barrows Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: ok, thanks for the explanation...it seems to make sense to some degree, but if the computer software is more capable of upsampling, why not just use the computer to upsample to same rate as the chord does? I am not aware of any way to transport 104 MHz sample rate to a DAC from a computer: certainly I no of no DAC which can accept an input sample rate of 104 MHz. eenecho 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, barrows said: I am not aware of any way to transport 104 MHz sample rate to a DAC from a computer: certainly I no of no DAC which can accept an input sample rate of 104 MHz. 104mhz? wow..had no idea....but still why not upsample to high rate dsd first and then to the dac...still higher than 705K? I understand 705 is highest pcm, but chord accepts dsd input so why not go to dsd256+ before going to chord if computer software is better at upsampling...why stop at 705? Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 and one more question for davide.... since you have mojo and plan to upgrade to qutest, can you tell me al the differences between the two? Link to comment
barrows Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: 104mhz? wow..had no idea....but still why not upsample to high rate dsd first and then to the dac...still higher than 705K? I understand 705 is highest pcm, but chord accepts dsd input so why not go to dsd256+ before going to chord if computer software is better at upsampling...why stop at 705? I over sample in the computer to DSD 256. That is 11.29ish MHz. I know that Jussi, @Miska has a pcm rate he recommends oversampling to for his HQPlayer customers who are using Chord DACs. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
ecwl Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: 104mhz? wow..had no idea....but still why not upsample to high rate dsd first and then to the dac...still higher than 705K? I understand 705 is highest pcm, but chord accepts dsd input so why not go to dsd256+ before going to chord if computer software is better at upsampling...why stop at 705? Every DAC actually has two parts, the oversampling + noise shaper part which is digital and then the actually digital to analog conversion part. So for ladder DACs, the R2R (chips) actually put out say 16-bit in levels at up to 192kHz (like Davide’s DAC) or 384kHz. PS Audio Directstream puts out 1-bit/1-element 5.6MHz DSD or Emm Labs DAC is 1-bit 44.8MHz. Sabre DACs I think can work to up to 40MHz for its 64?-elements. As discussed before, Mojo is 4-element 104MHz, Qutest is 10-element 104MHz. The idea of using DSD or multiple elements of PWM is that you’re trying to take the digital version of the analog wave you’ve calculated (say at 705.6kHz) and then convert it from say 705.6kHz 24-bit into 104MHz 5-bit so that the wave form in the audible range is the same but you get some ultrahigh frequency noise that you’ll just filter out with an analog filter. So the last step is really an upsampling/oversampling with noise shaping. So whenever you convert anything to DSD, you’re actually not just upsampling to say a higher sample rate e.g. 11.2MHz 1-bit but you’re also noise shaping it to that frequency. You’re essentially trying to target the DAC architecture. In Barrows’ case, upsampling to DSD256 and then feeding the noise shaped signal to the Sabre DAC’s 64 elements to reproduce makes sense as you’re bypassing the Sabre’s internal upsampling and noise-shaper and all 64 elements essentially gets the same DSD256 signal. But for Chord DACs, you cannot directly send the DAC 104MHz 5-bit signal from the PC to the DAC. So no matter what signal you send to a Chord DAC, if it’s PCM, it’ll get converted to 705.6/768kHz PCM (56-bit actually) first and then get upsample and noise shaped to 104MHz 5-bit and then noise shaped to the 4-elements or 10-elements or 20-element pulse array DAC (DAVE). If you send Chord DACs a DSD signal, the DAC will always convert the DSD64/DSD128/DSD256 into 705.6kHz PCM 24 bits? first and then convert the 705.6kHz PCM 24 bits into 104MHz 5-bit. But you’ve actually done extra math that is probably going to make the signal worse. That’s why for people who want to use HQPlayer, Jussi’s recommendation is to upsample to 705.6kHz which Chord DACs accept natively without conversion. Link to comment
