Network Streamers With I2S Output?

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, vortecjr said:

It’s clear what I sell. I have also sold Ethernet to i2s converters so I know them very well and I know what it takes to make them. Adding that process in your DAC makes it more complex not simpler. At the very least all you are doing is trading one protocol for another and then adding the operating system on top all inside your DAC. So processor, ram, FPGA, and operating system versus XMOS chip or some other receiver. Both will need clocks, isolation and power circuits. 

 

Adding what process to the DAC? Hello? The Ethernet to I2S conversion is happening outside the DAC in a streamer. So the DAC is being fed I2S and not having to convert it from USB to I2S. So the DAC is doing less, not more. Less complex thus simpler.

[vortecjr]

An external Ethernet to i2s...fine. Again at the very least all you are doing is trading one protocol for another and then adding jitter by transmitting the signal over wire and via the LVDS conversion process. Having USB to i2s in the DAC is just a better solution overall. 

[diecaster]

2 hours ago, vortecjr said:

An external Ethernet to i2s...fine. Again at the very least all you are doing is trading one protocol for another and then adding jitter by transmitting the signal over wire and via the LVDS conversion process. Having USB to i2s in the DAC is just a better solution overall. 

 

That would depend on the DAC, would it not? For example, with the DirectStream, the designer says I2S "would be the easiest to get sounding the best" and "USB can easily be the worst".

 

This is an I2S output streamer thread. You don't currently sell a streamer that supports I2S. Is that why you are poo-pooing the idea of streamers with I2S outputs?

[gstew]

7 hours ago, diecaster said:

 

The DirectStream DAC, when using any of its inputs including the I2S inputs, ignores the clock of the upstream device.

Agreed. Also any of the DACs using an ESS chip with the ASRC enabled (that is most of them) also ignore the clock of the upstream device.

 

OTOH, in my experience, the lower the jitter & noise is on the data lines EVEN in these setups, the better the sound.

 

That can be handled by using an asynchronous reclocker like the one available from poster Ian Canada on DIYAudio in the DAC before the DAC chip. That is what I'm doing in my direct I2S-fed (not I2S over HDMI) DIY implementations of the Twisted Pear Buffalo-IIIPro DAC cards  AND what TAPatrick is doing in his Allo.com Sparky to AudioGD I2S to HDMI output card setup whch will feed his PS Audio DS DAC.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[gstew]

15 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

That would depend on the DAC, would it not? For example, with the DirectStream, the designer says I2S "would be the easiest to get sounding the best" and "USB can easily be the worst".

 

This is an I2S output streamer thread. You don't currently sell a streamer that supports I2S. Is that why you are poo-pooing the idea of streamers with I2S outputs?

Doesn't the Sonore UltraDigital offer a PS Audio  format I2S over HDMI output? Or am I missing something here?

Greg in Mississippi

[diecaster]

10 minutes ago, gstew said:

Doesn't the Sonore UltraDigital offer a PS Audio  format I2S over HDMI output? Or am I missing something here?

Greg in Mississippi

 

Sure. But Jesus says all it will do is add jitter so why would you use it over straight USB which he says is a better solution?

[gstew]

42 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

Sure. But Jesus says all it will do is add jitter so why would you use it over straight USB which he says is a better solution?

This is just my personal opinion and understanding, so take it with a grain of salt...

USB to I2S REQUIRES audio-frequency clocks to generate the I2S signal. If done right, it will reclock the output I2S at the end of the process and can produce a very good input to the DAC. Of course, we all know it generally isn't done right.

The basic conversion from I2S over HDMI to straight I2S is generally done with a single chip with multiple channels. If this is all that is used, the output I2S will have the jitter added by the conversion process to I2S over HDMI at the output of the source device, the  jitter added by the transmission, and the jitter added by the conversion back to straight I2S at the output. AND there is no reclocking available in that processing stream. So UNLESS you ADD an asynchronous reclocker afterwards (like Ian's as I mentioned in a previous post) or the DAC includes some other reclocking mechanism (like those in the PS Audio DS DACs or the ones built into the chips from ESS), you have at least a moderately jittered I2S signal making your music signal. 

 

As you and others have reported the DS DAC works very well with an I2S over HDMI input. So their reclocking mechanisms do work effectively with that input.

 

All of this has to be considered on a situational basis... what works well in some situations won't in others... or may not even be available in others. Does the DAC do the USB to I2S conversion well? Does it do reclocking after all of the inputs. How effective is this reclocking? How jitter resistant are the DAC's internal mechanisms and processing? The PS Audio DS DACs anecdotally work well with an I2S over HDMI input due to how they are setup. Others have reported the newest version of their Ethernet Bridge to be even better.  And I've seen many who have reported using the Singxer I2S over HDMI converter to be the best sounding with the Holo Spring DAC (so much that there is a veritable mod-fest going on as documented in one of the Holo Spring-related threads here).

