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Better Roon Endpoints?


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On 1/23/2018 at 10:13 AM, davide256 said:

Wondering if anyone has tried the Oppo 203 or 205 as a Roon endpoint? Built in Roon endpoint support sounds promising.

 

I'm successfully using an Oppo 203 as a Roon endpoint in my home theater system.  I find that it works very well.  Easy.  Sounds great.  (I'm not using MQA or DSD or multichannel - just FLACs made from Redbook CDs.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Today I tried:

 

iPhone X as Roon endpoint > Apple Lightning to USB3 camera adapter > short Curious USB cable > Meridian Explorer > standard optical cable > Chord DAVE

 

To have enough power for the Meridian (and to keep the iPhone charged) I connected the standard Apple SMPS in the extra port on the camera adapter. Note that Meridian is not serving as a DAC but only as a USB to optical converter. It has this functionality. I never understood why btw.

 

Sound quality of this configuration was on par or even a small notch above my normal setup with LPS's and a microRendu. At least I thought so until I disconnected the the USB cable between microRendu and DAVE. This brought things up another notch. I had all apps (except for Roon) killed on the iPhone and mobile data turned off.

 

Things keep surprising me. Now, I realise it can be due tot the very good implementation of the optical input on DAVE (I read somewhere that Rob Watts prefers this input over USB and s/pdif). The nice thing of this setup is that there is no electrical connection between iPhone and DAC. What would replacing the Apple charger with a LPS-1 do? I think I have to search for a DC barrel to USB A or lightning port adapter to find out...

Streamer dCS Network Bridge DAC Chord DAVE Amplifier / DRC Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Speakers Lindemann BL-10 | JL audio E-sub e110 Head-fi and reference Bakoon HPA-21 | Audeze LCD-3 (f) Power and isolation Dedicated power line | Xentek extreme isolation transformer (1KVA, balanced) | Uptone Audio EtherREGEN + Ferrum Hypsos | Sonore OpticalModule + Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 | Jensen CI-1RR Cables Jorma Digital XLR (digital), Grimm Audio SQM RCA (analog), Kimber 8TC + WBT (speakers), custom star-quad with Oyaide connectors (AC), Ferrum (DC) and Ghent (ethernet) Software dCS Mosaic | Tidal | Qobuz

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I have a 2nd hand ISO Regen on the way, am eager to hear if it can further improve iPhone Roon output to USB. And have been using an Ankar battery with the USB3 CCK cable to keep the iPhone battery protected. Overall i’m happy with what I hear below 4khz but there is some edginess above on female vocalists that I hope the ISO Regen will fix. 

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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4 hours ago, skatbelt said:

Things keep surprising me. Now, I realise it can be due tot the very good implementation of the optical input on DAVE (I read somewhere that Rob Watts prefers this input over USB and s/pdif).

 

Yep for all his DACs, not only Dave.

 

Unless you have a completely battery powered USB source (ie iPhone running over Wifi and off batteries ).

 

The reason is leakage currents. He said the galvanic isolation even with Dave’s USB input is not perfect if you have a mains connected source (no high speed USB digital isolators are perfect). TOSlink and a USB powered source are electrically disconnected from mains power, so they complete block leakage currents via the USB input.

 

The same can be applied to most DACs too

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2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Yep for all his DACs, not only Dave.

 

Unless you have a completely battery powered USB source (ie iPhone running over Wifi and off batteries ).

 

The reason is leakage currents. He said the galvanic isolation even with Dave’s USB input is not perfect if you have a mains connected source (no high speed USB digital isolators are perfect). TOSlink and a USB powered source are electrically disconnected from mains power, so they complete block leakage currents via the USB input.

 

The same can be applied to most DACs too

It appears to be running full circle, that the main input to a DAC is Optical or Electrical S/PDIF /AES3 circa 2008. USB is treated by another box, Berkerley Alpha Plus comes to mind, Audiobyte Hydra Z, Mutec MC-3+USB, Audio Fidelity AFIS similar principles. Schiit's EITR doesn't have an AES3 output and their power supply isn't much that to write home about.

 

To substitute USB, Dante has widespread acceptance, but maxes out at 192 and no DSD unless framed by DoP (just a guess on that one). Dante doesn't have a 'consumer' model Ethernet to AES3 rca coax box just yet, Focusrite have the 19in red gear, which is OK for work platform, but "not in my lounge room" with a determined stare that dare not be changed.

