Better Roon Endpoints?

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

You kind of got me excited with this thread

 

What if I had said an Alexa hologram pops out of your iPhone when using it as a Roon endpoint....

 

Your excitement would have peaked ! :-)

 

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

 

What if I had said an Alexa hologram pops out of your iPhone when using it as a Roon endpoint....

 

Your excitement would have peaked ! :-)

 

especially if she would dance for me......I haven't figured that one out yet.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Ethernet may not PERFECTLY isolate with it's little transformers (capacitive coupling maybe?).

 

So if you add ethernet to your iPhone you might be un-doing the benefits of the battery based USB source? 

 

Nice thing with ethernet is that you can easily go optical and then certainly you get full isolation...

 

Why do you think iPhone or other battery powered devices are low-noise? They have DC-DC converters / switching regulators between battery and other components, those are are essentially SMPS. Traditional linear regulators are too lossy and thus generate too much heat in many cases (and you cannot crank up the voltate with such anyway).

 

[asdf1000]

51 minutes ago, Miska said:

Why do you think iPhone or other battery powered devices are low-noise?

 

No, definitely didn't say (or mean) the iPhone has low noise. I said (or meant) the USBridge probably has lowerER output noise than the iPhone (by design) hence my interest in trying it.

 

I know my TP-Link powerbank outputs ~ 300mV noise - according to a TP-Link Engineer. Not good at all but that's where you hope the endpoint has low noise regulators (like the USBridge...)

 

51 minutes ago, Miska said:

Nice thing with ethernet is that you can easily go optical and then certainly you get full isolation...

 

Tried that before. Even had the switching regulators replaced with ultra low noise linear regulators in both FMC's and the DAC side powered by linear PSU.

 

The DAC side FMC is still coupled to mains power - unless you power that with a battery. You might as well use that same battery to use power the endpoint fully and stay fully isolated off mains power completely?

 

Further to this, see Rob Watt's: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-612#post-13759342

 

"Just because a source uses optical does not guarantee perfect isolation, as the mains provides a RF connection path.... but a battery powered source via USB does provide effectively perfect isolation"

 

Also note, I'm not making any sweeping claims here - just want to try a better battery based USB source, and on paper at least, the USBridge should be better than the iPhone... then leave the rest up to my ears of course.

[beerandmusic]

50 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Nice thing with ethernet is that you can easily go optical and then certainly you get full isolation...

 

I don't know, but my thinking the way this industry is, that someone would just say there is a problem with the fiber optic reciever feeding the dac....and how inexpensive would it be to have a dac with an fiber optic input?

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

someone would just say there is a problem with the fiber optic reciever feeding the dac....

 

Not that I'm saying it's a problem, but it's a fact that the receiver FMC is still coupled to mains power... unless you power that with a battery.. but why not just use that same battery to power the USB source (if you can)?

[beerandmusic]

4 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Not that I'm saying it's a problem, but it's a fact that the receiver FMC is still coupled to mains power... unless you power that with a battery.. but why not just use that same battery to power the USB source?

 

I am not following you here, but why not just a switch with fiber output directly to a dac with a fiber input....forget usb?

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

directly to a dac with a fiber input....forget usb?

 

Ha that's the easiest question here. You can probably count such DACs available on the planet, on one hand?

 

Let's not talk about the price of those DACs..

 

The USD6500 Playback Designs Merlot would be top of my wish list... and before you ask, no Alexa :-)

[beerandmusic]

1 minute ago, Em2016 said:

 

Ha that's the easiest question here. You can probably count such DACs available on the planet, on one hand?

 

Let's not talk about the price of those DACs..

 

The USD6500 Playback Designs Merlot would be top of my wish list...

haha...i just started a new thread asking....

 

I would think it should be fairly inexpensive to add such a design as you can buy reciever's relatively cheap.

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

haha...i just started a new thread asking....

 

 

Haha. If there's one thing you love more than Alexa, it's starting a new thread!

 

You've had some good discussions started before though. We all learn from each others experiences (and the experts that are around here).

 

Anyway, there's trade offs with every solution. I'm just trying to explore this wireless USB source option (for the first time) and leave the rest to ears.

 

 

 

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I would think it should be fairly inexpensive to add such a design as you can buy reciever's relatively cheap.

 

It's not any easier or cheaper than ethernet interfaces, as barrows discusses in the other thread. The same challenges apply, especially with the high sample rates (DSD128 and above).

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Haha. If there's one thing you love more than Alexa, it's starting a new thread!

 

You've had some good discussions started before though. We all learn from each others experiences (and the experts that are around here).

 

 

well if the darn engineers will come up with something that "suits my fancy", i would probably go back into hiding off this board....my guess is that we are 1 year out from something i can live with, and 3 years out for something that is alexa enabled that i can live with....until then, i can give alexa commands to jriver on what to play with "house band" to my nt503 (toslink for flac and usb or dlna for dsd).