 

Personally, I'd like to see more I2S input DACs, especially if they would use a modified version of the PS Audio setup with the clock generated in the DAC and fed to the source. BUT there aren't any like this available currently and darned few using the standard PS Audio I2S over HDMI configuration. USB has not only won in the marketplace, but is now done fairly cheaply for a good setup, though great ones still cost more. Part of why is that EVERY computer has a USB port which can be used to feed music out of the computer, so it is easy for people to use them, they have gained market acceptance, and have become the default standard. I personally think there are some sonic advantages to not using USB, but recent developments have diminished those advantages. AND Sonore has been on the forefront of those advantages. AND Sonore has also been in the forefront of promoting I2S over HDMI in the past and recently started offering a device to do that again.

 

Given this, I'd say Sonore has a better perspective than most to offer an opinion on this.

 

MAYBE more I2S solutions will become available. I am heartened by the ones highlighted so far in this thread. AND while I wouldn't personally agree that straight USB is the better solution, I can see why some would say that.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[MTZ Audio]

The I2S card i use in my computer is developed by a small Dutch high end audio company called Pink Faun.

They make a lot of high end equipment and sell it through their website: https://www.pinkfaun.com

You can ask them how it works because i am not an engineer.

 

I know they provide a great service.

 

My pc has a basic setup without lineair power supply and it has an old quad core processor. The only things i changed was the cooling and ssd. For me the benefit of using a pc is that u can use different types of software and media players. You don't depend on the software from manufacterers.

I made a short video for youtube where you can see my setup: https://youtu.be/BsKChwXauPs

 

There is an other company that developed a computer based streamer as well. It is called Van Medevoort.

In 2016 they introduced the MP470, a streamer with an I2S output. The OS is windows 10 and the media player is Foobar. So if a high end company as Van Medevoort thinks it's good enough?

 

 

 

 

 

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, diecaster said:

 

That would depend on the DAC, would it not? For example, with the DirectStream, the designer says I2S "would be the easiest to get sounding the best" and "USB can easily be the worst".

 

This is an I2S output streamer thread. You don't currently sell a streamer that supports I2S. Is that why you are poo-pooing the idea of streamers with I2S outputs?

Not really. The claim to fame of the PS Audio DS is that all the inputs sound the same. i2s is very easy to to make bad as well. I'm not sure where you guys got the idea that because it's i2s it most be good. There are some really poor implementations out there. Like I said it's clear what I sell and don't. I wouldn't hurt for you to stop being paranoid though...I'm here because I like the topic.

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, gstew said:

Agreed. Also any of the DACs using an ESS chip with the ASRC enabled (that is most of them) also ignore the clock of the upstream device.

 

OTOH, in my experience, the lower the jitter & noise is on the data lines EVEN in these setups, the better the sound.

 

That can be handled by using an asynchronous reclocker like the one available from poster Ian Canada on DIYAudio in the DAC before the DAC chip. That is what I'm doing in my direct I2S-fed (not I2S over HDMI) DIY implementations of the Twisted Pear Buffalo-IIIPro DAC cards  AND what TAPatrick is doing in his Allo.com Sparky to AudioGD I2S to HDMI output card setup whch will feed his PS Audio DS DAC.

 

Greg in Mississippi

For clarity these devices ignore only the master clock. They still use the bit clock, word clock, and the serial data. FYI On my Buffalo DAC build I use the ASRC setup because it make it easier to run PCM and DSD simultaneously. 

 

Reclocking in the DAC is a great idea and also done by good USB implementations inside the DAC. So where is the net gain from going to this alternate solutions.  

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, gstew said:

Doesn't the Sonore UltraDigital offer a PS Audio  format I2S over HDMI output? Or am I missing something here?

Greg in Mississippi

Yes we do, but you guys are not interested in USB:)  

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, MTZ Audio said:

The I2S card i use in my computer is developed by a small Dutch high end audio company called Pink Faun.

They make a lot of high end equipment and sell it through their website: https://www.pinkfaun.com

You can ask them how it works because i am not an engineer.

 

I know they provide a great service.

 

My pc has a basic setup without lineair power supply and it has an old quad core processor. The only things i changed was the cooling and ssd. For me the benefit of using a pc is that u can use different types of software and media players. You don't depend on the software from manufacterers.

