Best next upgrade up from microRendu? Go for Ultra or SOtM or a Server or something else?

[beerandmusic]

20 minutes ago, One and a half said:

The Zenith have hdd that are too small for an ever expanding library, unless everything was converted to MP3. Also not sure if Roon server can be installed either.

D2 uses noisiest Ethernet , unless there’s heavy filtering, lps for a start.

 

the zenith is out of my budget...D2 is only i could afford for myself...not sure what you mean by "noisiest enet"? are their diagrams showing the noise of differnt streamers that you compared it to?

 

The zenith having hdd is a plus?  many streamers don't have hd at all, and wish to keep their hd on nas or other?

Are you promoting the Lumin U1 over the Zenith?

[KingRex]

If your still unsure call Mojo Audio.  Playing files from the internal drive far surpass my $8K analog setup in most every way.  Streaming from a NAS is not as good, but I am told adding a JCAT ethernet card brings it much closer.  I did not include that option with my purchase.   However all streaming from a NAS sounds like cleaning the power to the NAS and switch is necessary to get it anywhere close to what is possible with internal storage. I find albums I like, then export them to the internal drive.  It take about 10 seconds an album.   

 

Mojo has excellent customer service.  I have always had a person answer the phone and been very very happy with the stability and performance of his devices.  It has never not run as expected.  They are not just a computer in a box.  They are built around an incredible external power supply.  The design of his cases are exceptional.   They shield emi, rfi and other noise as well as damp mechanical vibration and noise.  His unit got Best Sound No Cost Object at Rocky Mountain and Axpona this last year from TAS.  I am confident my unit with Server 2016 would give the Sound Galleries Music Server a run for its money, if not best it.  

 

I am just a very happy customer.   

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

 

the zenith is out of my budget...D2 is only i could afford for myself...not sure what you mean by "noisiest enet"? are their diagrams showing the noise of differnt streamers that you compared it to?

 

The zenith having hdd is a plus?  many streamers don't have hd at all, and wish to keep their hd on nas or other?

Are you promoting the Lumin U1 over the Zenith?

Please refer to this post about RF emissions from IT equipment.

 

 

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

Please refer to this post about RF emissions from IT equipment.

 

 

I have browsed through the 200 pages a few times, if there is something in particular you wanted to quote?

[beerandmusic]

6 hours ago, KingRex said:

If your still unsure call Mojo Audio.  Playing files from the internal drive far surpass my $8K analog setup in most every way.  Streaming from a NAS is not as good,

 

Wow...this is first time i have heard that internal storage sounds better than enet.

I am sure it is dependent with the rest of the design.  What exact manufacturer/model are you talking about playing internal storage from??

 

Have you tried Rendu Ultra or SOTM Ultra to compare to your internal storage solution?

[One and a half]

59 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I have browsed through the 200 pages a few times, if there is something in particular you wanted to quote?

Navigation lesson: Move the mouse over my name, where it says "One and a Half replied to topic", and it takes you straight to the post that's quoted.

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, KingRex said:

If your still unsure call Mojo Audio.  Playing files from the internal drive far surpass my $8K analog setup in most every way.  Streaming from a NAS is not as good, but I am told adding a JCAT ethernet card brings it much closer.  I did not include that option with my purchase.   However all streaming from a NAS sounds like cleaning the power to the NAS and switch is necessary to get it anywhere close to what is possible with internal storage. I find albums I like, then export them to the internal drive.  It take about 10 seconds an album.   

 

Mojo has excellent customer service.  I have always had a person answer the phone and been very very happy with the stability and performance of his devices.  It has never not run as expected.  They are not just a computer in a box.  They are built around an incredible external power supply.  The design of his cases are exceptional.   They shield emi, rfi and other noise as well as damp mechanical vibration and noise.  His unit got Best Sound No Cost Object at Rocky Mountain and Axpona this last year from TAS.  I am confident my unit with Server 2016 would give the Sound Galleries Music Server a run for its money, if not best it.  

