UltraRendu vs an expensive music server

[R1200CL]

@KingRex

If of any interest:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm

 

 

[asdf1000]

14 hours ago, KingRex said:

EM2016 has really made me think of something. Does my computer actually admit any sort of RFI / Emi or other noise polltion  into the air when it is being fed by a linear power supply

 

The ultraRendu is also a computer.

 

But if using Roon or Audirvana (for example) the ultraRendu isn't decoding to PCM or DSD - this decoding is done by the upstream server (which can be on the other side of the house, far away). So you would expect CPU usage to be lower with this lower powered endpoint (computer) close to the DAC input. The difference in CPU usage would be even larger if the server is doing CPU intensive up-sampling or other DSP...

 

Whether or not this lower CPU usage close to the DAC (and other RF sensitive gear) results in better sound quality - best to try and judge with your ears.

 

I'm no expert but I've learnt a lot from talking to the designers of my DACs. If you can, I would ask for their thoughts. Who would know better than the designers of your own gear?

 

[hurka]

50 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@KingRex

If of any interest:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm

 

 

"I then decided to try an UpTone Audio ISO REGEN powered by Uptone Audio’s UltraCap™ LPS-1 with the Signature Rendu SE. The sound was now warmer with no brightness or emphasis of the upper midrange. Unfortunately, the excellent detail rendition of the Signature Rendu SE was lost with a reduction of soundstage size. While I have previously found the ISO REGEN / UltraCap™ LPS-1 to be very effective products, this application did not sound very appealing to me."
Read more at https://www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm#vx4p8uzbSuKuDCEH.99

Lost soundstage because lps1 !

feed from sps 500 7v , and iso r. usb input  5v - sps500 lt3045 combo, than enjoy !

[One and a half]

35 minutes ago, hurka said:

"I then decided to try an UpTone Audio ISO REGEN powered by Uptone Audio’s UltraCap™ LPS-1 with the Signature Rendu SE. The sound was now warmer with no brightness or emphasis of the upper midrange. Unfortunately, the excellent detail rendition of the Signature Rendu SE was lost with a reduction of soundstage size. While I have previously found the ISO REGEN / UltraCap™ LPS-1 to be very effective products, this application did not sound very appealing to me."
Read more at https://www.audiostream.com/content/audiophile-conundrum-sonore-vs-sotm#vx4p8uzbSuKuDCEH.99

Lost soundstage because lps1 !

feed from sps 500 7v , and iso r. usb input  5v - sps500 lt3045 combo, than enjoy !

Lost soundstage due to common mode noise would be a place to start.

[R1200CL]

On 1/6/2018 at 6:19 PM, KingRex said:

So much is being written about the Sonore products.  There are a lot of comparison to the the SOtM units.  Has anyone compared a UltraRendu to something such as a purpose built computer with linear power supplies everyone is building here.  I have as such.  I have the Mojo Audio server with Mojo Linear power supply.  I have upgraded it to Server 2016 with AO in Ultra Mode.  It kicks butt as far as I know.  But, I keep getting hassled by a salesman who just loves the Sonore.  I am wondering, how good is the product.  Is it great for the price and ends there, or is it as good or better than all the other units from Lampizator SK, Antipodes, Aurender, Antipodes.  Has anyone done a comparison.  Please point me to the link, or let me know your thoughts.  Thanks

 

So have you tried the UltraRendu yet ?

 

And how about adding http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/ to your server ? Seems also as a cheap and good upgrade. There is a tread about it here at CA.

 

[Ron Scubadiver]

One can always spend more.  I have moved from seeing a point of diminishing returns to a point of no returns.  It might sound different, but is it really better?

[davide256]

13 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

One can always spend more.  I have moved from seeing a point of diminishing returns to a point of no returns.  It might sound different, but is it really better?

Depends on your ear training and audio "DNA".  Can you taste tannin's? 

 

[Ron Scubadiver]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

Depends on your ear training and audio "DNA".  Can you taste tannin's? 

 

Tannins, like in wine, I believe so.  I have this theory that certain things people say they hear like inner detail or better dynamics may be colorations.  In other words, these things are real and audible, but not what the recording engineer intended.   There may not actually be more inner detail, only the illusion of more.  Perhaps I just like a laid back sound.  Once I had a Dragonfly 1.2 and sent it back because I found it fatiguing.  I get better sound out of modestly priced DAC's with AK chips.  