Popular Post ecwl Posted June 1, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 1, 2020 42 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: and one more question for davide.... since you have mojo and plan to upgrade to qutest, can you tell me al the differences between the two? I have the Mojo and Hugo2. I can tell you the difference between Mojo & Hugo2. The sonic difference is the same as the specs and designs would tell you. Mojo has a 38000 taps 16fs upsampling and Hugo2 has a 49152 taps for 16fs upsampling. But more importantly, Mojo only has a 4-element 104MHz pulse array DAC with a 5th order noise shaper whereas the Hugo2 has a 10-element 104MHz pulse array DAC with a 11th order noise shaper. Because the WTA filter is fundamentally the same for both DACs, the more taps there are, the more precise the transients so every string plucks, every drum strikes are generally more realistic. Moreover, the timbre of instruments are more accurate. The increase in elements in the pulse array DAC and the improvement in noise shaper order means that you’re going to get less noise, better SNR, so you get more microdetails and soundstage depth. Other than for cost and portability reasons, I don’t recommend anyone who can afford it to get Mojo anymore because I think the jump from Mojo to Qutest/Hugo2 is reasonably significant. That said, when I don’t want to carry Hugo2 around, I do use the Mojo. Qutest is just the Hugo2 without the battery supply and without the 2nd order analog noise shaper which is needed for the amplification for headphones. Sonically, in a system with preamps, the Hugo2 and Qutest should sound fairly similar. jos and buonassi 2 Link to comment
davide256 Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 53 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: and one more question for davide.... since you have mojo and plan to upgrade to qutest, can you tell me al the differences between the two? 1) the Mojo doesn't have galvanic isolation so electrical noise from a source will travel across a wired connection. Might not be an issue with a high quality ($$$) USB endpoint but I definitely have random background computer chatter with a NUC... a nuisance similar to vinyl surface noise 2) the Mojo is hobbled for chip speed in order to prolong battery life 3) the input/output connections of the Mojo are miniature which means you have to use adaptors to connect all your good main system cables... adaptors add cable degradation the Qutest remedies all of these, is designed for main system use. I haven't auditioned a Qutest yet but based on its reviews, newer design and the pleasing results I'm getting from the Mojo, I expect the Qutest to perform even better and integrate properly as main system DAC that I can power with an LPS 1.2 Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 ^^^thanks all..a lot to digest, but i have screen captured and will study closely. At some point i want to buy a used qutest, so this is all good info...thanks! Will likely try the gustard a18 first once it comes out mainly because it is more inline with my budget. Link to comment
HumanMedia Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 6/1/2020 at 9:53 AM, beerandmusic said: 104mhz? wow..had no idea....but still why not upsample to high rate dsd first and then to the dac...still higher than 705K? I understand 705 is highest pcm, but chord accepts dsd input so why not go to dsd256+ before going to chord if computer software is better at upsampling...why stop at 705? Apart from the Chord Dave DAC, all Chord DACs and the MScaler decimate all DSD to 705khz PCM before doing anything with it. My guess is that the downsampling is pretty simplistic so any upsampling of DSD will most likely be a waste and thrown out anyway. Reading the responses above - what ECWL said. Note that the DAC designer mentioned that 90% of the processing power of the DAC was spent doing the first stage upsampling (the WTA1 filter) and that the second upsample stage (the WTA2 filter) the remaining processing. Which is why offloading this to a massively more powerful processor, either the Chord MScaler or other sophisticated external PC applications (Signalyst etc) makes sense to get it to that 705khz / 768khz stage. Note that it has to be a pretty good external processing to better the Qutest WTA1 filter, that is upsampling with Windows/Mac sound managers or Roon, will likely make it sound worse... Superdad 1 Link to comment
