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Network Streamers With I2S Output?


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Maybe the USB output of my laptop was crap.  I did a lot of testing comparing straight USB, AES and I2S through my Singxer and into my Holo.  I2S was the clear winner.  AES was a close second and USB was by far the least favorite.    Either way, if your USB sounds good to you - rock on!

 

You are right the AK4118A is used in the SPIDF and AES.  I was mistaken.

 

The point remains the same, I2S skips a receiver chipset and is one less conversion of your audio signal before hitting the DAC chip. 

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6 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

I've got the Holo Spring DAC too and I am on the record as not being a fan of its USB implementation at all.  In my listening tests, I found the USB input to be the worst performer.  I feel that Holo's USB implementation is its Achilles' heel.  Using the I2S input bypasses the internal AK4118A receiver and pretty much sends the signal straight to the digital/analog conversion.  

 

That's why I'm keen to streamline my signal path and get rid of the "daisy-chain" of USB devices.  

 

So to hear you say that you prefer the SOTM's USB output into you DAC is a bit of a shock.

....trust your ears.  If that's what sounds best to you - enjoy it!

 

Now that I'm sold on I2S as the "best" input on my DAC and in my system, I'm trying to find out how to get the "best" quality I2S signal.  I'm not sure if that will be a USB chain terminated by an SU-1 or perhaps it starts life as an Ethernet signal and terminates with a Mano ULTRA.  

In theory I agree with you but my ears tell me that skipping the SU-1 the sound is slightly more detailed and has a punchier bass.

I am in this thread to understand why with an open mind.

 

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Hmmh, strange. Based on my measurements, it's USB interface is very good...

 

 

That's not used with USB inputs...

I’m very much interested in how the Spring handles the USB to I2S conversion, maybe you can share your thoughts?

Is it all handled by the XMOS module? Would a better XMOS module make any difference on the accuracy of the conversion?

and what clock is used?

NUC10i7 Roon ROCK > EtherREGEN > Lumin U1 Mini > Chord DAVE > Focal Utopia 

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4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Well you are just shifting the USB>I2S conversion to an external box.

 

As I have pointed out before, the USB input of the Spring is fine and typical—and about the same as the Singxer SU-1.  What makes the I2S sound better is that using it bypasses the Spring’s cheap clocks and allows the much lower phase-noise Crystek CCHD-575s of the SU-1 to become the master clock for the DAC.  A mod to upgrade the clocks in the Spring would tip things the other way.

Yeah that’s exactly the reason for the improvement.

It would be great to have a “Level 4” upgrade by using the same CCHD-575s of the SU-1 in the Spring.

NUC10i7 Roon ROCK > EtherREGEN > Lumin U1 Mini > Chord DAVE > Focal Utopia 

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7 hours ago, diecaster said:

The Spring is well known to have a less than stellar USB implementation and does better with the SU-1 doing the conversion to I2S. 

 

But, this thread is about network streamers that do I2S so we are talking Ethernet to I2S here, not USB to I2S. 

Have you heard one for you to comment on this absolute truth you mention?

You are right about going OT, I am glad there are members like yourself watching the consistency of our discussions!

Thanks!

NUC10i7 Roon ROCK > EtherREGEN > Lumin U1 Mini > Chord DAVE > Focal Utopia 

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T-Bone Hi

 

I use an Aurilac Aries Mini streamer fed by a Lps into a Holo Cyan.  Holo suggests it's usb implementation is better than the one in the Holo  Spring.  I also have an iso-regen fed by an LpS-1. In my experiments I have found the Co-ax can edge out the usb.  My Chord brand silver Co-ax couldn't match optimised USB but I then tried the HAC+ carbon fibre co-ax (see Mono and Stereo review) which was was the leveller.  Certainly avoids the extra boxes!  

 

I mainly use this rig for PCM listening and now use the iso-regen etc in another rig which is optimised for DSD listening when I want that. 

 

 I am very particular about quality power supplies in all my kit and would not use a PC as a source these days. 

 

Certainly worth trying a steamer and higher end Co-ax solution from a try and return source while we wait for a better IS2 option. 

 

Vincent 

Sydneysider

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On 18.01.2018 at 1:47 AM, FredM said:

less known: the Soundaware D100 Pro

 

The Soundaware D100 Pro have unbalanced rj-45 i2s what cannot connect with Holo Spring balanced hdmi i2s in.

 

For TC you can choose between china guys

Soundaware D280/ D300/ D300 REF (1/1,5/3 k$)

Shinrico SHD20 (1,5) full player with 2*9038 Sabre

Cayin iDAP-8 (0,8)

All them don't know about Roon :)

or usb train with chinese last coach: Singxer Su-1.