 

I am just a very happy customer.   

I haven't seen any proof to suggest that playing from a NAS needs, "cleaning the power to the NAS and switch is necessary..." I have seen proof that having internal storage adds noise to the unit even with filters in place. Also, your unit would be connected to the network so if there is noise there it's mute point in a comparison. If you worry (I don't) about network noise John S. has proposed a simple inexpensive DIY trick to deal with it. I'm not against internal storage playback and we use to make these a long time ago, but I decided to move things in a different direction and have not looked back.   

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

Navigation lesson: Move the mouse over my name, where it says "One and a Half replied to topic", and it takes you straight to the post that's quoted.

you are going to have to elaborate what you are saying.  I see the link about IT equipment, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

[fsmithjack]

Guys - I am very close to pulling the trigger on the Innous but back of my head I am thinking this. It is more money and more boxes and cables (which bothers some but not me because I am all about the sound) but I don't have time or skill to make my own. Can you guys tell me - please help me if I chose this route if:

 

- You think it will sound better 

- what I should do different ( add a certain NAS or cable or something else, I am just patching this together from you.

 

Verse the Innous I am thinkingL

 

SOtM 200ultra with clock option upgrade option - Uptone LPS-1 - Ghent Cables 

SOtM txUSB ultra with clock option upgrade - Uptone LPS-1

mutec ref 10 - (what cables do I use here - 50ohm or 75ohm and no idea what cable to use and do I need a special power supply for this.

NUC I7 so I can run my beloved JRiver and powered by Uptone JS-2

I will get the Uptone switch when availavle

 

Will this SOtM flat out beat the Innuous - it is way more money - prob close to double more but if it will flat out perform Innous then I am considering it.

 

I have the absolutely outstanding - not sure if anyone has used or heard one Terrarium Q Black Diamond USB Cable so nice to be able to use it if not i will sell it - I went on a search a few years ago when usb cables were all the rage and it beat out everything - everything and by a lot.

 

So will this be way better - if so what else do i need - NAS - Ethernet cable - new power supply for NAS - somthing other than NUC? I can't make my own. Love you help.

 

If Innous is 97% sound of this then I will just get that but if this is a flat out superior sounding system then I want to consider. If you know anther member that knows more about this will you copy and past and shoot this too them. I work 70 hours and have a little one on the way so time is tough but I am all about best sound. I am getting excited!!! 

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, fsmithjack said:

Guys - I am very close to pulling the trigger on the Innous but back of my head I am thinking this. It is more money and more boxes and cables (which bothers some but not me because I am all about the sound) but I don't have time or skill to make my own. Can you guys tell me - please help me if I chose this route if:

 

- You think it will sound better 

- what I should do different ( add a certain NAS or cable or something else, I am just patching this together from you.

 

Verse the Innous I am thinkingL

 

SOtM 200ultra with clock option upgrade option - Uptone LPS-1 - Ghent Cables 

SOtM txUSB ultra with clock option upgrade - Uptone LPS-1

mutec ref 10 - (what cables do I use here - 50ohm or 75ohm and no idea what cable to use and do I need a special power supply for this.

NUC I7 so I can run my beloved JRiver and powered by Uptone JS-2

I will get the Uptone switch when availavle

 

Will this SOtM flat out beat the Innuous - it is way more money - prob close to double more but if it will flat out perform Innous then I am considering it.

 

I have the absolutely outstanding - not sure if anyone has used or heard one Terrarium Q Black Diamond USB Cable so nice to be able to use it if not i will sell it - I went on a search a few years ago when usb cables were all the rage and it beat out everything - everything and by a lot.

 

So will this be way better - if so what else do i need - NAS - Ethernet cable - new power supply for NAS - somthing other than NUC? I can't make my own. Love you help.