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9 minutes ago, One and a half said:

It appears to be running full circle, that the main input to a DAC is Optical or Electrical S/PDIF /AES3 circa 2008. USB is treated by another box, Berkerley Alpha Plus comes to mind, Audiobyte Hydra Z, Mutec MC-3+USB, Audio Fidelity AFIS similar principles. Schiit's EITR doesn't have an AES3 output and their power supply isn't much that to write home about.

 

To substitute USB, Dante has widespread acceptance, but maxes out at 192 and no DSD unless framed by DoP (just a guess on that one). Dante doesn't have a 'consumer' model Ethernet to AES3 rca coax box just yet, Focusrite have the 19in red gear, which is OK for work platform, but "not in my lounge room" with a determined stare that dare not be changed.

 

Ha yes indeed, going around in circles.

 

A WiFi and battery powered USB source is an answer (AN answer, not THE) but not the most convenient - you need to re-charge either the source or it's battery pack and the battery pack is quite noisy itself. And this solution is reliant on a solid WiFi connection too. And WiFi/ RF interference with other gear around (Rob says RF shouldn't be an issue with the USB input/cable if there's no leakage current going through the USB cable, but there's other gear around to consider).

 

Fun fun fun.

 

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41 minutes ago, frederick184 said:

I got tired of having so many boxes.  Using an Auralic Altair as my Roon endpoint, controlled by an iPad Air2.  Sounds great.  

 

Colin

I think what you mean is the Altair is “Roon Ready”, meaning that you can use Roon core server with it and talk UPNP/DLNA to the Altair. Devices like microRendu and the iPhone are “Roon endpoints”, they run Roon clients supporting the RAAT protocol between Roon core server and Roon endpoint. I believe Roon works with most UPNP devices but I’m not sure if you can get RAAT support if the endpoint doesn’t run a Roon client. 

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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2 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I think what you mean is the Altair is “Roon Ready”, meaning that you can use Roon core server with it and talk UPNP/DLNA to the Altair. Devices like microRendu and the iPhone are “Roon endpoints”, they run Roon clients supporting the RAAT protocol between Roon core server and Roon endpoint. I believe Roon works with most UPNP devices but I’m not sure if you can get RAAT support if the endpoint doesn’t run a Roon client. 

That's what I meant.  Thanks for pointing that out :-)

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Newbie here to this topic and I wonder if a few questions can be answered.

 

I own an original SonicOrbiter SE which I purchased to use in my two channel system to “Roofnify” my Linn Klimax DS.

 

In the meanwhile I recently got back to headphone listening and created a small system.  My initial idea was to use a headphone amplifier in my two channel system and use the Linn as a source however now I have decided to seperate the two systems.  I purchased a Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone DAC/amplifier (part of their new signature series) to go with my Sony Z1R/Utopia headphones.

 

My first attempt was to use the Sony Walkman 1Z (also part of the new signature series) as a source to the Sony DAC/Amp - nice results.  Next step was to put the SonicOrbiter SE into the mix and connect it to the Sony DAC/AMP with a generic USB cable.  WOW - extremely impressive performance - better than the Sony WM1Z walkman as a source (and the 1Z is Sony’s TOL unit).

 

I then came across this post and had a quick go with my iPhoneX into the Apple USB/Camera Kit (not gen 3 but rather the previous one) however quite honestly I was not seeing the level of performance as written on this thread.  My demo was rather short however I feel confident in what I heard.  The SonicOrbiter SE outperformed the iPhoneX.

 

Questions:

How is the SonicOrbiter SE with supplied WallWart?  Does it still rate - or does something like a MicroRendu blow it out of the water - for the particular use scenario I need?

 

AND - why am I not getting the kind of performance from my iPhoneX used as a ROON endpoint into the Sony DAC/Amp that others are raving about here - general impressions is that it even beats the MicroRendu.  I do not think the generic USB cable I am using would hold things back  - I used the same cable with the SonicOrbiter SE to the Sony DAC/Amp and had better results.

 

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47 minutes ago, buzzlulu said:

Newbie here to this topic and I wonder if a few questions can be answered.