[sockpit]

I appreciate the original question, however “crude” it might have been posed.

 

I run a mR 1.4 powered by an LPS-1 powered by one rail of a JS-2 into my Exogal Comet.  It sounds very good.

 

Exogal is releasing a new product, which they call a “streaming hub”.  It is a dedicated streamer/renderer to go with their Comet/Ion PowerDac.  It will, I’m confident be a nice product, but I wonder just how close my mRendu setup gets me to such a purpose built, full-size streamer by a company with considerable experience in the industry.

 

It would be a shame to lay out $1500-$2000 only to find that the mR with quality power supply was just as good or better.  Problem is: brick and mortar dealers for Exogal brand are not easy to find.  I’d like to try before I buy.

 

Knowing how the Sonore rendus stack up generally to quality streamers, however difficult the generalization, would be helpful.  Do they compete with the best 2k products or are we, say, 80% tod nirvana?

[davide256]

14 hours ago, sockpit said:

I appreciate the original question, however “crude” it might have been posed.

 

I run a mR 1.4 powered by an LPS-1 powered by one rail of a JS-2 into my Exogal Comet.  It sounds very good.

 

Exogal is releasing a new product, which they call a “streaming hub”.  It is a dedicated streamer/renderer to go with their Comet/Ion PowerDac.  It will, I’m confident be a nice product, but I wonder just how close my mRendu setup gets me to such a purpose built, full-size streamer by a company with considerable experience in the industry.

 

It would be a shame to lay out $1500-$2000 only to find that the mR with quality power supply was just as good or better.  Problem is: brick and mortar dealers for Exogal brand are not easy to find.  I’d like to try before I buy.

 

Knowing how the Sonore rendus stack up generally to quality streamers, however difficult the generalization, would be helpful.  Do they compete with the best 2k products or are we, say, 80% tod nirvana?

And the Metrum Ambre is also coming out...

[barrows]

On 1/6/2018 at 10:19 AM, KingRex said:

So much is being written about the Sonore products.  There are a lot of comparison to the the SOtM units.  Has anyone compared a UltraRendu to something such as a purpose built computer with linear power supplies everyone is building here.  I have as such.  I have the Mojo Audio server with Mojo Linear power supply.  I have upgraded it to Server 2016 with AO in Ultra Mode.  It kicks butt as far as I know.  But, I keep getting hassled by a salesman who just loves the Sonore.  I am wondering, how good is the product.  Is it great for the price and ends there, or is it as good or better than all the other units from Lampizator SK, Antipodes, Aurender, Antipodes.  Has anyone done a comparison.  Please point me to the link, or let me know your thoughts.  Thanks

At Sonore we used to make "expensive music servers", then introduced the microRendu which changed the audio world for us.  We immediately found that a "music server" in the audio system was at a huge disadvantage sound quality wise, vs. a low powered, purpose built component (the micro, and subsequent ultra and Signature models).  Since then, Sonore has stopped making servers, as we have realized that the "server" approach is flawed, and we have focused on making high performance Ethernet Renderer which perform well above the level of even the most expensive and sophisticated "servers".

[ElviaCaprice]

Then there is the opposing camp, that realize your just pushing the problem further downstream with a renderer, trying to limit/correct the damage that has occurred upsteam.  Thus the recent explosion of upscale servers (and switches) with custom mobos, power supplies and even clocking, which with a bit of DIY have been preceded (see sCLK EX) to a point (mobo compromises), cost $1500-2k plus power supply.   Results, best SQ yet.

Keep it simple, go to the source.

[ElviaCaprice]

On 1/10/2018 at 1:18 AM, Em2016 said:

 

The ultraRendu is also a computer.

 

But if using Roon or Audirvana (for example) the ultraRendu isn't decoding to PCM or DSD - this decoding is done by the upstream server (which can be on the other side of the house, far away). So you would expect CPU usage to be lower with this lower powered endpoint (computer) close to the DAC input. The difference in CPU usage would be even larger if the server is doing CPU intensive up-sampling or other DSP...

 

Whether or not this lower CPU usage close to the DAC (and other RF sensitive gear) results in better sound quality - best to try and judge with your ears.