 

If Innous is 97% sound of this then I will just get that but if this is a flat out superior sounding system then I want to consider. If you know anther member that knows more about this will you copy and past and shoot this too them. I work 70 hours and have a little one on the way so time is tough but I am all about best sound. I am getting excited!!! 

 

I was first one to suggest the Zenith to you.

I also suggested you contact AUstin pop directly.

He is well respected here, and has extensive experience with SOTM and has also checked out the Rendu products with a few other people.  He switched from SOTM to the Zenith. 

Check with him directly about pros and cons of each and which he ultimately liked better and any other advice.

He won't steer you wrong.

[Confused]

30 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I was first one to suggest the Zenith to you.

I also suggested you contact AUstin pop directly.

He is well respected here, and has extensive experience with SOTM and has also checked out the Rendu products with a few other people.  He switched from SOTM to the Zenith. 

Check with him directly about pros and cons of each and which he ultimately liked better and any other advice.

He won't steer you wrong.

I think @austinpopwas planning a comparison of the Innuos with his SOtM kit, but this was put on hold due to an issue with his tX-USBultra.  So it is a bit early to say he has switched from SOtM to Innuos I think.

[KingRex]

 

 

In reading through this site I find  2 main camps of people  both pitching their spin.  The SOTM /Sonosre group and the purpose built computer group. Each has their technical guru wowing everyone with their deep knowlede of why their camp is  best.  These people sound very educated and make solid points.  Both groups have valid arguments.  

I have not heard a Rendu, but know and trust people who have compared the two designs.  They prefer internal storage. 

 

Some depends on what you want to do. Are you a Redbook PCM or DSD upsample person.  Upsampling makes a lot of noise.  Mojo highly recommends 

 PCM without upsampling.  

 

 

 

Ben wants to sell equipment so he has a bias, just like every other designer.  I would still go to his site and give him a call.  He can tell you more about what he does. 

[firedog]

55 minutes ago, KingRex said:

 

 

In reading through this site I find  2 main camps of people  both pitching their spin.  The SOTM /Sonosre group and the purpose built computer group. Each has their technical guru wowing everyone with their deep knowlede of why their camp is  best.  These people sound very educated and make solid points.  Both groups have valid arguments.  

I have not heard a Rendu, but know and trust people who have compared the two designs.  They prefer internal storage. 

 

Some depends on what you want to do. Are you a Redbook PCM or DSD upsample person.  Upsampling makes a lot of noise.  Mojo highly recommends 

 PCM without upsampling.  

 

 

 

Ben wants to sell equipment so he has a bias, just like every other designer.  I would still go to his site and give him a call.  He can tell you more about what he does. 

I'd only recommend that if you go with something with internal storage, check if the storage is user upgradeable. If not, it could be very inconvenient/expensive in case of failure or upgrade.

 

BTW, I'm sure either method can be manufactured with good SQ results. 

[beerandmusic]

10 hours ago, KingRex said:

I have not heard a Rendu, but know and trust people who have compared the two designs.  They prefer internal storage.

 

Please elaborate on this.

What specifically were they comparing and did they publish their comparisons on any forum?

I have a tendency to believe that higher SQ may be attainable by not using an enet->usb device, but haven't heard of anyone who has compared, so i am very interested.

[KingRex]

14 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I haven't seen any proof to suggest that playing from a NAS needs, "cleaning the power to the NAS and switch is necessary..." I have seen proof that having internal storage adds noise to the unit even with filters in place. Also, your unit would be connected to the network so if there is noise there it's mute point in a comparison. If you worry (I don't) about network noise John S. has proposed a simple inexpensive DIY trick to deal with it. I'm not against internal storage playback and we use to make these a long time ago, but I decided to move things in a different direction and have not looked back.   

So I am not immune to miss reading or jumping to conclusions.  I gather you are saying a NAS and switch with SMPS dont send a signal with any power distortion causing jitter over ethernet.   Or, the Nuc/SOTM/Sonore receiving the signal are immune to the these affects.  Is that correct?