 

I own an original SonicOrbiter SE which I purchased to use in my two channel system to “Roofnify” my Linn Klimax DS.

 

In the meanwhile I recently got back to headphone listening and created a small system.  My initial idea was to use a headphone amplifier in my two channel system and use the Linn as a source however now I have decided to seperate the two systems.  I purchased a Sony TA-ZH1ES headphone DAC/amplifier (part of their new signature series) to go with my Sony Z1R/Utopia headphones.

 

My first attempt was to use the Sony Walkman 1Z (also part of the new signature series) as a source to the Sony DAC/Amp - nice results.  Next step was to put the SonicOrbiter SE into the mix and connect it to the Sony DAC/AMP with a generic USB cable.  WOW - extremely impressive performance - better than the Sony WM1Z walkman as a source (and the 1Z is Sony’s TOL unit).

 

I then came across this post and had a quick go with my iPhoneX into the Apple USB/Camera Kit (not gen 3 but rather the previous one) however quite honestly I was not seeing the level of performance as written on this thread.  My demo was rather short however I feel confident in what I heard.  The SonicOrbiter SE outperformed the iPhoneX.

 

Questions:

How is the SonicOrbiter SE with supplied WallWart?  Does it still rate - or does something like a MicroRendu blow it out of the water - for the particular use scenario I need?

 

AND - why am I not getting the kind of performance from my iPhoneX used as a ROON endpoint into the Sony DAC/Amp that others are raving about here - general impressions is that it even beats the MicroRendu.  I do not think the generic USB cable I am using would hold things back  - I used the same cable with the SonicOrbiter SE to the Sony DAC/Amp and had better results.

 

To monitor differences in timbre, resolution and micro details, headphones are the way to go. For detecting the artifacts of noise, speakers are better since added noise blurs the soundstage width and depth, makes the middle muddy. That's in my system's behaviour anyway and easy to listen for changes. I use speakers also to compare USB cables/transmission systems since they affect the sound stage (let less/more noise).

 

I suspect in your case, the iPhoneX is noisier for some reason, I used the iPad Pro wireless only and the results weren't too bad at all, but was annoying to have the iPad tethered to cables in the one place, as I use the iPad very much not tethered.

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40 minutes ago, One and a half said:

To monitor differences in timbre, resolution and micro details, headphones are the way to go. For detecting the artifacts of noise, speakers are better since added noise blurs the soundstage width and depth, makes the middle muddy. That's in my system's behaviour anyway and easy to listen for changes. I use speakers also to compare USB cables/transmission systems since they affect the sound stage (let less/more noise).

 

I suspect in your case, the iPhoneX is noisier for some reason, I used the iPad Pro wireless only and the results weren't too bad at all, but was annoying to have the iPad tethered to cables in the one place, as I use the iPad very much not tethered.

 

Yes keeping an iPad/iPhone tethered is a pain.  That is why something like my current Sonicorbiter is a pleasure to use.  Simply sit with my headphones on and control ROON with an untethered iPhone.

 

So - how much better is a MicroRendu over my Sonicorbiter SE???  Is the improvement in quality, in my particular scenario of headphone listening with my Sony DAC/AMP, commensurate with the significant increase in cost?

 

Then, obviously, the next question is:

Microrendu/high quality power supply

vs.

Ultrarendu/iFi PS

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4 minutes ago, buzzlulu said:

However you did not answer the $64,000 question:

 

how much better is a MicroRendu vs. my Sonicorbiter

 

and then

 

Microrendu/high grade PS

Vs

Ultrarendu/low grade PS (ie economical)

 

 

Hehe there's a reason it's a $64,000 question.

 

From personal experience only (I'm just one data point) a microRendu with linear PSU performed better than the ultraRendu with the iFi iPower and better than the sonicOrbiter with anything.

 

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18 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Hehe there's a reason it's a $64,000 question.

 

From personal experience only (I'm just one data point) a microRendu with linear PSU performed better than the ultraRendu with the iFi iPower and better than the sonicOrbiter with anything.

 

Thanks @EM2016, I don't own a xrendu, so didn't comment.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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All of this below from Rob can be applied to other USB DACs, not only his DACs:

 

"But if you run the source from batteries, and have no ground connected to the lap-top, then there are no net currents flowing into Dave, as the isolation capacitance of the lap top to ground is much smaller than the 2 pF from the isolators; in effect you are now completely isolating the source from Dave via the direct USB connection and so no RF currents from the source can be injected into Dave's ground plane. That's why this mode sounds a bit smoother and warmer than mains powering the lap-top."