 

I'm no expert but I've learnt a lot from talking to the designers of my DACs. If you can, I would ask for their thoughts. Who would know better than the designers of your own gear?

 

 

Problem with asking the DAC designer is that their interests/views can often be scewed.  Though interesting and worth hearing from, I take them with eyes squinted.  Best to hear for yourself or from other proven like minded audiophiles.

[asdf1000]

27 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

 

Problem with asking the DAC designer is that their interests/views can often be scewed.  Though interesting and worth hearing from, I take them with eyes squinted.  Best to hear for yourself or from other proven like minded audiophiles.

 

Agreed, hence my "Whether or not this lower CPU usage close to the DAC (and other RF sensitive gear) results in better sound quality - best to try and judge with your ears"

[barrows]

38 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Then there is the opposing camp, that realize your just pushing the problem further downstream with a renderer, trying to limit/correct the damage that has occurred upsteam.  Thus the recent explosion of upscale servers (and switches) with custom mobos, power supplies and even clocking, which with a bit of DIY have been preceded (see sCLK EX) to a point (mobo compromises), cost $1500-2k plus power supply.   Results, best SQ yet.

Keep it simple, go to the source.

No, respectfully, you do not fully understand what you are talking about.  There is no "other camp".  At Sonore we made super trick, high end servers, running a fully custom stripped down OS, with fully optimized power supplies (my final server was completely off the grid powered by LiFePO4 batteries with multiple discrete linear regulators), and custom audiophile USB boards, and specially selected MoBos, etc, etc, the whole enchilada...  Turns out the microRendu with a very good power supply was such  step forward from any server we never made servers again!  and the ultraRendu and Signature Rendu SE are both a lot better than that.

A full blown music server has so many problems to overcome it is just not worth it, and it is so much easier and more cost effective to put together a system based on ethernet streaming, and such a system performs with better sound quality across the board.

The Ethernet tweakers notwithstanding, for the last three years Sonore has put together a demo system for RMAF based around a Rendu with excellent power supply, a standard Synology NAS (Mac Mini last year) a standard router, and standard BJC CAT 6A ethernet cables with no unusual Ethernet tweaks and we achieved a sound quality much better than we could ever achieve with a server.  Audiophiles will always try to improve things, and make money off of "accessories", but the fact is, most of the network tweaks we hear about have little to no effect on system performance, and are unnecessary.

 

The problem with commercial computer gear is the noise, both radiated RFI, and electrically (over wires) transmitted EMI.  Ethernet audio distribution removes these problems from the proximity of the audio system, with a just a simple, elegant, purpose built, ultra low noise, high end quality device (the Renderer) in the audio system, and all the commercial computer gear in another location in the home.  

[KingRex]

I am not hearing this from people who own both.  I have heard the Sonore in their minds is very good.   A purpose computer implimented properly goes further.  It is  more money,  and more effort, but ultimate more musical.  Hats off to Sonore for a fine product that is affordable.  That is an accomplishment. 

[barrows]

6 minutes ago, KingRex said:

I am not hearing this from people who own both.  I have heard the Sonore in their minds is very good.   A purpose computer implimented properly goes further.  It is  more money,  and more effort, but ultimate more musical.

The above is incorrect.  I do not know how I can state it more plainly.  At Sonore we worked for years building SOTA music servers, in fact the features which one sees in products like Antipodes are all things we did long ago.  We abandoned the server approach because it was limited in sound quality, period.  Ethernet distributed audio is superior to using an all in one server set up, period.

Now either approach needs to be implemented well, but when you have a very good server, and a very good Ethernet set up, Ethernet wins easily for best sound quality.

[firedog]

37 minutes ago, barrows said:

The above is incorrect.  I do not know how I can state it more plainly.  At Sonore we worked for years building SOTA music servers, in fact the features which one sees in products like Antipodes are all things we did long ago.  We abandoned the server approach because it was limited in sound quality, period.  Ethernet distributed audio is superior to using an all in one server set up, period.

Now either approach needs to be implemented well, but when you have a very good server, and a very good Ethernet set up, Ethernet wins easily for best sound quality.

People and reviewers who have heard the better Innuos and Antipodes products disagree with you. Maybe both approaches can work. Maybe Sonore is better at making renderers than it was at making servers. Several users of the Innuos MKII SE say it is the best digital they’ve heard, including having heard or owned Sonore products.