[beerandmusic]

^^^ I really like the idea though that Miska presented.....fiber ethernet (you get dsd over optics)!

sounds awesome on paper....ok engineers get busy!

[beerandmusic]

6 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

It's not any easier or cheaper than ethernet interfaces, as barrows discusses in the other thread. The same challenges apply, especially with the high sample rates (DSD128 and above).

if you can get DSD256 from a cheap used iphone, i think there is always hope....

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

if you can get DSD256 from a cheap used iphone, i think there is always hope....

 

For sure we'll get there. Not quickly and not cheap so quickly. Everything gets cheaper and better over time. Just look at the progress of the XMOS USB interface these past 5 years.

[miguelito]

On 1/6/2018 at 8:33 PM, R1200CL said:

And this iPhone works like any other endpoint ?  Meaning I still can use my iPad or PC and play from Roon ?

I don't think this is the case. For iOS devices, the device itself is the only thing that sees it as an endpoint, as far as I've tried.

 

To answer original poster's question, I have tried all manners of computer connectivity - have a mini with a linear PS (Uptone JS-2 + MMK board). I have tried USB regenerators, Auralic Aries (LPS version), and microRendu. Of these solutions the microRendu (+LPS1) was hands-down the best sounding. 

 

I have now moved from EMMLabs to a dCS Rossini + external clock, partly to do away with all the knick knack boxes and have one solution that works. I absolutely love the sound. I have not compared this to the microRendu to Rossini, but frankly I won't. I'm done with tinkering, this works great.

[asdf1000]

12 minutes ago, miguelito said:

I don't think this is the case. For iOS devices, the device itself is the only thing that sees it as an endpoint, as far as I've tried.

 

Nope. Turn off "private zone" and your Core will see your iOS device, as long as Roon Remote app is open on your iOS device. As long as music is playing you won't lose connection to your iOS device (so enable radio to keep the music playing)

[jcn3]

17 hours ago, Miska said:

One confusing thing with WASAPI sometimes is if you use Windows Remote Desktop (RDP protocol) to remote control the computer where your audio device is. Remote Desktop attempts to take over audio and forward it to the controlling remote end, this can make WASAPI devices seemingly disappear. However, ASIO is not affected by this because Windows itself doesn't understand anything about ASIO.

 

Using VNC for remote control doesn't create this WASAPI problem...

miska -- i'm sure you know this, but maybe there's some other issue to which you're referring. before connecting via rdp, if you go click on show options > local resources > configure remote audio settings > play on remote computer that problem should go away.

[LarryMagoo]

I use my iPhone X in my Car that lets me connect to my Kenwood Apple Play system.  I use a 6" short Audioquest  Cinnamon cable that goes between my Kenwood (USB input) and my iPhone with a AQ Jitterbug inline as well....really blown away by the sound quality....  

[R1200CL]

45 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

I use my iPhone X in my Car that lets me connect to my Kenwood Apple Play system.  I use a 6" short Audioquest  Cinnamon cable that goes between my Kenwood (USB input) and my iPhone with a AQ Jitterbug inline as well....really blown away by the sound quality....  

 

Yoy may like to read this:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/11/better-in-car-bluetooth-audio-with-audioquests-beetle-dac/

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/with-the-beetle-audioquests-199-dac-goes-home-and-away/

[R1200CL]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

Why do you think iPhone or other battery powered devices are low-noise? They have DC-DC converters / switching regulators between battery and other components, those are are essentially SMPS. Traditional linear regulators are too lossy and thus generate too much heat in many cases (and you cannot crank up the voltate with such anyway).

 

At some time I will test with iPhone X wireless charging vs using Lightning cable (with power bank vs SMPS charger) into the CCK ?

 

I really do hope Roon will do an iOS Brigde, and add support for older iOS devices.

I think this is a very good start for people to start with streaming using an extremely cheap endpoint.

 

And of cause with the Belkin Rockstar you not even need a DAC. Just a 3,5 mm to RCA cable, and you’re up an running withe your very old preamp.

 

Will we see NAA for iOS ? ?

 

[miguelito]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

At some time I will test with iPhone X wireless charging vs using Lightning cable (with power bank vs SMPS charger) into the CCK ?

I would not be surprised if the output is much quieter with lightning charging. Wireless charging works by using a high frequency magnetic field to induce a voltage on a coil.

[LarryMagoo]

43 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

Yoy may like to read this:

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/11/better-in-car-bluetooth-audio-with-audioquests-beetle-dac/

 

http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/12/with-the-beetle-audioquests-199-dac-goes-home-and-away/

 

For the time being I really like my wired connection...not a BT fan at the moment for my Car at least...

[R1200CL]

24 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

For the time being I really like my wired connection...not a BT fan at the moment for my Car at least...

 

I totally agree. I was more suggesting  you to maybe add to DAC instead of the Jbug. ?

[LarryMagoo]

Love to add the Red Dragonfly...but the Jack outlet would not work.....unless there is a 1/8th Inch Stereo Jack to USB...I wonder if there is...I'd get the Dragonfly in a heartbeat...