Popular Post johndoe21ro Posted June 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 6/1/2020 at 4:08 AM, davide256 said: 1) the Mojo doesn't have galvanic isolation so electrical noise from a source will travel across a wired connection. Might not be an issue with a high quality ($$$) USB endpoint but I definitely have random background computer chatter with a NUC... a nuisance similar to vinyl surface noise 2) the Mojo is hobbled for chip speed in order to prolong battery life 3) the input/output connections of the Mojo are miniature which means you have to use adaptors to connect all your good main system cables... adaptors add cable degradation the Qutest remedies all of these, is designed for main system use. I haven't auditioned a Qutest yet but based on its reviews, newer design and the pleasing results I'm getting from the Mojo, I expect the Qutest to perform even better and integrate properly as main system DAC that I can power with an LPS 1.2 I wouldn't power the Qutest with an UpTone LPS1.2 unless you want it to sound more analytical and with less mid bass than desired. The LPS1.2 is one helluva power supply but it works better with other equipments! jos and HumanMedia 1 1 Triangle Magellan Concerto 2 < AQ Everest < Vitus Audio SS-010 Mk2 < AQ Dragon High Current < AQ WEL XLR < Chord Qutest DAC w UpTone JS-2 & AQ Dragon Source < AQ Diamond USB < Innuos Phoenix USB w AQ Dragon Source < Aurender N100H & AQ Dragon Source < NetGear GS105GE Switch w UpTone LPS1.2 < Supra CAT8 Ethernet < Gryphon PowerZone w AQ NRG-Wild < Stillpoints UltraSS, Ansuz Darkz D-TC & D2, Omicron Harmonic Stabilizer, Gold Evolution SE & Classic < Furutech FT-SWS (R) < Synergistic Research Orange Quantum Fuse < Solid Tech Hybrid < GigaWatt G-16A 2P Circuit Breaker Link to comment
Lauritsvd Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Has anybody tried a Powersupply with LT3045 regulators with the Qutest? like the one MPAudio makes? https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/als-hpuln-ps regards Ove. Asus Prime-P z590 MB. Intel Core i5 11400 , Jcat usb XE Pci-usb card. Intel Optane m2 with Euphony Stylus software. And running Ramrod. Jcat Femto Netcard. HDPlex linear w300, HDPlex 400 atx, HDPlex H5 case. MPAudio SLS-hpuln with JCat Optimo Nano Powering the Jcat XE pcie-usb card. Farad 3 lpsu powering the Netcard femto. 2 Buffalo 2008 switch. One stock, and one Buffalo 2008 switch with NewclassD Neutron star Clock powered by MPAudio SLS-hpuln, Voltcraft fps_1132 lpsu Powering the fibernet box, and first Buffalo 2008 switch. With a Idovr regulator. Link to comment
pl_svn Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lauritsvd said: Has anybody tried a Powersupply with LT3045 regulators with the Qutest? you mean the very same regulator found in... UpTone's LPS-1.2? 😜 Qnap HS-264 NAS (powered by an HD-Plex 100w LPS) > Cirrus7 Nimbini v2.5 Media Edition i7-8559U/32/512 running Roon ROCK (powered by a Keces P8 LPS) > Lumin U2 > Metrum Acoustics Adagio NOS digital preamplifier > First Watt SIT 3 power amplifier (or Don Garber Fi "Y" 6922 tube preamplifier + Don Garber Fi "X" 2A3 SET power amplifier, both powered from an Alpha-Core BP-30 Isolated Symmetrical Power Transformer) > Klipsch Cornwall III headphones system: Cirrus 7 > Lumin U2 > Metrum Acoustics Adagio > Pathos Aurium amplifier (powered by an UpTone Audio JS-2 LPS) > Focal Clear headphones Link to comment
johndoe21ro Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 6 minutes ago, Lauritsvd said: Has anybody tried a Powersupply with LT3045 regulators with the Qutest? like the one MPAudio makes? https://www.mpaudio.net/product-page/als-hpuln-ps regards Ove. I did. But my conclusion might differ than yours... I found it a tad more refined than the JS-2 with wider soundstage and better microdynamics and resolution, maybe a tad more relaxed too but the UpTone PS had better bass, better macrodynamics, deeper soundstage and better layering and was maybe a tad more transparent. But it was not quite an apple to apple comparison. I've used different cables with each power supply (standard Belden with the JS-2 and solid core silver with the 10 regs MPAudio). Triangle Magellan Concerto 2 < AQ Everest < Vitus Audio SS-010 Mk2 < AQ Dragon High Current < AQ WEL XLR < Chord Qutest DAC w UpTone JS-2 & AQ Dragon Source < AQ Diamond USB < Innuos Phoenix USB w AQ Dragon Source < Aurender N100H & AQ Dragon Source < NetGear GS105GE Switch w UpTone LPS1.2 < Supra CAT8 Ethernet < Gryphon PowerZone w AQ NRG-Wild < Stillpoints UltraSS, Ansuz Darkz D-TC & D2, Omicron Harmonic Stabilizer, Gold Evolution SE & Classic < Furutech FT-SWS (R) < Synergistic Research Orange Quantum Fuse < Solid Tech Hybrid < GigaWatt G-16A 2P Circuit Breaker Link to comment