 

Now i'm choosing new source for Holo Spring too, looking wider: with normal DO: coax, AES, i2s and see only costly solution: DCS network bridge, Bricasti M5 ore listed chinese :)

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Hello Audiophiles,

 

As i wrote before i use an I2S Pcie card in my old computer. This card has a seperate 12V power connection with filtering.

So it is not powered by the motherboard. There is also filtering on the Pcie side.

I created an audio file with 30 seconds of silence followed by 30 seconds pink noise in adobe audition.

I played this file through Foobar with high volume on my pre-amp and there was no hiss or any noise during the 30 seconds of silence. 

The computer i use is about 10 years old and has a decent switching power supply. The sound provided by the I2S card is revealing every detail in the music.

One of these days i will try a dedicated streamer to find out if it's better than my own setup.

I already compared the output via usb against I2S on my W4S dac2 and I2S was a clear winner.

 

Mark..

 

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1 hour ago, MTZ Audio said:

Hello Audiophiles,

 

As i wrote before i use an I2S Pcie card in my old computer. This card has a seperate 12V power connection with filtering.

So it is not powered by the motherboard. There is also filtering on the Pcie side.

I created an audio file with 30 seconds of silence followed by 30 seconds pink noise in adobe audition.

I played this file through Foobar with high volume on my pre-amp and there was no hiss or any noise during the 30 seconds of silence. 

The computer i use is about 10 years old and has a decent switching power supply. The sound provided by the I2S card is revealing every detail in the music.

One of these days i will try a dedicated streamer to find out if it's better than my own setup.

I already compared the output via usb against I2S on my W4S dac2 and I2S was a clear winner.

 

Mark..

 

Mark,

 

Which I2S Pcie card?

 

I did something like this with my cMP/cPlay setup. I used a super-modified Juli@ digital section that fed I2S to a closely-coupled tweaked EUVL ES9022-based DAC card, all linear supplies (3 for the Juli@, DAC card, and its clocks, 5 for the ATX P24/P4 and control voltages, 1 for the SSD, and another 3 for the controls... monitor, IR-remote keyboard, and multiple-relay board for remotely switching different functions on/off). AND the Windows XP-based cMP/cPlay OpSys/SW load was hyper-minimized down to <15Mb!

 

It sounded good, but I really wanted an I2S-output device that supported 384 so I could upsample & use those filters to replace most DAC-chips' non-optimal onboard filters. So I was already looking for alternative setups. Then I did a comprehensive set of mods to a Sony HAP Z1-ES, & it bettered the cMP/cPlay setup. Now my best RPi setups better that Sony and my SDTrans384 -> Soekris setup betters those. I've totally avoided USB-based setups, first because of the improvements heard when we removed USB functionality from that cMP/cPlay OpSys/SW load while minimizing it, then because of the improvements people heard with the various USB cleanup devices (IMHO a truly inspired set of products starting with the original Regen and uRendu, but also IMHO a well-done I2S setup will be as good or better with fewer pieces of EQ & lots less processing going on... but very few DACs can work with that well-done I2S setup, that's one of the main reasons I DIY mine!). 

 

I'd LOVE to do an upsampled setup with HQ Player or one of the other great products out there. BUT AFAIK, there is no 384-enabled I2S-output PCI/PCIE cards nor are there any motherboards that will run one of these upsampling SW products that also can output I2S. That's why I've gone to the RPi (and have some BeagleBoneBlack setups I need to finish) to use as endpoints that can at least be fed 384 via Ethernet (and that still needs some fixup, just less than USB IMHO).

 

AND I'm pretty committed to avoiding the USB world. Which is why I'm watching this and similar threads to see what becomes available in this world.

 

I DO agree with people like @Superdad who point out that the PS Audio I2S over HDMI standard is compromised due to feeding the master clock from the source rather than having the master clock next to the DAC and feeding it to the source. It works as well as it does in most of the setups that use it due to reclocking of some sort or another at the DAC end, often ESS DAC chips using ASRC, but also things like the PS Audio Directstream with the FPGA-based upsampling. AND it appears that the ASRC built into the latest ESS PRO DAC chips have closed the gap A LOT between synchronous and asynchronous clocking. So my next references may be DACs with those chips (my current top setups use Soekris R2R DIY'd DAC boards).

 

Good discussion here! I'm still looking for that mythical motherboard-connected 384 PCM/512 DSD-able PCI/PCIE card or a HQ Player-able motherboard with I2S outputs and a decent on-board power network. HOPEFULLY someone will discover or create one and we'll hear about it here!

 

Greg in Mississippi 

Everything Matters!

