UltraRendu vs an expensive music server

[beerandmusic]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

  The less "stuff" the better, often at least.

 

 

agreed...less is better....forget the adapter with extra cables...just get a streamer dac (less cables, less hardware, less power supplies, less clocks, less manufacturers).

 

network in audio out

[ShawnC]

10 hours ago, KingRex said:

I don't understand why there is any other stereo manufacturer than McIntosh. They make everything perfect.  If you own anything else you got less than you could have.  

Of course you have to first like the signature sound of McIntosh.  Many don't like the sound of distortion from tube amps/preamps.  I like the sound from a tube guitar amplifier but not reproduced again by a power amp, YMMV.

[rickca]

11 hours ago, vortecjr said:

Innuos was an industry partner of Small Green Computer and they were licensing Vortexbox up until recently.

To counter this 'been there, done that' attitude, have a look at the conclusion of this review of the Zenith MK2

http://hifipig.com/innuos-zenith-mk2/

 

I have both a Zenith SE and an ultraRendu.  I enjoy them both.  The SE is much better, period.  

[davide256]

13 hours ago, barrows said:

No, respectfully, you do not fully understand what you are talking about.  There is no "other camp".  At Sonore we made super trick, high end servers, running a fully custom stripped down OS, with fully optimized power supplies (my final server was completely off the grid powered by LiFePO4 batteries with multiple discrete linear regulators), and custom audiophile USB boards, and specially selected MoBos, etc, etc, the whole enchilada...  Turns out the microRendu with a very good power supply was such  step forward from any server we never made servers again!  and the ultraRendu and Signature Rendu SE are both a lot better than that.

A full blown music server has so many problems to overcome it is just not worth it, and it is so much easier and more cost effective to put together a system based on ethernet streaming, and such a system performs with better sound quality across the board.

The Ethernet tweakers notwithstanding, for the last three years Sonore has put together a demo system for RMAF based around a Rendu with excellent power supply, a standard Synology NAS (Mac Mini last year) a standard router, and standard BJC CAT 6A ethernet cables with no unusual Ethernet tweaks and we achieved a sound quality much better than we could ever achieve with a server.  Audiophiles will always try to improve things, and make money off of "accessories", but the fact is, most of the network tweaks we hear about have little to no effect on system performance, and are unnecessary.

 

The problem with commercial computer gear is the noise, both radiated RFI, and electrically (over wires) transmitted EMI.  Ethernet audio distribution removes these problems from the proximity of the audio system, with a just a simple, elegant, purpose built, ultra low noise, high end quality device (the Renderer) in the audio system, and all the commercial computer gear in another location in the home.  

 

From an engineering cost efficiency, I believe you are correct under $2k. However listening to a source like the Innuos Zenith Mk II has given me pause, to allow that over $2k

you can see the appropriate engineering attention paid to the one box issues needed to compete with separate renderer/ file server. Unfortunately there are quite a few servers without good design practice in market, muddying the waters.

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

To counter this 'been there, done that' attitude, have a look at the conclusion of this review of the Zenith MK2

http://hifipig.com/innuos-zenith-mk2/

 

I have both a Zenith SE and an ultraRendu.  I enjoy them both.  The SE is much better, period.  

I'm not sure what prompted you to respond in this way. If you want to use an all in one as your source unfortunately you need to go to this extent. This is exactly what I have explained before and yes been there done that. Another example of this approach is Aurender. I'm sure you're happy with your solution and I take no issue with that. I decided to move away from a tweaked out off the shelf motherboard solutions and I really have no regrets. We are able to offer systems to customers in a much more affordable range with fanatic sound quality. Have you heard the Sonore Signature Rendu SE?   

 

On a side note: If Innous or anyone else for that matter is using Vortexbox and not paying SGC a license for it then its use makes it an illegal product.

[KingRex]

The  problem people seem to have is manufacturer reps stomping around on a people forum yarping their magistracy over all others.  Its unsophisticated, plebeian speak.  It's just plain boorish and really drives a wedge between sellers and buyers.  Barrows engenders no desire to try a Sonore product from me.  Maybe his pious attitude impresses others but the reaction to his speak on this forum should cause pause for introspection.  

[vortecjr]

5 minutes ago, KingRex said:

The  problem people seem to have is manufacturer reps stomping around on a people forum yarping their magistracy over all others.  Its unsophisticated, plebeian speak.  It's just plain boorish and really drives a wedge between sellers and buyers.  Barrows engenders no desire to try a Sonore product from me.  Maybe his pious attitude impresses others but the reaction to his speak on this forum should cause pause for introspection.  

Understood and point well taken. Please understand I only came in because someone mischaracterized what we are doing.  

[sockpit]

This is one of the more useful threads I’ve followed in a long while . . . 

 

Helps me understand better what I have, and what a move away from it might mean..  I’m not technically competent, just a follower in these parts.

[ajm]

5 hours ago, vortecjr said:

I'm not sure what prompted you to respond in this way. If you want to use an all in one as your source unfortunately you need to go to this extent. This is exactly what I have explained before and yes been there done that. Another example of this approach is Aurender. I'm sure you're happy with your solution and I take no issue with that. I decided to move away from a tweaked out off the shelf motherboard solutions and I really have no regrets. We are able to offer systems to customers in a much more affordable range with fanatic sound quality. Have you heard the Sonore Signature Rendu SE?   

 

On a side note: If Innous or anyone else for that matter is using Vortexbox and not paying SGC a license for it then its use makes it an illegal product.