I made a short video for youtube where you can see my setup: https://youtu.be/BsKChwXauPs

 

There is an other company that developed a computer based streamer as well. It is called Van Medevoort.

In 2016 they introduced the MP470, a streamer with an I2S output. The OS is windows 10 and the media player is Foobar. So if a high end company as Van Medevoort thinks it's good enough?

I have that card here and Jord Groen from Pink Faun is an industry friend. This is a prime example of one format (USB to i2s) vs another (PCIe to i2s).

 

I'll tell you guys a story later today. 

[MTZ Audio]

Hello all,

 

I just found out that it's possible to stream master Tidal music files on 24bit/48khz through Foobar with the Mconnect app.

Maybe you already new but it's new to me. This is already better than standard CD Quality.

 

Greetings,

Mark

 

 

[tapatrick]

On 2/26/2018 at 5:05 AM, gstew said:

As you and others have reported the DS DAC works very well with an I2S over HDMI input. So their reclocking mechanisms do work effectively with that input.

To confirm what Greg says here, I tried a WavIO USB to I2S converter with an Audio g-d HDMI I2S module into my PS Audio Junior DAC and the result was impressive. I've also been using Lucians new Bluwave USB to Spdif board into my DAC as well. This is also stunning due to the isolation and the quality of the oscillators on the Bluewave.

 

These 2 results set me on the path to find the best input and I'm working on a Sparky Roon streamer chain including Ian Canadas reclocker and isolators boards plus an Audio g-d HDMI module (to sidestep the usb to I2S stage). This is still in progress as I had some Linux programming to learn about plus glitches with my Audio g-d module and an LT3045 3.3v regulator. Its not been smooth but new items are in the post, so hopefully in a week or so I may be able to get this all working and powered with clean DC. Even though the PS Audio DACs use an internal master clock the quality of supplied input, especially if it has been isolated, clean powered and reclocked does matter.

 

Makes me also wonder what the result could be if the master clock (a crystek VXCO I believe) in the PS Audio was upgraded... hmm

[tapatrick]

Just out - the Ambre from Metrum, looks like the first properly manufactured Network streamer with I2S outputs amongst others. Here is a first review...

https://metrumacoustics.com/hot-first-review-of-the-ambre-by-lexicom/?utm_source=Metrum+Acoustics&utm_campaign=49bc32cf91-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_05_17&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ae2619be61-49bc32cf91-56931529&goal=0_ae2619be61-49bc32cf91-56931529&mc_cid=49bc32cf91&mc_eid=bf329ec65a

[T-Bone]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Just out - the Ambre from Metrum, looks like the first properly manufactured Network streamer with I2S outputs amongst others. Here is a first review...

Now that does look interesting!  Thanks for sharing.
I suspect that device will get quite a following here.

[Solstice380]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Just out - the Ambre from Metrum, looks like the first properly manufactured Network streamer with I2S outputs amongst others. Here is a first review...

https://metrumacoustics.com/hot-first-review-of-the-ambre-by-lexicom/?utm_source=Metrum+Acoustics&utm_campaign=49bc32cf91-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_05_17&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_ae2619be61-49bc32cf91-56931529&goal=0_ae2619be61-49bc32cf91-56931529&mc_cid=49bc32cf91&mc_eid=bf329ec65a

 

Being limited to 192/24 will limit the interest.  Most likely it is well suited to the Metrum DACs. 

[diecaster]

The Ambre uses RJ45 I2S which is not compatible with devices that use LVDS I2S. 

[chauphuong]

Is Mano a Rasp Pi ?

[tapatrick]

On 5/18/2018 at 7:14 AM, chauphuong said:

Is Mano a Rasp Pi ?

Yes, its based on the Rpi..

https://www.magnahifi.com/index.php/nl/webshop/product/MH-HE-Pi2S

[tapatrick]

On 5/17/2018 at 3:27 PM, diecaster said:

The Ambre uses RJ45 I2S which is not compatible with devices that use LVDS I2S. 

Yes but it could be tweaked for some that wouldn't be too difficult..

[tapatrick]

On 2/26/2018 at 12:16 PM, vortecjr said:

I'll tell you guys a story later today. 

... I'm curious what that story was..  

[diecaster]

2 hours ago, tapatrick said:

Yes but it could be tweaked for some that wouldn't be too difficult..

 

No, it cannot. 

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, diecaster said:

 

No, it cannot. 

Why not. Depends on the tweaker.. question is whether its worth it.

Can be done with and Audio-gd HDMI LVDS module or one of these...http://yanasoft.jp/yana/hdmi_i2s.html

 

[George Hincapie]

Metrum Acoustics Ambre has I2S. I have just recieved one.