[vortecjr]

55 minutes ago, KingRex said:

So I am not immune to miss reading or jumping to conclusions.  I gather you are saying a NAS and switch with SMPS dont send a signal with any power distortion causing jitter over ethernet.   Or, the Nuc/SOTM/Sonore receiving the signal are immune to the these affects.  Is that correct?

What I was referring to is that adding internal storage adds noise to the unit if you are also going to use it for local playback. Streaming over the network adds galvanic isolation. John has found some obscure noise that galvanic isolation does not block and his grounding trick resolves this, but anything’s that connects to the network is subject to it so it’s a mute point. 

[One and a half]

23 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

you are going to have to elaborate what you are saying.  I see the link about IT equipment, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

I didn't see this... how about another 6 pack to see the post clearer, you did click on the link to the article?

[LTG2010]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:48 PM, fsmithjack said:

So will this be way better - if so what else do i need - NAS - Ethernet cable - new power supply for NAS - somthing other than NUC? I can't make my own. Love you help.

From your 'jriver playback list', I would steer you away from the NUC i7 as a server. It's a high powered system with a fancy processor with features not needed in audio playback and generate 'noise' that will be transfered further up the chain.

Instead look at Supermicro's E200-8B server, configure it exactly as you want it with all the storage you need and set it up for jriver. This server uses the same motherboard as the zenith, (look at the rear its identical). It uses very low power, about 1/3 of the NUC - less noise generation and a celeron j1900 quad core proccessor @ 2Ghz still up for any task you throw at it., A simpler processor structure much better for audio. Get 8GB ram and configure jriver to playback from ram ( if it doesnt do that automatically - been a few years since I used it). This is the same arrangement as the Zenith. It has a DC jack input on the rear so you can use your JS2 to power it. It will only use about 2 amps so you'll have the second rail free from your JS2 to power another device. With this as your server you'll get the best of both worlds.

Further improvements- get an EMI reduction sheet eg 3M or Wurth electric or better the one from SOTM and fix it on the underside the servers top panel. Ask the supplier if they can fit a SATA power to Female DC jack adapter ( this is also a simple DIY task) and you can power your hard disc/s directly with your LPS1/s.

If you're going for the SMS200Ultra or Ultrarendu power them with the second output of the JS2 and not the LPS1.

https://www.thinkmate.com/system/superserver-e200-8b

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

I didn't see this... how about another 6 pack to see the post clearer, you did click on the link to the article?

this is what i see whe i click the link, and i have no idea what point you are trying to make?

[KingRex]

23 hours ago, firedog said:

I'd only recommend that if you go with something with internal storage, check if the storage is user upgradeable. If not, it could be very inconvenient/expensive in case of failure or upgrade.

 

BTW, I'm sure either method can be manufactured with good SQ results. 

I think you are right about either can produce good SQ.  My setup floors me how good is sounds now.  I'm sure the SOTM/ Sonore crowd feels the same.  I would love to here a Signature Rendu SE.  I live in Seattle.  If anyone is in the Seattle Portland area, lets have a listening night.  I like to entertain and listen to music.  I can bring my server.  Its easy to transport.  I love to host at my house.  I have all cat 6 wiring.  Bring your Endpoint.  Let me know and we can private chat a meeting time.

[Superdad]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:06 PM, One and a half said:

In researching methods to make Ethernet quieter, the amount of effort to clamp the noise emitted from IT devices like routers. switches and cables is just as fraught with drama as is USB,  just ask any ham radio operator. Fixes include linear power supplies to the switches (which at CA we know of) and routers, ferrite cores on Ethernet cables and in some cases shielded Ethernet cabling. The problem of STP Ethernet, is rampant conduction of noise to an unwilling host.

 

Ethernet is good for IT, for audio? Even if the Ethernet cable is unplugged, it still plays from a buffer, together with the noise from the system intact. 

 

I'm out of Ethernet for audio.