Lauritsvd Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, johndoe21ro said: I did. But my conclusion might differ than yours... I found it a tad more refined than the JS-2 with wider soundstage and better microdynamics and resolution, maybe a tad more relaxed too but the UpTone PS had better bass, better macrodynamics, deeper soundstage and better layering and maybe a tad more transparent. But it was not quite an apple to apple comparison. I've used different cables with each power supply (standard Belden with the JS-2 and solid core silver with the 10 regs MPAudio). Thank You for your feedback. Im thinking about trying put the double regulator type in the link from MPAudio. Asus Prime-P z590 MB. Intel Core i5 11400 , Jcat usb XE Pci-usb card. Intel Optane m2 with Euphony Stylus software. And running Ramrod. Jcat Femto Netcard. HDPlex linear w300, HDPlex 400 atx, HDPlex H5 case. MPAudio SLS-hpuln with JCat Optimo Nano Powering the Jcat XE pcie-usb card. Farad 3 lpsu powering the Netcard femto. 2 Buffalo 2008 switch. One stock, and one Buffalo 2008 switch with NewclassD Neutron star Clock powered by MPAudio SLS-hpuln, Voltcraft fps_1132 lpsu Powering the fibernet box, and first Buffalo 2008 switch. With a Idovr regulator. Link to comment
Popular Post asdf1000 Posted June 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 6/1/2020 at 7:44 AM, barrows said: I am not aware of any way to transport 104 MHz sample rate to a DAC from a computer: certainly I no of no DAC which can accept an input sample rate of 104 MHz. M-Scaler isn't upsampling to 104 MHz though.. it's upsampling to PCM705/768kHz... the DACs still upsample internally, to 104 MHz. Superdad and buonassi 1 1 Link to comment
ecwl Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 10 hours ago, HumanMedia said: Note that the DAC designer mentioned that 90% of the processing power of the DAC was spent doing the first stage upsampling (the WTA1 filter) and that the second upsample stage (the WTA2 filter) the remaining processing. Actually the Chord DAC designer Rob Watts only said that for the Chord DAVE, 90% of the processing power is dedicated to the first stage upsampling. We actually don’t know how he divided Qutest in terms of processing power for WTA1 vs WTA2. But of course, your main points are still valid. HumanMedia 1 Link to comment
Jumbosausage Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Hi guys, bit of a strange post but I was wondering what people’s thoughts were on my current setup. The reason I ask is that I literally have nothing to compare it to. I recently moved into a new house and decided to get a decent (at least I hope) setup. I purchased everything blind and the only thing I do have to compare it to is my previous system of an Ifi audio Idsd DAC going into a pair of Focal solo6be studio monitors from 5 years ago. My only source is digital (flac) coming from a fanless NUC pc running Jriver. NUC > Mercury USB cable > Ifi iUSB 3.0 > Gemini Power/data cable > Chord Qutest > Elac Navis ARB 51 powered speakers. I can’t seem to tell much difference between these cables and standard USB cables but the iusb3.0 certainly seems to make a difference, it’s hard to compare the Qutest to my previous DAC as I’m obviously using different speakers. I wish I had a few more pieces of equipment to test things but I’m running it blind really. Overall tho im really happy with the sound and my friends are blown away when they listen to it. Just curious to what you knowledgable folks think. Many thank. Link to comment
Blake Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 5/31/2020 at 7:08 PM, davide256 said: the Qutest remedies all of these, is designed for main system use. I haven't auditioned a Qutest yet but based on its reviews, newer design and the pleasing results I'm getting from the Mojo, I expect the Qutest to perform even better and integrate properly as main system DAC that I can power with an LPS 1.2 I recently had Mojo and Qutest in my main system. Your expectations will be met and then some. Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