Your use of the word “period” as if this is a settled issue is incorrect. I doubt you have even heard some of the products you say with certainty aren’t as good or better than Sonore products. 

[R1200CL]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

Innuos and Antipodes products disagree with you.

 

What prices are we looking at here ?

[firedog]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

 

What prices are we looking at here ?

We are looking at very expensive products. But the above statement was made as an absolute, not as something relative to price.

[vortecjr]

ElviaCaprice

2 hours ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Then there is the opposing camp, that realize your just pushing the problem further downstream with a renderer, trying to limit/correct the damage that has occurred upsteam.  Thus the recent explosion of upscale servers (and switches) with custom mobos, power supplies and even clocking, which with a bit of DIY have been preceded (see sCLK EX) to a point (mobo compromises), cost $1500-2k plus power supply.   Results, best SQ yet.

Keep it simple, go to the source.

That is a mischaracterization of what we are going. The only thing we are doing is isolating the server from the endpoint over the network and making the best possible endpoint to connect to your audio gear.  

[barrows]

28 minutes ago, firedog said:

Your use of the word “period” as if this is a settled issue is incorrect. I doubt you have even heard some of the products you say with certainty aren’t as good or better than Sonore products. 

I think I specifically said "Renderer" many times, purposefully, to emphasize that I am not trying to talk about Sonore vs Servers.  I am talking generally about Ethernet Renderers vs. Servers, and not Sonore specifically.

 

Yes "Period" because this issue IS totally settled as far as I am concerned.  I have done the listening, I have learned and understand the technicalities at work here, and I have confirmed my experiences with some measurements as well.  That is my entire point of answering here, after all. The OP posed a question, and I have answered it.  I am very aware of the "technology" of Antipodes and Innuous, and have heard the results.  The facts here cannot be changed by "magic" servers.  There will always be audiophiles who believe more is better, that more boxes, and more complicated components have to sound better.  Instead, I actually listen, and given the chance to simplify i will always choose the simpler path.  The less "stuff" the better, often at least.

There is nothing one can "magically" do in a server which will allow it to overcome the inherent limitations in the approach.

[KingRex]

 

I heard an interesting software demo at my house a couple weeks ago. It was a plain Jane Apple computer no frills nothing special to it. The software was contained on the ram and operated from there. It was amazingly quiet. Once that software is put onto they'e up and coming hardware, it will rival anyting out there.  

 

My point is computer audio is a whole lot more than a micro board Ram CPU and power supply.

[KingRex]

You know what is real fun?   Listen to the analog guys cry how their TT is the best technology.  Owe yea, the amp guys too.  And the preamp guys.  Holly smokes, I almost forgot the cable guys. And speakers.   I don't understand why there is any other stereo manufacturer than McIntosh. They make everything perfect.  If you own anything else you got less than you could have.  

[vortecjr]

26 minutes ago, firedog said:

People and reviewers who have heard the better Innuos and Antipodes products disagree with you. Maybe both approaches can work. Maybe Sonore is better at making renderers than it was at making servers. Several users of the Innuos MKII SE say it is the best digital they’ve heard, including having heard or owned Sonore products.

Your use of the word “period” as if this is a settled issue is incorrect. I doubt you have even heard some of the products you say with certainty aren’t as good or better than Sonore products. 

For the record and for transparency:

 

Innuos was an industry partner of Small Green Computer and they were licensing Vortexbox up until recently. Sonore had no direct dealings with Innuos.

 

Sonore is a industry partner of Small Green Computer and we are licensing Software from them. I'm also on the development team for Vortexbox and Sonicorbiter.   

 

Antipodes is an industry partner of Small Green Computer and they are licensing Software from them. Sonore is involved in this partnership. 

 

SOtM was an industry partner of Small Green Computer and Sonore and they were licensing Software and hardware from us. We also acted as distributors/dealers for SOtM until I cut ties with them.  

 

Barrows is not involved in the above partnerships except that he works as a design/build consultant to Sonore. 

 

Anyway, these approaches are very similar in software and hardware to what we use to do a few year ago. We have a lot of experience with them and we feel very comfortable discussing the pros and cons of each.