 

Hang in there Gary.  Maybe later this year we will have something to solve all your above issues! 

[ismewor]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:06 PM, One and a half said:

In researching methods to make Ethernet quieter, the amount of effort to clamp the noise emitted from IT devices like routers. switches and cables is just as fraught with drama as is USB,  just ask any ham radio operator. Fixes include linear power supplies to the switches (which at CA we know of) and routers, ferrite cores on Ethernet cables and in some cases shielded Ethernet cabling. The problem of STP Ethernet, is rampant conduction of noise to an unwilling host.

 

Ethernet is good for IT, for audio? Even if the Ethernet cable is unplugged, it still plays from a buffer, together with the noise from the system intact. 

 

I'm out of Ethernet for audio.

Not too soon just yet. 

Have you try the OCXO or TCXO switch from TLS. http://thelinearsolution.com/ocxo_switch.html

Give them a shout, I have awesome result with their stuff so far.

[BigAlMc]

1 hour ago, ismewor said:

Not too soon just yet. 

Have you try the OCXO or TCXO switch from TLS. http://thelinearsolution.com/ocxo_switch.html

Give them a shout, I have awesome result with their stuff so far.

 

An OXCO Router!

 

No sign of prices on any of the kit though. Any ideas what the switches are going for?

[One and a half]

6 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

From your 'jriver playback list', I would steer you away from the NUC i7 as a server. It's a high powered system with a fancy processor with features not needed in audio playback and generate 'noise' that will be transfered further up the chain.

Instead look at Supermicro's E200-8B server, configure it exactly as you want it with all the storage you need and set it up for jriver. This server uses the same motherboard as the zenith, (look at the rear its identical). It uses very low power, about 1/3 of the NUC - less noise generation and a celeron j1900 quad core proccessor @ 2Ghz still up for any task you throw at it., A simpler processor structure much better for audio. Get 8GB ram and configure jriver to playback from ram ( if it doesnt do that automatically - been a few years since I used it). This is the same arrangement as the Zenith. It has a DC jack input on the rear so you can use your JS2 to power it. It will only use about 2 amps so you'll have the second rail free from your JS2 to power another device. With this as your server you'll get the best of both worlds.

Further improvements- get an EMI reduction sheet eg 3M or Wurth electric or better the one from SOTM and fix it on the underside the servers top panel. Ask the supplier if they can fit a SATA power to Female DC jack adapter ( this is also a simple DIY task) and you can power your hard disc/s directly with your LPS1/s.

If you're going for the SMS200Ultra or Ultrarendu power them with the second output of the JS2 and not the LPS1.

https://www.thinkmate.com/system/superserver-e200-8b

Noble find on the thinkmate site.

 

Just running money numbers in the cold light of day.

 

As configured with a small SSD and 8GB RAM the price of the server with Win 10 is USD801. A JS-2 power supply is USD925, totalling USD1726. forget the freight for now.

 

A Zen MKII standard with the smallest drive is USD2122 with no VAT exemptions. Let's work out the VAT at 20%, that's USD1697 at current rates.  The Innuos has a complete OS built in and a linear supply. Sure there could be differences between the JS-2 and who knows what is supplied with the Zen, but we are looking at some small differences in cost, therefore performance issues can take priority. For a change.

[One and a half]

1 hour ago, ismewor said:

Not too soon just yet. 

Have you try the OCXO or TCXO switch from TLS. http://thelinearsolution.com/ocxo_switch.html

Give them a shout, I have awesome result with their stuff so far.

The hardware is fine, but what about the UTP that radiates noise? On the face of this, I would be up for replacing two switches, a router and two boxes of 1000' of cable with non radiating type (?), plus a grand headache of equi-potential bonding between the router and switches which are a floor away. RFI can be measured. I leave a lot of leeway with subjective opinions on audio quality, and don't insist on measurements, but the linear solution products can be measured and results published.. Use a portable radio as proof