2 systems... Well-Tempered Refs->ET-2.5->DIY or Lounge LCR MkII phono stages

Standalone digital Sony HAP Z1-ES or SDTrans384/Soekris DAM DAC

Networked digital Zotac PI320-W2 LMS Server -> EtherRegen -> USBBridge Sig -> Katana / Ian GB / Soerkis / Buffalo-IIIPro DACs

Passive S&B TX102 TVC or ladder attenuators -> BHK-250 -> Eminent Tech LFT-VIII / IV / VI

ALL gear modified / DIY'd; cables MIT;  all supplies DIY’d or LPS-1.2s w/HUGE Ultracaps; Audio gear on DIY AC filters + PS Aud P15s; misc gear on separate AC w/filters

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41 minutes ago, gstew said:

DO agree with people like @Superdad who point out that the PS Audio I2S over HDMI standard is compromised due to feeding the master clock from the source rather than having the master clock next to the DAC and feeding it to the source. It works as well as it does in most of the setups that use it due to reclocking of some sort or another at the DAC end, often ESS DAC chips using ASRC, but also things like the PS Audio Directstream with the FPGA-based upsampling. AND it appears that the ASRC built into the latest ESS PRO DAC chips have closed the gap A LOT between synchronous and asynchronous clocking. So my next references may be DACs with those chips (my current top setups use Soekris R2R DIY'd DAC boards).

 

The DirectStream DAC, when using any of its inputs including the I2S inputs, ignores the clock of the upstream device.

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11 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

The DirectStream DAC, when using any of its inputs including the I2S inputs, ignores the clock of the upstream device.

Interesting..supposedly the Spring Dac does as gstew mentioned, uses the clock from whatever is upstream which is so many people use a DDC like the Singxer SU-1 before the Dac?  I even upgraded the clocks in the SU-1 with binned ones that has better performance than the stock ones.  

 

That being said, I would love to eliminate USB from my system.  Hopefully something awesome becomes available soon.

12TB NAS >> i7-6700 Server/Control PC >> i3-5015u NAA >> Singxer SU-1 DDC (modded) >> Holo Spring L3 DAC >> Accustic Arts Power 1 int amp >> Sonus Faber Guaneri Evolution speakers + REL T/5i sub (x2)

 

Other components:

UpTone Audio LPS1.2/IsoRegen, Fiber Switch and FMC, Windows Server 2016 OS, Audiophile Optimizer 3.0, Fidelizer Pro 6, HQ Player, Roonserver, PS Audio P3 AC regenerator, HDPlex 400W ATX & 200W Linear PSU, Light Harmonic Lightspeed Split USB cable, Synergistic Research Tungsten AC power cords, Tara Labs The One speaker cables, Tara Labs The Two Extended with HFX Station IC, Oyaide R1 outlets, Stillpoints Ultra Mini footers, Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, Vicoustic/RealTraps/GIK room treatments

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1 minute ago, vortecjr said:

A computer with an operating system is your solution. 

 

I use my Air when changing source, i cant see intel sys benefits over arm board. Minus: hard to correct power, cooler noice, cost. Number of fabric audio out limited: Sotm over usb, Paul Pang...

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32 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

What are you guys hoping to gain from eliminating USB in your systems?

 

For streaming, why go from:

 

Ethernet input to USB output to USB input on DAC which then converts to I2S

 

When you can do this:

 

Ethernet input to I2S output to I2S input on DAC

 

Why not get rid of USB if you can?

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All you are doing is placing all the processing for that task inside the DAC versus just the USB to i2s portion in the DAC. I have been looking at the solutions out there and found some high end gear with $12 boards inside them. What do you think you are getting for 12 bucks. 

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39 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

All you are doing is placing all the processing for that task inside the DAC versus just the USB to i2s portion in the DAC. I have been looking at the solutions out there and found some high end gear with $12 boards inside them. What do you think you are getting for 12 bucks. 

 

Huh? What I am suggesting is taking away the USB part of the process. I know you sell Ethernet to USB streamers so maybe you have some bias here. I am actually suggesting having the DAC do less work, not more. Using a Ethernet to I2S streamer means the DAC does less because it doesn't have to do the USB to I2S conversion. 

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It’s clear what I sell. I have also sold Ethernet to i2s converters so I know them very well and I know what it takes to make them. Adding that process in your DAC makes it more complex not simpler. At the very least all you are doing is trading one protocol for another and then adding the operating system on top all inside your DAC. So processor, ram, FPGA, and operating system versus XMOS chip or some other receiver. Both will need clocks, isolation and power circuits. 

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2 hours ago, vortecjr said:

What are you guys hoping to gain from eliminating USB in your systems?

 

I hate the physical mechanism in of itself.  When using a PC as music player, the slightest movement of the cable can temporarily disconnect it from my DAC.  '"KerWUMMP", or whaever your Windows sound for that is.  Then, it re-engages (another KerWUUMP).  That port is easily compromised and I would much rather use an input that locks.

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