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-245#post-12729470

 

 

And brighter is not always better (although this is highly subjective / personal taste):

 

"RF noise and distorted currents from the source flowing into the DAC's ground plane. The RF noise inter-modulates with the analogue electronics, creating random noise as a by product, which creates noise floor modulation, and that makes it sound brighter or harder. The correlated or distorted currents very subtly add or subtract to small signals, thus changing the fundamental linearity, which in turn mucks up depth perception."

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/page-764#post-12346556

 

More knowledge shared:

 

1. RF noise. RF noise is a major pain with audio. With analogue electronics, very tiny amounts of RF noise will cause intermodulation distortion with the audio signal, and the intermodulation products is noise floor modulation. The effect is that the noise floor changes with signal level, and the effect is very audible - you perceive it as a brightness to the sound quality. Less noise floor modulation, smoother sound quality. The curious thing about this is that the brain is very sensitive to it, so you can easily hear it. Problem is that many listeners hear the brightness as more detail resolution, and so think it sounds better - but that's another story.
 
2. Correlated current noise. If a tiny current that is signal related but distorted enters the ground plane, then this current will be a source of error, as the current in the ground plane induces small voltages. Now this then adds or subtracts to small signals, thus degrading small signal resolution - and this upsets the brains ability to calculate depth. Now one of the most fascinating things I discovered with Dave is there is no limit to how small this error can be without a degradation in depth perception - so it does not matter how small the error is it will have an impact.
 
So the solution to the above problems is galvanic isolation. This means that RF noise from the source can't get into Dave, and small correlated currents can't get in too. And this approach gave two benefits - much smoother sound quality, and a deeper soundstage.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-82#post-12220009

 

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4 hours ago, One and a half said:

It appears to be running full circle, that the main input to a DAC is Optical or Electrical S/PDIF /AES3 circa 2008.

 

Rob is only one data point of course and I know other great DAC designers that prefer AES3 with their DACs AND the below may only apply to his DAC/s AES3 implementation, but thought I'd share anyway:

 

"I have noticed some posters talking about AES EBU input - this is not the best input IMHO. It will inject RF noise into Dave from the source, and this will make it sound brighter, due to more noise floor modulation. It is very easy to hear this as an improvement (like I initially thought the audiophile USB had a tighter bass) but this is just how RF noise can artificially spice up the sound. Instrument separation and focus will suffer - in the case of digital inputs, the smoother and darker sound (which can easily sound initially less impressive) is the best sound."

 

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-175#post-12527111

 

 

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While SQ with the powerbank powered Allo USBridge was great, the supplied WiFi adapter was too unreliable.

 

To test WiFi reliability (after advice from Miska) I use Roon's up-sampling up to 32bit 768kHz to test robustness.

 

My iPhone's WiFi reception is rock solid and the Allo struggles with even just 192kHz

 

I found a used iPod Touch (6th Gen running the latest iOS 11) that I'll pickup as a Roon Endpoint, so my phone can stay with me (where it belongs). 

 

I can strip it of unnecessary apps and operations and see/hear how it performs.

 

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17 hours ago, davide256 said:

I have a 2nd hand ISO Regen on the way, am eager to hear if it can further improve iPhone Roon output to USB. And have been using an Ankar battery with the USB3 CCK cable to keep the iPhone battery protected. Overall i’m happy with what I hear below 4khz but there is some edginess above on female vocalists that I hope the ISO Regen will fix. 

Thanks for making this thread :)

i’m interessested In the outcome with ISO Regen In the chain.

inspired by this thread I bought the Lighting USB3 Camera adapter and currently usiing it with an IPAD air WiFi only version with Tidal HI-Fi AS source going to my Chord 2Qute. I changed the USB cable to a USB cable with one Ferrit and this sound quite good.

i never thougt I was going to say a WIFI connection could Sound that good.

I am going to try an USB cable with one ferrite In each end if I Can find one.

The only problem: I can’t use my IPAD air when playing Music and I cannot use another Apple device for a remote controller as far as I know.

Thanks all for sharing your experience :)

Regards Monge

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