Popular Post barrows Posted June 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2020 The biggest difference in the Mojo/Qutest performance is almost certainly due to the increased number of elements in the Pulse Array DAC. This difference also shows up in the measurements. I have experienced, that despite Rob Watts' claims to the contrary, the Qutest does respond well to power supply upgrades. I designed a power supply for my Brother's Qutest, and voila, the DAC sound quality was nicely improved. HumanMedia, jos, Jeremy Anderson and 2 others 4 1 SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
6aardvark9 Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Improvements with upstream reclockers are also apparent, even with Dave/MScaler, despite information to the contrary 2015 MacBook Pro > SOtM tX-USBultra > Mutec MC3+USB > Chord Blu Mk2 > Chord Dave > ATC SIA2-150/P1/P2 > ATC SCM50 PSLT Link to comment
Popular Post kennyb123 Posted June 3, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2020 2 hours ago, barrows said: I have experienced, that despite Rob Watts' claims to the contrary, the Qutest does respond well to power supply upgrades. I designed a power supply for my Brother's Qutest, and voila, the DAC sound quality was nicely improved. This is true of the TT2 as well. I'm inclined to argue that you've yet to really hear how good your Chord DAC can sound if you are still using the stock power supply. johndoe21ro, Middy and barrows 3 Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Middy Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 My Qutest.. same listed info from before .. Swapping the wall wart to a lps1 made a lovely difference. As i couldnt afford the 1.2 i added an Ldovr Dxp1a5dsc. Those Lt3045s added more refinement to the already great power supply. I had the IFI DC ipurifier 2, experimenting a little i got a subtle increase fitting it inbetween them. Ill never be as knowledgeable as the kind above posters but the changes i heard more detail, pleasing to me. Ive been lucky enough to glean the information from the big thread and bought a nuc and used Linux. That was one of the biggest improvements with the source. The DAC i hoped would a one stop leap in SQ but a good DAC keeps on giving as the chain improves. The Qutest has done this in spades. I had asked around for any tweaks people had done but the power supply and regulation is the only one so far.... for the DAC thanks Barrows btw. I work for RollsRoyce Aero so this is maybe my endgame for a good few years but iam glad i have it as its still very pleasurable and feel i got more out than the just ticket price. Good luck gents and thank you Dave Superdad 1 Link to comment
Superdad Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 52 minutes ago, Middy said: I work for Rolls Royce Aero so this is maybe my endgame for a good few years but i am glad i have it as its still very pleasurable and feel i got more out than the just ticket price. Good luck gents and thank you Dave Hi Dave: Rolls Royce Aerospace? Wow, that must be interesting work! Your post sound a bit like a sign-off from the forum. If that's what you intend I just wanted to have the chance to say goodbye and let you know that I have enjoyed your many posts these past 4 years or so. Wishing you good heath and great sound! Warmly, --Alex C. jos 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post Middy Posted June 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 5, 2020 Thanks Alex as kind as ever, a little bit of a sign off as the future is uncertain. A lot more lurking as no more purchasing, 2 years old and hungry comes first, i just can't add much to the conversation sadly, i just hope everyone here is as happy and safe as one can be... Kind regards Dave.. Superdad, Jeremy Anderson, johndoe21ro and 2 others 2 2 1 Link to comment
creativepart Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 Maybe I don't remember I probably don't remember hearing a major difference when I went from the Qutest with the stock PS to the Qutest with the Sbooster PS. I love my Qutest and feeding it via the SoTM SMS 200 Ultra/SPS500 PS. People are always amazed when they hear I'm sure if others heard this combo in my system they'd be amazed at the sound quality. johndoe21ro 1 Analog: Rega P8 > Ortofon Cadenza Black > Bob's Devices 20:1 SUT > EAR 834P Deluxe MM/MC tube phono stage Digital: Shanling ET-3 CD Transport. Streaming via SoTM SMS200 Ultra Neo w/ SPS500 power supply > Chord Hugo TT2 Sound: PS Audio PowerPlant3 > Naim Supernait3 > Harbeth P3ESR Link to comment
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