost of your monoblocs was £1800, a retail price north of £20k would be unexceptional.

 

But there are clearly other models perhaps closer to what you suggest  - the NVA range for example seem exceptionally well priced for something (I presume)  built by the designer  in the UK.

Hi,

Yes - low volume production is possibly much cheaper than a business that has to scale with cost of premises etc. If you run a business from home - then the costs are reduced considerably.

Regards,

Shadders.