Would be useful to see  Chris Connacher's review of Signature Rendu SE

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, ajm said:

Would be useful to see  Chris Connacher's review of Signature Rendu SE

 

I myself has been quite septic to the benefits of the SRSE vs the UltraRendu powered by a Uptone Audio LPS-1.2, and proper JSSG DC and Ethernet cabling.

 

However @barrows has given some quite convincing statements and explanations of why it’s better etc. 

 

I find it very expensive, but if I ever got a chance to try it, I will.

I may even purchase one. 

 

I think you don’t need @The Computer Audiophile to review it, as I think Google will give you a couple of reviews.

 

Of cause Chris, I wouldn’t mind you do a review comparing those two setups. 

I don’t think it has been done before. 

[barrows]

2 hours ago, ajm said:

Would be useful to see  Chris Connacher's review of Signature Rendu SE

Chris will have a review at some point, you would have to ask him about that!  In the mean time I would suggest taking a look at the Signature Rendu SE thread as there are some owner impressions there:

 

BTW, if one likes this kind of thing, Rachel Podger's new recording of Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons" from Channel Classics is sounding fantastic on my system as I type this (in DSD 128)!  Highly recommended...

[The Computer Audiophile]

The review is coming soon. 

[jacquesr]

Before midnight?

[R1200CL]

@barrows

 

Could the Signature SE be even better with a Ethernet stage similar or equal to the one John Swenson is designing inside the new switch. 

 

How about a fiber input as well ?

 

Have a AES/EBU outbut board been considdered ?

If Sonore could add a SPDIF output for us that have expensive DAC’s without USB interface, that would be something. 

And if you’re able to this better than the SU-1......?

 

Sonore allready have a condensed SU-1 named ultraDigital, so isn’t this the next step in evolution ?

 

 

[barrows]

Hi R1200CL,  On question 1, I am not really sure what the question is about?  The UpTone switch is not yet released, and I have no more details on it than you do.  But apparently its function is to provide total isolation from noise coming over the Ethernet connection, so essentially an isolator for Ethernet.  Of course secondarily, it has to have the lowest noise possible on its output to be of any value, so I am sure JS paid a lot of attention to that.  There is nothing I am aware of which could be added to the Signature Rendu SE to make the Ethernet receiver any better, as we already employ an ultra low noise design approach with multiple ultra low noise regulators and we already use a "femto" clock to govern it.

 

Right now, it appears that the jury is out on optical connections for us, and some users have reported no advantage, although in theory it makes sense.  Some have even reported worse sound with fiber, but that seems really odd to me, perhaps an implementation issue.  Of course adding additional components and their power supplies can always add problems (FMCs) so how it is done is likely very important.  So, never say never.   

 

As to SPDIF, the Signature Rendu SE was conceived specifically to be the best USB source possible, and we feel we have come as close to that as is possible.  Something with SPDIF/AES output would be a different product, and would require much more complexity.  Complexity often lowers performance, unless historic efforts are made in implementation: historic efforts of implementation are possible, but the drawback is expense.  

If we made another version of the SRse, with SPDIF/AES and USB, and we did it right, I would expect at least a $1000.00 increase in retail pricet, as adding SPDIF/AES is not trivial and would require two additional clocks with their individual supplies and a lot more circuitry.  It seems silly to me to add all that extra expense, and then have users who only need USB to pay the extra for it.  Instead we offer the ultraDigital as you note, for those who must use SPDIF/AES.

Personally, while I accept that some DACs do work better via the SPDIF input (because their USB input implementation is crap), I am no fan of SPDIF and its technical limitations.  Better performance is possible via USB, ultimately, (but again it does depend on implementation).  And of course, USB allows for us to support PCM to 768 and up to DSD 512, which we feel is an advantage for many users who like to oversample in software.

 

I have worked in product development for many years, and the one thing I have learned is that a manufacturer can never produce a product which will be perfectly suited to the needs of all users, this is one thing manufacturers just have to accept, especially if their goal is the highest possible performance.  Features wise, I am usually in favor of less features, and more perfection.  The phrase: "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind here.  The Signature Rendu SE was designed to be the "Master" of Ethernet-USB sources, and it does very, very, well at that.  Of course I still want a car with an espresso machine in the dash, but then again that car will not win any F1 races!

 

By the way, the previous Rendu product, the SSR (Sonore Signature Rendu) has SPDIF/I2S output, and performs very well up to PCM 384 and DSD 128.  This is dis-continued, but their may be deals to be had on the used market for this if one is looking for an Ethernet-SPDIF device.

 

 

[KingRex]

Due to a personal conversation most people won't quite get this but, a well put response Barrows.  Thanks. 

[Superdad]

@barrows: An espresso machine in the dash of your car?  That’s brilliant!  I totally want one.  Where to dispose of the grounds though?  

[jaaptina]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

@barrows: An espresso machine in the dash of your car?  That’s brilliant!  I totally want one.  Where to dispose of the grounds though?  

I think you should ask Barrows to incorporate features you absolutely can't do without. Like a grinder or a steamer. Then we can join into the discussion about quality versus features. Personally I really want Barrows to add the milk steamer. Do I need to add the WAF? 

[jvvita]

On 4/20/2018 at 11:52 PM, vortecjr said:

Anyway, these approaches are very similar in software and hardware to what we use to do a few year ago. We have a lot of experience with them and we feel very comfortable discussing the pros and cons of each.

 

Since I am seriously considering the SignatureRendu vs an Innuos Zennith Mark3, could you please elaborate on the technology and pros and cons?

 

Please consider I use RoonServer on a Qnap NAS (so the Rendu would be on RoonReady), I would use optical network connection, and my DAC is PSAudio DirectStream.